Are Clinton and Obama Communists?

The right has been cranking up the communist charge in this election. I guess it worked for the 50 years ago, so why not trot it out again?

I came across this today at the Republican TownHall site: Obama, Clinton And Capitalism: It's Okay For Them, But Nobody Else,

The big irony here is that while Obama has done extremely well for himself in our very unique free-market economy, he has the "audacity" to demonize others who have done well for themselves, and to propose economic policies that, if implemented, would radically change our nation into something more akin to a Western European socialist state.

OK, let's examine that for a minute. Aside from the implications that they are communists, what does "Western European Socialist State" really mean? European citizens get 5 weeks paid vacation per year for everyone, free full-coverage health care for everyone, generous pays and pensions for everyone (with retirement earlier than here), corporations required to benefit the public, modern public transit systems, child care, clean public-oriented cities, governments responsive to the people instead of the wealthy, the corporations and the big military contractors, ... oh I could go on and on about the terrible state of things for Western European citizens...

And what are some of the examples of Clinton and Obama's supposedly communistic policies?

Obama has proposed a federal crack down on what he deems "excessive pay" for corporate executives. He has proposed that the federal government begin taxing people's capital (not just earnings or interest payments, but, yes, capital itself). He has proposed that the capital gains tax rate be raised to 28%, nearly doubling its current rate of 15%. And he has made it a constant theme of his campaign to lament "Bush's tax cuts for the rich,"

. . .[Clinton] has berated the reality of America being an "ownership society" (despite the recent increase in mortgage foreclosures, home ownership in America is still at an all-time high), saying that in reality we are an "on your own" society. Her remedy for the "problem" is for us to become a "we're in this together society," a nation of "shared responsibility" AND "shared prosperity."

Conservatives lament that people should have to actually give back a bit to the public by paying taxes, after the public's investment in roads and bridges and law enforcement and military and schools and the legal and financial infrastructure made them rich. The writer thinks that the roads and bridges and schools and everything else that enabled that ecosystem which enables people to get rich just magically appeared. The writer doesn't seem to know that it was taxes that built that system -- OUR taxes -- and thinks the beneficiaries of this public investment should just freeload off the rest of us.

Taxes are the reason we have a thriving economic ecosystem. Tax cuts make us poor. And people getting rich off of our public investment and giving nothing back is the reason we don't get 5 weeks vacation, health care, and all the rest here.

If the conservatives are trying to scare me away from voting for Clinton or Obama by claiming that if elected they will bring us 5 weeks paid vacation a year, free health coverage and the rest, and that the cost will be taxing rich CEOs and corporations -- well I gotta tell you I want to get me some of that!

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Comments

[ntmessage]

Frankly, the issue is with Obama but even more with the Dean lead DNC. Obama is more Liberal than Clinton who is trying to run a more centrist campaign that can win. Obama fanatics have made Obama look even more leftist but Obama has done nothing to contradict them. The Pubs will take the worst of Obama’s baggage and try to smear Clinton with the fatal Marxist Socialist unpatriotic rhetoric. Further his tax policy is more left than Clinton's, again a fact that the Republications will smear against the entire party when the people realize that anyone with a mutual fund or paying payroll taxes (over 100k not 200k as Obama said) is affected.

Frankly if the democrats lose, it will be the fault of Dean and the DNC for pulling the party into a non-electable and non-mainstream position, not Obama or Clinton.

[Kingbreaker]

Obama more 'leftist' than HRC? Gimme a break. I wish he were.

They are both moderate democrats.

[Oldchef]

I'll take some of that "socialized medicine" please. The insurance companies here don't like me because I lived through Lymphoma, so I'm a bad risk to them.

[ILliberalPedagogue]

Well, good luck if you have a relapse with socialized medicine. It will be too late by the time you get your appointment.

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

In America a huge percentage of us can't see a doctor AT ALL. And the emergency rooms are so crammed that it is HERE that you have the problem if you have an emergency.

The countries with socialized medicine have much better medical care. DO you actually believe the stuff Rush tells you?

[desmirl]

When the Republicans start the scare tactic machine telling us that we're going to end up like Europe, remind them that the Euro is kicking the snot out of the Dollar. Someone has it right and someone has it wrong -- and the Republicans are pulling out all the stops trying to take us to the dark side.

[aceholiday]

capitalism is wage slavery. of course you're told thats a lie. we've never had it and it would only serve the people, not the privileged.

[mutron]

The problem with Capitalism is that it spreads wealth unevenly. The problem with Socialism is that it spreads poverty evenly. I'll take Capitalism any day over Socialism. Socialism is essentially an antiquated 19th century idea that failed miserably as a 20th century experiment. This is the 21st century, it is time to move on and move away from that style of thinking.

[lucky54]

Have you ever lived in a comunist or socialist country? if so which one and for how long?? and by living I mean work, send the kids to school, have a parents on retiremant ... and so on. I did and I know there is no utopia, but I am willing to exchange experiences ... Unless you're just afraid of something you have no knowledge about.

[Kirk59]

I think the suggestion is that the government systems of Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France, Holland, Finland, UK, would be a big improvement. No one is suggesting we become Albania.
One thing for sure. In a Parliamentary system like the UK, GW Bush would not have survived even 4 years. Just imagine him trying to handle "Question Time" like British PM's have to do.

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

This is an example of why Americans should travel more.

Go to Paris and then come back and tell me about the widespread poverty.

And by the way bring me back some of that poverty food and wine, will you?

[Kirk59]

Thanks, Dave.
Yes, virtually every Western European lives better than 95% of us in America. It was not always so but it becomes increasingly true as the dollar is weakened. Their "socialist" governments have NOT failed miserably, but have been continually modified to meet existing conditions. Their currency is strong and I would trade places with them in a heartbeat.
The scare tactics continue to work over here, mainly because most Americans have never been abroad, don't know anyone who has lived abroad, and are suckers for the idea that America and our way of life is superior to all others. Looks like we are going to have to suffer many more years before folks wake up and take their government back.

[WHusseinLA]

Unregulated capitalism is unsustainable. As evidenced by the smash-n-grab that has been taking place for the last 16 years.

[Overd0g]

The childish wish to get something for nothing, tainted with a little envy and the cowardice of using democratic institutions to conduct the theft you are afraid to do. Just put on a mask and go rob them, if that is what you are about.

[blindjester]

"using democratic institutions to conduct the theft ."

As opposed to our corporations, which use our economic institutions to rob the populace.

"NEW YORK (Reuters) - Exxon Mobil Corp (XOM.N) Chief Executive Rex Tillerson's compensation rose nearly 18 percent to $21.7 million in 2007, when the oil company pulled in the largest profit ever for a U.S. company.

Tillerson, chief executive of the world's largest publicly traded company, took home a pay package that included $1.75 million in salary, a $3.36 million bonus, and $16.1 million of stock and option awards, according to a company filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.

He also received nearly $430,000 of other compensation, including $229,331 for personal security and $41,122 for use of the company aircraft.

Exxon Mobil earned $40.61 billion in 2007, up 3 percent from the previous year. The company's shares rose 22 percent during that period."

Why are gas prices so high? Somebody's gotta pay those executives!

[JacobSinger]

The sad thing about reading an opinion like yours is that it's so obviously based entirely on misinformation, dogma and ignorance; sadder still is the fact that you're an American with these clearly erroneous views, and that alone guarantees you'll hold onto those absurdities for as long as you live, despite any efforts to provide to with proof to the contrary.

[zjr909]

Jrockbg says that public transportation in Europe "isn't so much a choice as a lack of options." What does he think driving a car is? Unless you live right in the city, public transportation is almost non-existent in the US; you have no option but to buy and maintain a car if you wish to get to work. And Pquilson worries that Obama might tax his 401k. Dude: it's going to be taxed when you dip into it; it's only pre-tax until then. He also reminds us "there is no 'free' anything." Unless, of course, you're a big enough player in the military-industrial complex, like Halliburton; or if you go belly up like Bear Stearns, in which case you'll be rescued by Mr. & Mrs. Taxpayer. The song the right sings never changes: as long as the tax dollars flow upward, Everything's Coming Up Roses; but let one stray dollar fall downward and it's Buddy Can You Spare A Dime. One more thing: the amount of money in your possession is not the measure of your freedom. When you "work hard, save and play by the rules" you're basically only doing what someone else has determined you should be doing. The decision to willingly slip on the chain isn't really what freedom is all about. Honest, it isn't.

[lucky54]

Agree 100% and with a price of gas raising up, more and more people here will have a choice between driving and walking to work. That's a great choice ....

[WoodyCPM]

Right wing economics DOES NOT oppose socialism. Like the "liberal media" meme they've concocted over the past 25 years, they were hard at work getting their policy people into the universities and into the think tanks and into the government to rail against "socialism" while preaching the gospel of capitalism all for the purpose of achieving, by whatever means necessary, a system of socialism for the rich and free enterprise for everyone else. THAT is how the American system works. Savings and Loan, the Airlines, Bear-Stearns, Haliburton, Blackwater, no company is too stupid to fail, or too right wing to not suck on the government teat. The stockholders MUST be rescued! Quick give them some taxpayers' cash. $100 million there, a couple billion here,..."what you want health care? You want a livable wage? Get back to work you slacker! Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps! Stop being lazy! Don't you believe in the American way? What are you a communist?!"

[Jey]

Republican Party = be afraid, be very afraid. FEAR, FEAR, FEAR = CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. If we vote another republican in were one step closer to a dictatorship - study it folks, it's not rocket science.

[Overd0g]

Thank God the Dems will deliver us from Rep fear, with fear of global warming, "class" warfare, civil liberties erosion, and the collapse of the social "safety net".

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

Class warfare. Heh. Good one.

And we SHOULD fear global warming and civil liberties erosion. You don't?

[Pquilson]

There is no "free" anything. Everything has a cost, directly or indirectly. 5 weeks of vacation has a cost to someone, most likely everyone, in the form of reduced productivity. "Free" health care costs everyone, likely in the increase of taxation. CEO pay is determined by the stockholders and the board of directors of the corporation which the CEO serves, just as the wages paid to its employees. You say that compensation to the CEOs is too much. How much is too much?
You say that Obama wants to tax capital, not just capital gains. How? Is my savings account capital? Is yours? I surely think that it is, never mind the amount. But I have already paid taxes on those dollars, and I pay taxes on the interest that amount earns, small though it is. Is your 401(k) capital? Surely it must be, and by the argument given, must be taxed.
An earlier poster said that FDR enumerated the four freedoms: Speech, religion, from want, from fear. If there is a freedom from want, it must be defined.
Achieving a higher, and better standard of living has always been a motivator for me to work hard, save, and play by the rules. It has worked for me, generally, during my life. I have been, at least, moderately successful, I am not wealthy, but I do live fairly well. If there is no motivation for people to work, to achieve, then the prosperity most in this country enjoy, shall suffer.

[wolfgangmo]

PQUILSON,

And yet, somehow, given all that "cost of lost productivity" that you blather about, it turns out that the Germans are the most productive workers in the world. So much for that argument.

I don't think that your veiled references to the "communist" lifestyle is what we are talking about when we say that we want progressive taxes where everyone is taxed according to how much they benefit from those taxes as opposed to the regressive taxation you likely support where those who benefit least pay the most.

What you are advocating is the logical extension of life under Herr Bush, complete plutocratic control and an end to those pesky farcical elections. In other words, full on fascism.

America, if it continues of the course it is traveling will be the greatest threat to democracy in the coming century.

[Pquilson]

Wolfgang: I made no veiled references to any "communist" lifestyle. I did ask some questions, but made no veiled references. Please inform me of my own intent!
Thanks.

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

"5 weeks of vacation has a cost to someone, most likely everyone, in the form of reduced productivity."

Actually the people there have INCREASED productivity BECAUSE they don't have the massive pressure thaqt we are all under.

""Free" health care costs everyone, likely in the increase of taxation"

Actually if everyone has access to health care it costs LESS because you are preventing the problems.

"CEO pay is determined by the stockholders"

Nope, stockholders have no say.

"You say that compensation to the CEOs is too much. How much is too much?"

I'd start phasing in higher and higher taxes starting at maybe $5 million a year, increasing to maybe 90% at 10 million. This is much higher brackets than it was when we used to do this (yes, we did). But then a CEO making $300 million STILL gets $30 million each year, but the rest of society also benefits. But that's my own personal preference.

"If there is no motivation for people to work, to achieve, then the prosperity most in this country enjoy, shall suffer."

Right, $30 million each year is no motivation to work. Right.

Tell you what, I'll sacrifice and work for $30 million a year. And if I decide I am not motivated, then maybe we can find someone else to step in. Maybe we can get someone to come up from Mexico of Americans won't work for only $30 million.

[Pquilson]

Dave: If you are going to quote me back to myself, please use the entire quote, which was: "CEO pay is determined by the stockholders and the board of directors of the corporation which the CEO serves, just as the wages paid to its employees. "

"If there is no motivation for people to work, to achieve, then the prosperity most in this country enjoy, shall suffer." Of course, you know that I mean everyday people, and that I was not only referring to the Evil CEO.

I certainly do not earn anywhere close to the figures you use, and I suspect, with absolutely no evidence, that neither do you. I do pay my fair share in taxes, and I suspect, again with absolutely no evidence, that you do too. So lets stop with the strawmen, shall we? I have my opinions, and you have yours, and, apparently, neither the twain shall meet.

Thanks for listening. I now return you to the regularly scheduled program.

[S1m0n]

"5 weeks of vacation has a cost to someone, most likely everyone, in the form of reduced productivity."

You'd be surprised. The American workaholism ethic doesn't actually add much to productivity. The thousand or so extra hours that americans 'work', they mostly spend goofing off: online (as we all are, now) or in many other ways.

For most, the great american work week has been extended well past the point of dimishing returns.

[dperino]

after responding to a past post of dave's, he accused me of being anti-government. reflecting on this, i guess i have to admit that yes, in some ways i am. dave also stated that my position is not in keeping with democracy, although my main point in opposition to new taxes is that we first need to deal with government waste. he then stated he always challenges anti-government/tax/democracy/haters (see conservative) to point out government waste. i'd like a moment to address this.

we've wasted lives and money in iraq. our apathy (media fed) ensures that far more lives will have died while a great chunk of our tax revenue (dave: our money) continues to pore into the coffers of contractors and corporations. the present administration has "stacked the deck" through a hemorrhage of distortions and lies propagated through their ownership of media mouthpieces (with our money).

bring our troops home where everyone would be far safer and apply that savings towards whatever a process to "right our ship" looks like. we're the most powerful nation in the world thus avoiding this abyss is not retreat, it's a rationale based on saving lives and the cost benefit of focusing on our own shit. there's also the added value when demonstrating that our military will never again be used to invade a sovereign without true provocation and through constitutional mechanisms.

[indypete]

I don't know about anybody else, but I always figured the idealised version of socialism boiled down to "I got your back, you got mine." You know, the sort of stuff Jesus was keen on.... let's all look after each other. You remember Jesus... the chap the repubs speak so highly about. They don't mention that he was a commie bastard!

[winston08]

Key word..."get". How do the Europeans "get" what you want, In that answer lies the problem...they take from some so others can get...that my friend is communism...from each according to his means, to each according to his needs. And ultimately there aren't enough to take from and the system collapses...little history would do you good

[lucky54]

Boy, you must be stupid. But any way can you explain how this system is collapsing ?? Nobody "gets" anything and nobody "takes" anything to give to anybody else. This economy was build on lie, on credit, on promise to pay back and the realty is only the poor pay back, the rich take more credit and get richer. And the system is on a verge to collaps, as a matter of fact is collapsing literally (infastructure, banking, real state). That's exactly how Russia collapsed, and we are only couple years away from that. Let's not forget to turn the lights off. Mark my word, genius.

[Overd0g]

Sounds like what Karl Marx said about 100 years ago. You can't get enough of being wrong.

[wolfgangmo]

Winston,

Read something. Anything. And after you get used to doing that they throw in some books [or small pamphlets or comic books if that is where you are] about political theory.

First of all, "that" is socialism, not communism. And the reality is that in most EU countries they all contribute and work together for a common goal of social justice, where the few don't get to bend the many over a chair and @$$ F--- them into submission with the collusion of the government.

That my friend is called fascism. Ultimately those in power get too greedy and move to Dubai and the system collapses.

A LOT of history would be a start for you.

[mamacat]

Thanks for the great article. In general, I much prefer the truth over lies, unless you want to tell me how I'm looking these days.


By the way, when I retired from my job, in which I had a decent UNION protecting my pension, I enjoyed 6 (six) weeks vacation per year, and the company I worked for has been doing very well, thank you. The UNION helped me to get a fair wage and a decent retirement, but I would love to see some of the benefits of the European democracies come to this country. In general, and I have talked to Europeans, they don't think of themselves as socialists. They do think of themselves as living in democracies, in which the government works for them, as opposed to government being controlled by big corporations.

If we in the U.S. don't clean up the White House and the Congress, it won't be long before all of Europe enjoys a higher standard of living than we do - except for the wealthiest 1 or 2% who run the corporations, of course.

[Overd0g]

Well we haven't cleaned it up in 200 years, so I wouldn't get your hopes up.

[JacobSinger]

And if we listen to Overdog-ma like yours, it will NEVER happen.

[Indedave]

No offense, Dave, but I have been preaching this for 30, yes THIRTY, years to friends, family and anyone who would listen. Some of them have now lost their entire retirement plans because they worked for a company bought by Enron, which converted their stocks into rubbish. Others now have intractable and hideously expensive health problems and no insurance. Others still are parochial xenophobes who never had the vacation time to see even a little of the world outside their protracted comfort limits. In return, all of them have blathered this same, tired party line in an endless loop. These are the bitter wingnuts Obama referred to who vote against their self-interest because they are afraid the big-gummint Dems will take away what little they managed to accumulate and give it to some welfare queen. Now they can also turn that bitterness on a candidate who apparently wants to improve the lot of average Americans because they fear change. This is the legacy of 30 years of the politics of fear and government-sponsored corporate greed. Here's hoping for Obama '08.

[pedrothemigrant]

Where is McCarthy when you need 'em-BURN IN HELL COMMIE SCUM!!!