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Dan Dorfman

Dan Dorfman

Posted: July 27, 2009 01:54 PM

Ouch! Recession, Part 11


Okay, we've borne the brunt of an economic Katrina, but we're all being assured and reassured from Washington, the media and Wall Street that the current recession is on its last leg and we're on the verge of a lively and protracted rebound.

Says who? Such notable figures as Federal Reserve chief Ben Bernanke, Treasury boss Timothy Geithner and General Electric skipper Jeffrey Immelt, as well as most Wall Street economists and some talking heads at the business networks.

Obviously, many investors are swallowing this line of sunshine. Indicative, hordes have gone on a buying binge, in the process bidding up the Dow Industrials more than 2,500 points from their March lows.

Whoa there! Before falling hook, line and sinker for this economic guarantee from the happy-days-are-here-again crowd, you may want to weigh what seems to be some legitimate skepticism from a number of doubting Thomases. They're suggesting that after a brief reprieve, we're in for more hurricane weather, or specifically, Recession, Part 11.

Reflecting this thinking, several prominent economic voices are now calling for a double-dip recession--an end to the current one, a recovery of sorts and then a slide back into another recession. The latest big name to endorse this scenario is Harvard University's economic professor Martin Feldstein, who thinks a new downturn could kick off as early as this year's fourth quarter after the effects of the stimulus package wear thin.

A similar roller-coaster ride is also suggested by George Soros's former sidekick, global money manager Jim Rogers of Singapore-based Rogers Holdings. Rogers often predicts the economy and the stock market will go to hell in a handbasket. For now, though, he sees a temporary reprieve for the battered U.S, economy, but then a possible resumption of even stormier economic weather in 2010 and 2011.

Huge amounts of money have been poured into the system, so the people getting all that money will feel good for a while, Rogers observes. But in the end, he says, someone has to come up with all the money which people are now receiving. It must come from taxes, borrowing or printing, none of which will be good down the road. We will feel the effects and things are likely to get worse, he says, spurred by a resumption of the recession.

Why another economic hurricane? Because of gigantic debt, currency problems, taxes and inflation, Rogers says. In other words, the financial markets face new problems that will affect the market.

Interestingly, this is the first time in Rogers' life he's not short any stocks (a bet their prices will fall) because, as explains it, he doesn't see many areas of excess in the market. Likewise, we're having a powerful rally, which means, he believes, the market should be okay for a while.

New York University's economics professor Nouriel Roubini, who called the current financial crisis and recession and was widely ridiculed for being such an economic sourpuss, is a member of the Yogi Berra school which argues "it ain't over till it's over." And that's how he views the economy. Roubini, who had been saying he expects the recession to wind up by year end, now suggests any recovery will be temporary in nature.

Why so? Because this economic grizzly, who's been making the editorial rounds, is now proclaiming that we could tumble back into a recession in late 2010 or early 2011 because of shoddy or little job growth, ballooning government debt and rising oil prices. Roubini reckons we'll see puny economic growth of about 1% a year over next few years and he looks for the jobless rate (now at 9.5%) to peak at around 11%, leading to another 13% to 18% decline in home prices.

His projected low GDP numbers are particularly worrisome because GDP growth of at least 2.5% is generally required to produce a meaningful pickup in jobs.

British economist J.C. Spender, a professor of economics at the Open University Business School in Milton Keynes and a noted academic, thinks a double-digit recession is the most likely course from here. At this moment, he says, the downside economic risk is significantly greater than the upside potential. Spender figures if he's right about the double dip, it could well precipitate another financial panic, meaning, of course, more people will lose their homes and jobs and stock prices will head lower.

As he sees it, at this juncture there is no prospect of a sharp pickup in economic growth stemming from the consumer or consumption. Nor does he envision any action being taken to generate long term infrastructure spending as a means of invigorating the economy.

Given the stimulus package and more money being pumped into the system, Spender says it's now clear the financial system has been saved. But at what cost, who knows?

Ominously, he expects considerably more pressure on the middle class. The kind of economy sustained from 1950 to 2006, primarily driven by middle class consumption (such as clothes, travel, bigger cars, housing and massive spending on electronics) is basically history.

"We're never going to see the old days again," Spender says. "We'll have to find new days. We're looking at a new world, which may well be a frugal world with a higher savings rate."

Given the rising Dow and the bonuses, life may be okay for the Wall Street and Hamptons crowd, but in the real world, Spender says, the quality of life and the standard of living we've had in the past will fade and become a distant memory.

If he's right, how does he explain the huge stock market rally? Plagiarizing a well-publicized phrase from former Fed chief Alan Greenspan, Spender ascribes it to "irrational exuberance."

Call it, he says, "a desperation to want things to be better. But as I just mentioned, we're never going to see the old days again."

Dandordan@aol.com

 
 
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Stephen C. Rose
Fulltime writer, blogger, thinker, activist.
10:38 AM on 07/29/2009
Just posted another take on this. Fewer words. Somewhat different slant. Same ball park,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-c-rose/fear-of-a-double-dip-rece_b_246902.html

In sum -- the problem remains pattern language and the failure to understand it. Translation: Ending driving everywhere, creating communities of sufficient density to enable a recalibration of commerce in pedestrian communities.
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texastrixie
I invented the internet.
12:36 PM on 07/28/2009
The stocket market may be up, but consumer confidence is down. The Republicans are screaming abou the increase in the minimum wage last Friday, although the Labor Department sees the greatest increase in jobs over the next ten years to be in minimum wage jobs (retail, food service, etc.). Once again, if you pay people nothing, they can buy nothing. I don't think there will be "inflation" in the next five years, if then. Inflation is when too many people are seeking a limited number of goods. Who, except the really rich, will be seeking to buy anything in the forseeable future. I think first time home buyers are taking a real chance (even with the tax rebate). Who would bet their life (physical or financial) on having a job in three years? Pent-up demand is a thing of the past. If you don't have to have it, most "middle-class" Americans aren't going to buy it, unless they have to. Even kids are going to have to give up some of their wants in favor of needs.
12:05 PM on 07/28/2009
The biggest problem with the current scenario is that big money will pull out of the stock market and move into commodities again. This will leave the middle class with retirement plans worth nothing and paying more for food and gasoline. The rich will just get richer...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
den1953
The best politicians are for free!
11:21 AM on 07/28/2009
If this country don't realize the fact that we need industry to start a industrial boom some what the likes of post world war 2 we will no longer be a super power! With out jobs people will not survive and no money means crime and poverty and most of all no hope!
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Mogamboguru
I am a liar. Don't believe me.
09:57 AM on 07/28/2009
I say, this will be a MASSIVE double-dip-recession / depression.

Once investors at the stock-markets will realise, that their investments don't produce real growth but are only pinned as yet-another Ponzi-scheme against each other by the usual suspects on Wall Street (Goldman Sachs' microtrading, anyone?), they will withdraw their money from the stock-markets like hell again to preserve what's left of it.

And as soon as this happens, this actual, rosy-tinted bubble will burst and will leave only devastated land behind it for the watchful eye.

Will this depression get worse? You BET!

(And that's the only way to make a profit out of it!)
08:28 AM on 07/28/2009
Job losses lag economic distress, with or without "happy talk" from the MSM. Later this year, both ALT-A and Option ARM's start resetting, and this process will take several years before subsiding. In addition, the Commercial Real Estate (CRE) problem is many times larger than the residential market, and many of the CRE's will default and go into foreclosure late this year. The bottom line - Job losses lag economic distress!
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Mogamboguru
I am a liar. Don't believe me.
10:01 AM on 07/28/2009
Add half a trillion Dollar in defaulting credit-card-debt, and you are spot-on.
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02:16 AM on 07/28/2009
Anyone, ANYONE! who thinks this recession is over or even near an end is so deluded that they might aswell burn their remaining US mint. IT"S WORTHLESS!. Give it time, and you will see just how bad a "hole we have dug". One so deep, that getting out will require so much sacrifice that "class" civil war will erupt on a scale never seen. The French revolution will become ours.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Guitarsandmore
devoted father, community activist, musician, reti
01:48 AM on 07/28/2009
I say we crash this system again and we crash it for the rich!

90 percent tax rate for everyone making 250 grand or more!
01:01 PM on 07/28/2009
90 percent tax rate for everyone making 40 grand or more will balance the budget, give us money for universal health care and save the planet. Just tax it! Tax it all.
01:26 PM on 07/28/2009
Na, We need to go back and do what Abe Linconln did. He issued debt free currency and paid all the Civil War goods and service suppliers in the North with Greenbacks.. Greenbacks were used right up to the time the dumb and naive Woodrow Wilson signed the Federeal Reserve Act into law in 1913. We now have interest bearing debt instruments, and the fractional reserve lending system both of which contributed to kreeping inflation and the devaluation of the dollar and our current unmanageable debt.

More taxation and or cutting programs will never get us any where near solvent. We have to have debt free currency
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Guitarsandmore
devoted father, community activist, musician, reti
01:47 AM on 07/28/2009
and oh by the way did any one notice how easy it was to get the bail out money and the money for the Iraq war but how everyone is totally perplexed as to where we would ever find the money for a single payer health care system?
12:40 AM on 07/28/2009
It's coming and the wave will be bigger this time.
11:30 PM on 07/27/2009
I also think we have a long way to go. I think the next wave of problems is unemployment. Today we had network news talk about the housing recovery, new homes sales up 11% followed by Verizon Wireless cutting 8,000 jobs. How can we say we are out of the recession when jobs are being lost. How will consumers spend money when they have no money to spend. I predict more people unemployment to rise in most areas, more home foreclosures. The real recovery will not come until we stabilize the job market. When people have jobs they will spend money on homes, and the true housing recovery will be the final indicator that we are out of this crisis.
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Carl Caroli
Give peace a chance
08:00 PM on 07/27/2009
All of the sunshine boys know full well we're heading for a double dip. They're literally trying to talk their way out of it which of course is baloney. In the meantime their friends at GS are stealing the last of the golden eggs.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Bruce Tenenbaum
06:56 PM on 07/27/2009
Economic prognosticators have proven as reliable as palm readers and astrologers. CNBC, MSNBC and CNN may be able to squeeze 12 talking heads onto my TV screen, but not a one of them can predict the future.

Yes, we have some bad times ahead. Also, we have some good times ahead. Exactly when? No one knows.
06:09 PM on 07/27/2009
Obama may be the right man, but at the wrong time. He is a natural leader, a heroic American, and a gifted orator. But he has met his match when it comes to timing in American history.

He is a liberal seeking massive spending on subsidized health insurance, higher prices for energy to stem global warming, and will not dare to reign in defense spending.

The problem is we are broke. Deficits of 1.8 trillion, IN A YEAR!

Right man, wrong time.

As for the above article, I read that for the past 30 years our wages have not gone up even one penny, yet our consumption has doubled. HOW? Because the stock markets have doubled, and more. Because housing prices have doubled, and more. Because our savings have gone down, allowing us to spend more. Because women have entered the workforce in greater numbers increasing family incomes.

Now we have borrowed ourselves into a decade of poor growth and stagnant wages.

Blame both the Democrats for the subprime mess as they WANTED more subprime loans to aid their working poor consitituents. Blame the Republicans who wanted Fannie and Freddie to profit and prosper.
05:54 PM on 07/27/2009
How can this be? Obama back in April assured us that the stimulas was working and under budget.
Congress members here in Florida keep running ads on the tv telling us about all the jobs that have been saved or created due to the stimulas. There were tweleve teachers in Eustis and at least 22 firemen's jobs that were saved. Just look at the real estate market and foreclosures as getting better, oh, oh wait a minute...........there were teachers jobs and fireman's jobs that were saved.......the stimulas has brought us back from the brink................the stimulas is working and under budget......don't look at the man behind the curtain.