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President's Town Hall Remarks on Social Security Contradict Current Policies

Posted: 08/16/11 03:11 PM ET

President Obama said that Social Security is not an "entitlement," or a "driver of the deficit or debt," at a Minnesota Town Hall meeting on Monday. Then why is he allowing a Super Committee charged with deficit reduction to address the program?

"Not an Entitlement"
At the town hall meeting in Cannon Falls, Minnesota, President Obama gave perhaps the most spirited and articulate defense of Social Security -- or any other government program -- of his presidency. The president called Social Security "one of our most important social insurance programs," and for the first time, argued against calling it an "entitlement."

And by the way, you pay into Social Security. They call it an entitlement, but it's not an entitlement, you're paying for it. It's getting taken out of your paycheck.

There can be no underestimating the significance of this remark. It is a point that many Social Security advocates have been making for a long time without the benefit of the president's bully pulpit. Because Americans earn Social Security with deductions from their pay checks, it is not an "entitlement," but rather an earned benefit. This turns the entire austerity-budget frame of "entitlement reform" on its head.

(Click here to view the video clip and the read the complete transcript of the president's remarks.)

By effectively freeing Social Security of the "entitlement" moniker, which traditionally encompasses Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, the President also made a crucial distinction between Social Security and the health care programs. The latter two programs, while equally important and vulnerable to attack, are not entirely self-financed like Social Security is, and have much larger long-term cost issues due to private health care costs. That is why Social Security has historically always been dealt with separately.

The president even corrected the misconception that Social Security is to blame for the deficit, because, as he has said in the past, "Social Security is not the cause of our debt and our deficit." He would be more accurate in saying it is not a cause of the deficit, rather than the cause, since it is entirely self-financed, with a revenue stream held in trust, and cannot borrow to pay benefits. But still, it is a very key distinction of Social Security from the deficit problem.

I'm betting that Jack Lew's arrival as budget director has had something to do with the White House's proactive use of positive rhetoric about Social Security. Lew is a veteran of the 1983 reforms and has strong ties to leading Social Security advocates in the progressive community. In an op-ed in USA Today, back in March, Lew explained that Social Security is "entirely self-financing." The problem he said, "is not Social Security. It is the mismatch between outlays and revenues in the rest of the budget."

Cognitive Dissonance
Unfortunately, the president's prescriptions for dealing with Social Security as part of budget talks are at odds with his stated commitment to the program's independence from the general budget and deficit. He insists that Social Security is not an "entitlement," or "the cause of the deficit." Yet, in reality, he has empowered a Super Committee, operating outside the normal legislative process, to address Social Security in the context of a larger deficit reduction package.

(More here on the Super Committee and how it could affect Social Security.)

The president claimed at the town hall that he models his bipartisan approach on that of President Reagan and House Speaker Tip O'Neill, when they reformed Social Security together in 1983. But this parallel, which he has used several times now, is not apt. In 1983, Social Security was facing an immediate financial crisis, and Democrats knew they would eventually have to give ground on cuts. With Social Security able to pay full benefits for another 25 years, an entire generation's retirement security destroyed by the financial crisis and an evolving economy, and adequacy of current benefits already shrinking due to an increasing retirement age, the same imperative to compromise on cuts is just not there.

If President Obama truly wanted to channel Reagan and O'Neill, he would assign a separate committee to Social Security, rather than entrust it to the Super Committee. Reagan convened a genuinely balanced bipartisan committee dedicated to dealing with Social Security alone. As a result, unlike President Obama, they could justly claim to be working on Social Security for its own sake, and respecting its independence as a program.

(More here on why the Reagan-O'Neill analogy does not apply to the current situation.)

In addition, the president's payroll tax cut contradicts his praise of Social Security's self-financed nature. At the town hall, the president said Social Security was not an "entitlement" specifically because it was paid for with workers' contributions. He made a good point, showing awareness that the political power of a social insurance program is dependent upon a perception that it is earned, and immune from accusations of increasing the deficit. But can we still say that Social Security is "paid for" and therefore "not an entitlement," now that the president cut the payroll tax by one-third?

And substituting the lost revenue with money from the general budget, while preventing the measure from depleting the trust fund, is no less harmful to the program. Where before Social Security did not contribute to the deficit, now it does, subjecting it to attack as a driver of our deficit.

A Cheap Shot at the Left
Buried in the president's town hall remarks could be a veiled potshot at the Left for not being more "reasonable" on Social Security.

[Social Security] is an example of where everybody gets so dug in on their positions. And I have to say -- in fairness, because I've commented on the other side not always being flexible -- there have been times, when our side, when Democrats haven't always been as flexible as we need to be. Sometimes I do get frustrated when I hear folks who say, "You can't make any changes to any government programs." Well, that can't be right. Most companies are thinking, "What can we do better -- are there some changes we can make in order to have the operation go a little smoother?

He goes from saying that Social Security is a contentious, polarized issue in which both sides refuse to deal with one another, to indicting Democrats for not being more "flexible." Then he speaks of some vague straw man who doesn't want to see any changes made to government programs. If it wasn't meant as a criticism of the Left, it sure sounded like it.

As one of the progressives Obama appears to be chiding, I think the president is not judging our position accurately. We do not oppose Social Security cuts in the context of the current budget battles because we think you shouldn't make any changes to government programs. Rather, we believe that a conservative Republican Congress hell-bent on austerity policies during a terrible economy is not the "Ronald Reagan" we need to reach a bipartisan solution to Social Security's funding gap. There are few if any cuts to Social Security that would not either significantly harm adequacy of benefits for struggling families, or undermine Social Security's status as a universal social insurance program with earned benefits. It's better to block change for now, leverage Democrats' status as defenders of Social Security and Medicare to win back Congress, and shore up Social Security's finances when it can be done on more favorable terms.

Views expressed are those of the author, and do not reflect the views of Social Security Works or the Strengthen Social Security Campaign.

 

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03:56 PM on 08/18/2011
Whether or not Social Security can be deemed an “entitlement” or not does not change the fact that fundamental changes are needed to the program. Currently Social Security and Medicare use 8.5% of nonentitlement revenues (federal revenues dedicated to all other programs besides the two). By 2020, the deficits will grow to almost 25% (http://eng.am/poetWU). This means that within 9 years, in order to pay projected benefits to retirees and the disabled, the federal government will have to stop doing about one out of every five things it does today.

In order to prevent such things from occurring changes will have to be made. Such things as raising the retirement age. This switch would eliminate less than a one-third of the projected deficit. However, this needs to be done because people are living longer; therefore more people are getting paid for longer periods of time while fewer people are paying into the system. It would help to reduce benefits. If Social Security payouts were reduced by 3% or 5% for new beneficiaries, about 18% or 30% (respectively) of the funding shortfall would be eliminated. Also, bigger contributions should be required from workers and employers. Right now they pay 6.2% of earnings up to $106,800, or as much as $6,622 per year, into the Social Security system. If the contribution rate were increased to 7.3% of earnings, Social Security's projected deficit would be eliminated (http://eng.am/rtUMqX ).
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4eva
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11:41 AM on 08/17/2011
"Because Americans earn Social Security with deductions from their pay checks, it is not an "entitlement," but rather an earned benefit."

This is silly semantics. The money is taken out of our paycheck with the understanding that we will get it back when we retire ... in other words, we have been sold that we are 'entitled' to have this money back.

Now the fact that the government may have lied to use about this is immaterial to the semantics. In fact, the government is under no obligation to pay SS. However, that is not how the program was/is sold.

If they government decides to not pay these sums, which it SOLD to the payee as the payee being ENTITLED to when retired, then government should be sued by all SS payers for fraudulent advertising. Regardless that they are not required to pay it back they sold the program in that way.
Dealerdeb1
Conservative Libertarian truth
01:49 PM on 08/17/2011
I agree 100% with you. That is why I believe in a retirement 401K instead. Social Security has been used as politicians private checking accounts. Medicare on the other hand is an entitlement and hard to sustain oin the form it is in . I support Paul Ryans Plan where you get a very nice amount of $12-14K a year to buy a policy and the rest for what isn't covered or supplemental. The compettiton to get the seniors policies will be fierce and if they open the entire country to every provider I believe it would be the fastest way to see pricing drop. There should also be choice if the person chooses to have the government plan. It's all about choice and I;m perfectly capable of handling my own affairs. Those who arent could choose the governemnt plan if they like. I don't like. A very very good policy costs a single person about %600 a month a couple $200 a month . If they got $24K they would be able to more than manage.
06:50 AM on 08/18/2011
Well then, the taxpayer is not obligated to pay for anything then--including their salary, pensions, socialized healthcare, etc., etc.
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den1953
The National Inquire of Politics the GOP!
11:35 AM on 08/17/2011
The simple fact that the GOP would love to reduce the nations work force into a minimum wage society Social Security will become more relevant then less in the future, the American people will simply have less to save and rely more on Social security and Medicare toward retirement, austerity has a price to pay and anything Americans can look forward to toward a retirement will strengthen not weaken........
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
den1953
The National Inquire of Politics the GOP!
11:31 AM on 08/17/2011
The politicians don't call Social Security the third rail for nothing this issue is and will be the end of any politicians that alters it , simply put it is a politicians death wish.............
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highhymes
11:20 AM on 08/17/2011
It continues to perplex me as to why more people don't support and/or suggest just increase payroll tax limit. The incremental change has a huge effect on the trust and essentially has no negative impact to those whose contribution increases.
06:53 AM on 08/18/2011
Well you know, the free speech (bribes) of the wealthy, funding politicians, insures they are never obligated to contribute.
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warloch2
Spraying cold reality from the hose of truth.
08:55 AM on 08/17/2011
So what? Everything Obama says and does contradicts reality and morality.
:-)
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wbearl
Retired Manager Mechanical Operations
08:42 AM on 08/17/2011
If President Obama is correct and Social Security isn't entitlement, how come my Brother-in-law is getting a Social Security Check every month when he never held a steady, permanent job, and in less than a year he probably received more in benefits than he ever paid into Social Security? How does the 21 year old paraplegic get Social Security Disability when they have never had a job at all. If it's not an entitlement then the President would have no objections to creating individual accounts and when individuals have received back all they have invested into Social Security, plus interest, the Feds can stop sending them checks. You can call a cow anything you want but in the end it's still a cow. Social Security is a major problem and there just is no easy fix. Our society has come to depend on Social Security and it's loss would be catastrophic for our country. We have a real unemployment rate of close to 18% right now, can you imagine what it would be if you threw all of the people between 63 and 70 back into the work force? Yet how long can we afford to pay out Social Security benefits when the money out doesn't equal the money in? I do not envy those who have to sort this out.
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highhymes
11:17 AM on 08/17/2011
Irrespective of whether or not you BIL job was steady, he paid. As for Disability, surely you don't presume those disabled are the burden to SS, if so, I suggest you go look up "Law of Large Numbers". As for you Individual Account idea, you really have no empathy to less fortunate.

How about just raise the limit on payroll tax. Capping at $106K is nothing more than another tax break.
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4eva
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11:43 AM on 08/17/2011
The situation you described, the money being paid is not an entitlement, but welfare.

The word 'entitlement' has been basardized. Is simply means you are entitled to the money you paid in plus interest.
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WilliamBradford
Veritas vos Liberabit
08:37 AM on 08/17/2011
Sorry, but Social Security is an entitlement. While most people do contribute in their lifetimes, those contributions do not correlate with the benefits you receive. And most people receive for more in benefits than they contribute. This is even more true of Medicare.

It is also interesting that if SS is "entirely self-financed, with a revenue stream held in trust, and cannot borrow to pay benefits", then why did the President threaten to stop SS checks when faced with a the debt ceiling? Someone is lying.
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highhymes
09:06 AM on 08/17/2011
Who would issue the checks? Government employees?
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WilliamBradford
Veritas vos Liberabit
10:53 AM on 08/17/2011
So you believe Obama meant "there is plenty of money to pay the SS checks this month, but I don't know if we'll have the people available to put the checks in envelopes and mail them". OK, I guess we just misunderstood him.
09:55 AM on 08/17/2011
The Rs need to come right out and tell seniors - who vote for the Rs in disproportionately large numbers - that they are the entitled leeches they are talking about when they talk about entitlements. Every senior I've ever spoken to, including the most fervent Rs and teabaggers, thinks of themselves as the salt of the earth. To hear them tell it, they paid into SS and are OWED every penny they now take from it. Same thing with Medicare. They'd be seriously shocked to learn that it isn't those dirty immigrants and drug addicts in cities that the Rs want to "balance" the budget on. It's them. They really don't understand this yet.

And yes, I know the deeply cynical R party wants them to believe that they will be unscathed and only their children will be cut loose to enjoy impoverished futures. But the funny thing is, except for the most callous, most of these old people think their kids are ALSO hardworking, good people who've paid into these programs and deserve them.

It's going to take a lot of Fox News style repetition to get these people to understand that when the Rs speak of "entitlements" they mean average American senior citizens above and beyond all others. Somehow I don't see Fox putting their usual propaganda machine into motion on this one. Could it be because the Rs benefit so much from the false impressions they deliberately perpetuate?
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WilliamBradford
Veritas vos Liberabit
10:19 AM on 08/17/2011
Seniors are indeed owed every penny that has been promised to them from SS, as well as Medicare. They lived and worked under a contract with the government and that contract must be honored. Any adjustments to these programs should be phased-in so that they only effect people many years from retirement.

Your rhetoric is straight out of the Democrat playbook - and a big reason for many of our current problems. You yap eagerly at the chance to scare, insult, and divide people in order to make the "other party" look bad and just to win elections. You don't have any interest in the truth or working toward a solution.

I think most American, especially seniors, understand that the vague word "entitlements" is mostly about SS and Medicare. I don't believe that most of them are the selfish bigots that you imagine. And most of them know that we need to make long term changes to these programs so that they remain viable.
SeriesSeven
Progressivism is a disease.
08:23 AM on 08/17/2011
Claiming that social security does not contribute to the debt and deficit is 1. a lie and/or 2. willful ignorance. These are the facts. First, social security ran an allocated budget surplus for 40 years. However, that surplus was immediately transferred to the general obligation by issuing treasury certificates and promptly spent on programs like Medicaid and Medicare or defense which do not run budgetary surpluses. In other words, the so called "social security trust fund" is an obligation required to be paid by the general revenue (taxes) of the united states. Social security is now (in 2011) running an allocated budget deficit. Which means that in order to meet its obligations, it must dip into the "trust fund". This means that it must recover some of the principal and interest that is currently in US treasuries. This means that the amount of allocated deficit is sourced from the general obligations, which are currently running a MASSIVE budget deficit. This means that Social Security, as a program, directly contributes to the current budget deficit and the national debt as the amount required to meet the SS obligations above and beyond the current payroll taxes is met by unallocated revenues.

This is undeniable. It is absolutely factual. You cannot refute it in any manner because it is factual. Why is it that commentators such as this author are unable to stop lying about this existential reality?
09:02 AM on 08/17/2011
Excuse me but either I'm not reading this right or you are confusing a number of terms here.
If the government issued treasury certificates for the surplus money it took from Social Security,
then the government OWES Social Security. That debt is one that was taken on by the govt.,
not by Social Security, a VERY important distinction. You have conveniently switched this
around to now say that "Social Security is an obligation required to be paid by the genreal
revenue of the U.S." That, sir, is throwing out the baby with the bath water. It is the DEBT for
which treasury certificates were issued that is payable out of the general fund, not everyone's
Soc. Sec. check.
Just as the governments income does not automatically become Social Securitys income, the
governments debts do not automatically become Social Securitys debts. The govt. is NOT
required to pay Soc.Sec. out of the general fund, but it IS required to pay its debts out of the
general fund. The DEBT that the govt. took on when it took the Soc.Sec. surplus, is to be paid
back and paid out of the general revenue. Got it?
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WilliamBradford
Veritas vos Liberabit
09:17 AM on 08/17/2011
To quote the vernacular, OMG! This is obfuscation in the extreme.

So you want us to take solace in the fact that SS does not have an accumulated debt, it is just owed a significant loan from the US government, which has an untenable amount of accumulated debt? OK, no problem then?

This is the kind of budget BS that is drowning is today. Even with the distinction that you make, the fact remains that in order for SS to survive in the short run, it will contribute significantly to the deficit in the general fund. In the long run, unless it is restructured, SS will need loans from the general fund, contributing even more to the deficit and, therefore, the debt.
11:43 AM on 08/17/2011
The money paid into Social Security is also real and factual. The American people have a right to demand the benefits they have earned, regardless of the manipulation of the Trust Fund. The President needs to know we will settle for nothing less!
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LouGots
07:51 AM on 08/17/2011
The holy grail of so-called "Progressives" is to reduce all of us to being dependent upon the government for our daily lives. Their way of bringing us together is to erase the line between independent, self-reliant individuals and charity-case beggars.

Now Social Security has always been presented as a form of insurance. We have been led to believe that we have paid into a discrete, segregated "trust fund," out of which we shall be paid in retirement or time of disability.

It this true or not? Is Social Security insurance, or is it welfare? Of course, the reality is that is both and neither at the same time. Be very wary of the sneaky, equivocal way the word "entitlement" is being used in the Obama speech. Whatever does that mean? Is what I receive in my privately funded retirement annuity an "entitlement?" I surely feel entitled to keep getting it. But now "entitlement" is being used in a new way, to mean out-an-out welfare--something to which you are "entitled" to because someone deigns to give it to you.
,
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highhymes
08:20 AM on 08/17/2011
First, as a "Progressive" I think your premise is sorely mistaken. I think the objective of us Progressives is to create a well-balanced society where you don't have Plutocracy which causes serious desention and class warfare (think French Revolution, Middle East....).

That said, more to the topic at hand. If you feel that SS is a guaranteed annuity, that's fine; certainly a legitimate perspective. However, I would question this of your perspective. Do you feel the "investment" for the annuity should be in relationship to total payroll? Would you be for including total income as the basis for calculating SS? If world economics dictate that United States will generate less income over time due to changing production models, are you concerned for a social safety net for yours or others offspring given the affecting supression of wages? Also, is the annuity limitless? Can you withdraw more than you put in?

The reality is, whether you want to believe it or not, wealth distribution in the US has become disturbingly concentrated. To ignore this fact is very myopic and historical results of such wealth disparity has not proven very beneficial to the countries/populations in which they've existed.
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4eva
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11:50 AM on 08/17/2011
Exactly.
The word 'entitlement' has been deliberately bastardized IMO.

However, the Federal government is not required to disperse SS funds back to payees. They can disband the program at any time they wish. Congress could do this tomorrow.

Of course, they'd have to jump on their private jets and abscond to a llama ranch in Bolivia, but they *could* do this perfectly legally.
07:23 AM on 08/17/2011
The 6 Republicans on the Super Committee have already vowed not to raise taxes so the 6 and one Democrat, say Max Baucus, will get what they want. Pres. Obama agreed to this Super Committee so he is responsible for the outcome. And further, this payroll tax holiday which is the 1/3 cut in Social Security FICA deductions will further undermine the program as the Republicans want. There are other ways of getting more money into the economy. I remember Pres. Bush sent approx. $200 to senior citizens, for example.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Donald Fannin
provocatuer
07:14 AM on 08/17/2011
Unfortunately Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme. Just like Madeoff when there were not enough new "Investors or chumps" to pay off the earlier 'investors or chumps' the whole thing collapsed. For years the government took our money in payroll taxes. And paid it out to Social Security Recipients, there was even extra money coming in so like Madeoff they took it and spent it. Now when all the boomers retire there isn't enough coming in to pay them. And like Madeoff the whole house of cards is collapsing. The Government Made-off with your money too.
07:25 AM on 08/17/2011
Stop parroting talking points and get up to speed:

http://www.ssa.gov/history/ponzi.htm
SeriesSeven
Progressivism is a disease.
08:29 AM on 08/17/2011
What's hilarious is that you think that article in anyway refutes that SS is a ponzi scheme!!! You know what the difference is between a ponzi scheme and a "pay as you go" scheme as mentioned in your link?

Pay as you go is run by the government, which means that they can hold a gun to the heads of 'future investors' (current workers) and force them into the program or mandate that they have ever growing obligations with the demographics (i.e. new investors) are unfavorable. Ponzi was unable to compel people to become new investors, which limits how long his scheme can last. Government can compel new investors, which only extends the length of the scheme but does not change its overall inevitable progression.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Donald Fannin
provocatuer
02:12 PM on 08/17/2011
Pay as you go is basically what a Ponizi scheme is and it works fine as does the Ponizi scheme as long as you have more as as much money coming in as you have going out. SS doesn't that is the problem. The IOU's that the Government issued to the Fund Trustees have to be redeemed, to do that he government has to borrow the money from some one else. They IOU aren't even bonds. The Trustee's can't take them and sell them on the open market. The only thing to do is to redeem them. And evidently they are lower priority debt than other government bonds.
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highhymes
08:31 AM on 08/17/2011
My goodness are truely that naive and uninformed. First of all, while it may be a government program it happens to be one with two public trustees and manage they manage the trust just like any other. Moreover, they pay great attention to the acturial accounting in determining how the trust should pay out the benefit.

Since your so sound bite ignorant. Average life expectancy has had essentially zero effect on SS. While it is true that average life expectancy has in the last 70 years gone from 62 to 75, that is only due to the skew of early childhood death that no longer exists (think small pox, polio, rheumatic fever...). The fact is that a woman who lived to 60 in 1940 had a life expectancy of 75; whereas today a woman that reaches 60 has a life expectancy of 78. Given the fact the age increased from 65 to 67 when you can draw SS; life expectancy has only approximately 1 year of benefit impact....nominal.

The public trustees do just that, manage the trust for public. Please do some research before you spew babble.
09:03 AM on 08/17/2011
A good place to start your research:

"These lower death rates result in a decrease in the long-range OASDI actuarial balance of 0.10 percent of taxable payroll"
http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/TR/2011/IV_B_LRest.html#400766

"The impact of the demographic shifts under the three alternatives on the OASDI cost rates is clear if one considers the projected number of OASDI beneficiaries per 100 covered workers. As compared to the 2010 level of 34 beneficiaries per 100 covered workers, this ratio is estimated to rise to 48 by 2035 under the intermediate assumptions as the growth in beneficiaries greatly exceeds the growth in workers."

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/TR/2011/IV_B_LRest.html#222190
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WilliamBradford
Veritas vos Liberabit
09:29 AM on 08/17/2011
So an increase of 1 year over 15, or 7%, is dismissed as "nominal". Another great example of the kind of thinking that got us into this mess. If your salary goes up 7%, is that nominal? If the price of gas goes up 7%, is that nominal? If your investments accumulate a return 7% faster, is that nominal?

And of course, when government spending goes up 7% every year, that is considered the bare minimum...
07:05 AM on 08/17/2011
Many have learned you need to watch what Obama does not what he says.

He said he favored a public option and he says he defends Social Security.

However, that doesn't mean he won't throw them under the bus if he think it will make him look bipartisany.
05:49 AM on 08/17/2011
It all boils down to the fact that employers don't want to pay into the SS fund anymore. You pay 6.2 percent of your wages and your employer pays 6.2 percent into the fund for a total of 12.4 percent on the max of I think it's around $106,000 annually right now. It's all about higher profits. Just think how much corporations are paying into it for their employees every year! I can only imagine the lobbying.
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4eva
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11:56 AM on 08/17/2011
Actually, the employee pays the full 12.4%.
The employer's half comes out of the employee's gross salary.
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03:36 AM on 08/17/2011
Social Security has accumulated a massive surplus—$2.5 trillion now, rising to $4.3 trillion by 2023. This vast wealth was collected over many years from workers under the Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) to pay in advance for baby boom retirements. The money will cover all benefits until the 2040s—unless Congress double-crosses workers by changing the rules. This nest egg does not belong to the government; it belongs to the people who paid for it. FICA is not a tax but involuntary savings.

http://www.thenation.com/article/whacking-old-folks

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-social-security-isnt-going-broke

http://www.money-zine.com/Financial-Planning/Tax-Shelter/FICA-Tax/

http://strengthensocialsecurity.org/commission-watch

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-dreier-social-security-20100814,0,6657114.story

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectid=62&articleid=20100817_62_A13_Recent931656

http://aging.senate.gov/record.cfm?id=325009
SeriesSeven
Progressivism is a disease.
08:36 AM on 08/17/2011
Your comments are partially factual, but let's see how you like a dose of reality. First, the "trust fund' is not going to rise to $4.3 trillion because SS is currently in deficit in 2011 (read the trustee's report). Treasury rates are so low that no amount of compounding interest is going to turn $2.6 trillion into $4.3 trillion when you are withdrawing principal. Second, that $2.6 trillion that is currently in US government obligations is an obligation of the US tax payer. SS benefits are taxed as ordinary income. In other words, the retiree who supposedly "invested" for all those years in US treasury certificates is obligated to PAY THEMSELVES PRINCIPAL AND INTEREST!!!!

Now what type of savings plan(other than SS) that you know of requires you to contribute principal, have the fiduciary spend the money, then require you to pay yourself back the same amount...and then call it a benefit?
09:10 AM on 08/17/2011
In 2010 the trust fund grew by 68 billion, and is estimated to grow by 69 billion in 2011:

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/TR/2011/IV_A_SRest.html#126084
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Celebrindan
M=1∞/R=dM>1
12:46 PM on 08/17/2011
This isn't the problem with SS.

First. thinking of SS as a tax is part of the issue.

It is not a tax.

No part of that monies collected are done so to enhance 'government coffers' for it's general fund responsibilities.

No part of what you pay FICA may be counted towards your Federal Tax liability, for exactly this reason.

Calling it a 'tax' is wrong.

As the population of the US grew, and became less and less agrarian, it became obvious that people who were not farming their own lands had no means of support in their old age.

It is the government requiring YOU and I to save of our old age.

Anyone here who does not voluntarily put a full 10% of EVERY paycheck aside and leave it untouched, must hold their objections to SS, because they too will get old some day.

And I guarantee you, no matter how young and invincible you feel right now,
it comes far faster than you are ready for.

The problems with all FICA funds, is that Congress allowed themselves to raid the fund into oblivion, without ever paying it back.

They treat it like it is tax revenue and it is not.

It is our savings, and they are stealing it as literally as robbing a bank.

Referring to SS and FICA as 'tax' only helps them out the back door.