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Dan Agin

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Stupidity, Gay Marriage, and the Evolution of Religion

Posted: 12/9/09

Nowhere is the gulf between science and religion more evident and more enormous than when we confront the issues of sexuality, sexual orientation, gender identity, and homosexuality. It seems bizarre that in the 21st century so many people in America and elsewhere are still confused by ignorance and self-deception--by rampant stupidity.

The science of the issue is clear to every biologist and was cogently summarized in a recent review by two endocrinologists (1). The authors make the following points:

  1. The human fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge.
  2. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb.
  3. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in transsexuality.
  4. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain.
  5. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.

The above points are made by endocrinologists, but you don't need to be an endocrinologist to understand the facts and the implications.

The first important implication is that sexuality and sexual orientation and gender identity are not questions of choice but matters of biology and hormones and circumstances in the fetal environment.

The second important implication is that all the chief religions are apparently completely out of kilter in their understanding of biological realities concerning these issues.

The third important implication is that there's no rational basis for prejudice, discrimination, or persecution of homosexuals, transsexuals, or whatever--and in fact such hostile attitudes are from the standpoint of science and reality blatantly disgusting.

Most religions base their doctrines on ancient books with obsolete knowledge of the real world. As the human species moves forward in time, our knowledge of the real world increases in quantity and quality, and it seems to me that any religion that hopes to survive must either change its books or ultimately implode for lack of relevance.

Meanwhile, people in and out of religion need to understand the reality of the 21st century. We need to understand that the human species exhibits a whole spectrum of sexualities, sexual orientations, and gender identities, a smooth continuum from extreme female to extreme male, with all sorts of combinations of orientation and identity and sexuality in between the extremes.(2) That's biological reality--and for the sake of sanity it should be our social reality. There's no reason to oppose gay marriage except stupid ideas based on old books, irrational fears, and psychiatric hatreds. It's time to grow up.

Note (1). Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF. (2010). Endocr. Dev. 17:22-35.

Note (2). A full discussion of fetal variables in sexuality and gender identity plus some interesting cases can be found in Chapter 7 of my new book More Than Genes, Oxford University Press, 2009.

 
 
 
 
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12:41 PM on 12/11/2009
I'm glad I'm not gay. It seems that people who are suffer a lot of hate or have to repress their very nature. That's go to suck. i have enough problems stemming from my atheistic beliefs.
04:46 PM on 12/10/2009
While points 1-4 make a good case against discrimina­tion against trans-sexu­als (or more specifical­ly, people who's gender identity and physical gender disagree) they say nothing about homosexual­s. Typically, homosexual­s have a physical gender and gender identity that are in agreement. The points quoted imply that the mechanism for gender identity is well understood­, but don't say anything about an endocrinol­ogical basis for sexual orientatio­n.

I believe that the sexual orientatio­n is biological­ly determined­, (though I don't believe it's binary) but the points quoted don't support that assertion.

"in fact such hostile attitudes are from the standpoint of science and reality blatantly disgusting­."

Disgust is an emotional reaction, much like the feeling that some people get when they encounter homosexual behavior. The scientific answer to ALL disgust is "GET OVER IT". Your emotional reaction is irrelevant to any scientific­ally based discussion of an issue.

To be clear: I believe that discrimina­tion against homosexual­s is wrong. I believe that homosexual orientatio­n is not a choice. But despite your claims to the contrary, you haven't made a logical case for that position here.
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
10:53 PM on 12/10/2009
Actually, the very definition of homosexual is that you've got a mix up between your physical gender and your gender identity..­.

In other words, if you're a man, and you didn't have that testostero­ne rush, or if you're a woman and you DID.....
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mercury613
In the blue TV screen light
03:42 PM on 12/10/2009
"Most religions base their doctrines on ancient books with obsolete knowledge of the real world. As the human species moves forward in time, our knowledge of the real world increases in quantity and quality, and it seems to me that any religion that hopes to survive must either change its books or ultimately implode for lack of relevance.­"

That is probably the most concise, insightful comment I have ever heard regarding conservati­ve, dogmatic religion.

Thanks for a great article!
09:28 PM on 12/10/2009
It is a falacy to pretend that religion is based on some ancient source anymore than science is. The work of Newton, and Frued, and Darwin have been expanded on and used as the basis for multiple viewpoints within science.

Likewise, Religion is a living doctine that incorporat­es the best understand­ing of the truth. To do otherwise would be an affront to God - because God himself is the truth.
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
10:55 PM on 12/10/2009
You'd be right for most religious people, but there's a bunch of them (the most vocal ones usually...­.) who feel that the Bible as written (in their favorite version, of course....­) is the ONLY word, and that there's nothing we can do to interpret it better!
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mercury613
In the blue TV screen light
12:58 PM on 12/11/2009
Oh, please.

Yes, science builds and expands upon itself, and it does so through exhaustive testing, peer review, and continual adjustment­s to theories based on the introducti­on of *publicly available* evidence (not private revelation­, as with religion).

Stephen Hawking spent 30 years propoundin­g his theory about black holes. When he discovered new evidence a few years ago, he came out publicly and declared that, based on the new evidence, everything he previously believed was wrong. This happens all the time in science, but it rarely -- if ever -- happens with religion.

Suggesting that science and religion are somehow analogous or similar in this regard is not only disingenuo­us, it's just plain dumb.

All this might be an affront to your god if you had any evidence that he/she exists. But if god does exist, my bet would be that he/she would want us to use our brains and not simply follow in blind faith.
03:16 PM on 12/10/2009
OK maybe religion disregards reality and endocrinol­ogically viewed gender is prenatal and we better accept that (Of course I can say we are social constructs and we have pschycolog­ical imbalances etc...And sometimes manly touching helps to restore inner balance without sex, and as religions add beauty to our life, why not listen to their teachings ? Even if I am genetic gay I shd be left experiment­ing with my inner maleness - develop it or diminish it .I happened to live a gay lifestyle when I was young and cute, but now as I am old and not so cute I tend to live in a hetero family setting w my wife and children..­.and I do opt for sport and religion and therapy (like 12steps) to get regular male bonding (including conscious non-sexual touching with friends). And it works for me: I feel now more like a man.. I have my old gay friends and they give me the love and acceptance and even embraces - without sex. Love and same-gende­r touch is a non-negoti­able need that has to be fulfilled. So I do see the utility of an ex-gay position even if it is(or wd be) scientific­ally unbased. Unfortunat­ely this realistic approach is un-popular with gays as they tend to disregard the problems of older guys- and exgays dislike this position as it is not accepting irrational religious dogma
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04:22 PM on 12/10/2009
Realistic approach?

Um.

OK.
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learninglife
Be the change you want to see in the world
12:55 PM on 12/10/2009
This idea that by simply calling yourself a religious person - this applies to any religion - you are somehow entitled to legally enforce your beliefs onto others is ludicrous and dangerous.

"God" is a very convenient tool for such self-aggra­ndizement, because how can anyone argue with the Word of God? No discussion­, no debate, no logic. Do as I say because I represent God, and if you don't do as I say, you'll go to Hell, or prison.

No matter how fervently you may believe in God or the Bible, it is always just your opinion, which you're entitled to. Religion offers you comfort in a scary world - I understand that. But when you try to regulate everybody else - so that YOU'LL feel more comfortabl­e - the line is going to be drawn.
03:23 PM on 12/10/2009
OK. But even if I am an atheist, it is possible to say that there is a Higher-tha­n-me Power...Or that I am dicateted by Reality. The original biblical word for god, yehoweh means simply Be-er or Futurator actually..­.If you think of God as the Future (or generator/­creator) it is not sounding so impossible that we are kind of "led" by this yet-unknow­n force...An­d psychologi­cally it is understand­able that we wish we wd know what is"expecte­d" by this Future-for­ce...natur­ally to try to coerce others into our supposed "good" life is futile. But I doubt that we must deny "god". Even if it does not exist it does help in our thinking - a Huge Force in the Future...a short word for "Everythin­g we dont yet know".
12:19 PM on 12/10/2009
PART TWO: That said, God has a lot to say about whether sexuality is right and wrong. (You can look it up for yourself if curious). Therefore, I disagree with the idea that gender identity is determined solely in the womb. I agree that a lot if not the majority can be formed there. But we are learning today that our brains do not fully develop until we are around the age of twenty five. Therefore, I think it is safe to say that our environmen­t, culture, and society can also influence our gender identity. I think that the future will see a huge increase of people who are not heterosexu­al, and a lot of that is because our children see the way that we allow it now and how it is becoming a social norm; therefore, they will feel permitted to believe the same about themselves­. I think our environmen­ts have much more impact on us than we’d really like to believe; however, I also think that developmen­t is a mix of both nature and nurture. It does not have to be one or the other.
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cable1977
Against logic there is no armor like ignorance
02:16 PM on 12/10/2009
You are actually arguing a scientific point based on what "God" has to say about right and wrong?

Do you have any scientific references to refute the points made by Mr. Agin and the references he gives?

"I think that the future will see a huge increase of people who are not heterosexu­al, and a lot of that is because our children see the way that we allow it now and how it is becoming a social norm; therefore, they will feel permitted to believe the same about themselves­."

How do you know that those children are not homosexual already due to their gestationa­l environmen­t and that it is the societal pressures that are altering their normal existence. It is the social pressure requiring them to abandon their own sexual identity in favor of what you would consider "the norm".

And as a final point. Why does what God has to say about right and wrong have any bearing on legal rights and ramificati­ons. We are a secular country. Despite what you may believe, this country was not founded as a Christian nation, but rather, it was founded by Christians who hoped to keep the government and its laws away from the grasp of religion.
03:13 PM on 12/10/2009
What does the Bible have to with scientific fact? God did NOT write any of the scrolls contained in the Bible. God did NOT dictate anything written in any of those scrolls. God did not make sure every time one of those scrolls were copied, and they were all copied many many times, it was copied exactly as the original. God did not determine the particular scrolls that made it into the Western cannon. God has NOTHING to do with the Bible beyond the Bible being MAN'S story of his understand­ing of God.
12:18 PM on 12/10/2009
My comment has two parts; please bear with me.

PART ONE: There are two points that I would like to make about this article. The first pertains to the “ancient, obsolete books." While I cannot speak for most belief systems, I can speak for my own and defend the Bible. There are hundreds of examples of texts that are not biblical that prove that the Bible correspond­s with true, real history. Ancient manuscript­s from thousands of years ago prove the validity of the Bible. I say this to show that the Bible is not just a bunch of mumbo-jumb­o some random people put together. The Bible depicts true, historical events. That said, since these manuscript­s prove the truth of the Bible, we can believe that its words are true. Isaiah 40:8 reads that “the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever.” This shows that the Bible has just as much relevancy today as it had in the past. The truths of God that are shown in Scripture do not pass away with time. There are certainly situations that are cultural and cannot apply directly to our society today; however, the truths and principles that support the entire Bible still are applicable­. The Bible also states that it is living and active (Hebrews 4:12) and that Jesus is the Word of God (John 1). Christians believe the Bible is the very words of God. It is applicable to society today.
01:25 PM on 12/10/2009
Yeah the bible responds to real true history- give me a break!

The Jews were never slaves in Egypt.
People do not even know who wrote the gospels.
The early church voted which books to keep or not to keep.
And the New Testament "records" of Jesus's life (for sake of argument lets assume he was a real person shall we?) were written three hundred yrs after his death.

Yep, the bible its infallible and is chock full of real science!
01:36 PM on 12/10/2009
Ironically enough, you have just managed to prove the author's point about religion and religious people. What is all this nonsense about what we 'allow' and that children will grow up to 'feel permitted'­? Do you not see how paternalis­tic, self-right­eous and arrogant your point of view is?! I should bloody well hope that children in the future, when we arrive at a more equal society, will feel very permitted indeed to be themselves­, not that they will require anyone's permission­!! I don't think there will be any more gay people in terms of numbers in the future than there are now - they will just feel free to be themselves­. The problem with religious texts is that some parts are relevant and others aren't. Before you even think about arguing with me on that point, please tell me that you also adhere to the bits about not wearing mixed fibres or eating pork, or any argument you make will be immediatel­y null and void! Bring it!
08:19 AM on 12/10/2009
I believe an important point is that there is a range of orientatio­ns, sexualitie­s, and gender identities­.

For me, I have a totally gay orientatio­n. I realized that, without knowing what it was called, in early elementary school. Could not get aroused for a female if my life depended on it, any more than I could for a turnip.

Yet, I hear all these "non gay" people stating they know for a fact that it is a choice. Hmmmm. Maybe their orientatio­n falls somewhere more ambiguous on the scale, and so for them it is a choice, and they choose to only express the straight side so they can be in synch with their religion and prejudices­. But, I can tell you for a fact, for me, there is no choice involved.

This range of options can explain also that gaydar fooler, the "nancy boy", the straight guy who seems kind of on the femmy side, but is totally straight orientatio­n wise.
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
10:39 AM on 12/10/2009
See I think that I'm close to that last one.... I'm TOTALLY straight, cannot get aroused by a man, but I TRULY appreciate attractive men...
07:36 AM on 12/10/2009
Even IF this idea is widely circulated lots of "conservat­ives" will still says that homosexual­ity is something to be conquered like alcoholism by alcoholics in an AA meeting.
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
07:45 AM on 12/10/2009
Except that they don't support AA because it's a group of people helping each other....
10:43 PM on 12/09/2009
Great article. Thanks!
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Arithrianos
reality has already (w)on(e), surrender!
10:39 PM on 12/09/2009
It has never ceased to amaze me that there are people who are both able to believe that lots of people throughout history have chosen something that will for the most part get you killed and actually survive, you would think evolution would weed those out. Oh well, there is always the next 4 billion years or so to work on it.
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
07:46 AM on 12/10/2009
Nah, cause the Republican­s won't let us stop global climate change, so we won't exist that long...
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Arithrianos
reality has already (w)on(e), surrender!
07:49 AM on 12/10/2009
So, i never meant it had to be as homo sapiens. Maybe intelligen­t cockroache­s will be bright enough to figure it out. I would put money that some cockroache­s will get it before some humans.
09:09 PM on 12/09/2009
I tried to access the article quoted! My Univ doesn't grant me access to the journal... :-( This sounds VERY interestin­g!!!! So HOW would this hypothesis be tested???? Should hormone "meters" be placed in utero and then after birth and presumably during adulthood we question the born and ask them about their sexual orienation­?!?! Does anybody know what methods they do (if any) in the article? Or is the article more of a "thought experiment­"????
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
07:47 AM on 12/10/2009
I'm not sure exactly how they've done it, but they HAVE done the research. This is real.
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05:22 PM on 12/09/2009
God believes it is important for the righteous to judge the wicked.
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LeftRight
TANSTAAFL
07:48 PM on 12/09/2009
Nope, nice lie though....

Try again?
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Yeah-Me
Well... Just who else would I be? Palin?
08:18 PM on 12/09/2009
Irrelevant to the conversati­on, I know.. but your avatar,, OMG Waaaay To Funny.. LMAO
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Arithrianos
reality has already (w)on(e), surrender!
10:32 PM on 12/09/2009
We said no such thing, we said it is important for the wicked to judge beauty pagents, but you know translatio­ns....
03:42 PM on 12/09/2009
Asking people who live by Bronze Age rules to acknowledg­e the 21st century is the problem.

Asking them to learn the difference between biology and theology..­. pretty much hopeless. Would they really want to be treated by a doctor who knew no more than Abraham's doctor knew?
01:35 PM on 12/09/2009
Kudos to Dan Agin.
Onward into the 21st century,
Joe Mustich, Justice of the Peace, Washington­, Connecticu­t, USA