Are Clinton and Obama Communists?
The right has been cranking up the communist charge in this election. I guess it worked for the 50 years ago, so why not trot it out again?
I came across this today at the Republican TownHall site: Obama, Clinton And Capitalism: It's Okay For Them, But Nobody Else,
The big irony here is that while Obama has done extremely well for himself in our very unique free-market economy, he has the "audacity" to demonize others who have done well for themselves, and to propose economic policies that, if implemented, would radically change our nation into something more akin to a Western European socialist state.OK, let's examine that for a minute. Aside from the implications that they are communists, what does "Western European Socialist State" really mean? European citizens get 5 weeks paid vacation per year for everyone, free full-coverage health care for everyone, generous pays and pensions for everyone (with retirement earlier than here), corporations required to benefit the public, modern public transit systems, child care, clean public-oriented cities, governments responsive to the people instead of the wealthy, the corporations and the big military contractors, ... oh I could go on and on about the terrible state of things for Western European citizens...
And what are some of the examples of Clinton and Obama's supposedly communistic policies?
Obama has proposed a federal crack down on what he deems "excessive pay" for corporate executives. He has proposed that the federal government begin taxing people's capital (not just earnings or interest payments, but, yes, capital itself). He has proposed that the capital gains tax rate be raised to 28%, nearly doubling its current rate of 15%. And he has made it a constant theme of his campaign to lament "Bush's tax cuts for the rich,"Conservatives lament that people should have to actually give back a bit to the public by paying taxes, after the public's investment in roads and bridges and law enforcement and military and schools and the legal and financial infrastructure made them rich. The writer thinks that the roads and bridges and schools and everything else that enabled that ecosystem which enables people to get rich just magically appeared. The writer doesn't seem to know that it was taxes that built that system -- OUR taxes -- and thinks the beneficiaries of this public investment should just freeload off the rest of us.. . .[Clinton] has berated the reality of America being an "ownership society" (despite the recent increase in mortgage foreclosures, home ownership in America is still at an all-time high), saying that in reality we are an "on your own" society. Her remedy for the "problem" is for us to become a "we're in this together society," a nation of "shared responsibility" AND "shared prosperity."
Taxes are the reason we have a thriving economic ecosystem. Tax cuts make us poor. And people getting rich off of our public investment and giving nothing back is the reason we don't get 5 weeks vacation, health care, and all the rest here.
If the conservatives are trying to scare me away from voting for Clinton or Obama by claiming that if elected they will bring us 5 weeks paid vacation a year, free health coverage and the rest, and that the cost will be taxing rich CEOs and corporations -- well I gotta tell you I want to get me some of that!
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Dave,
Control over your money is such an essential freedom. The more money we give the government, the less freedom we have.
I'll guess you're pretty liberal. Probably against the Iraq war and want troops home immediately. Then you'd love to use all that money we're not spending over there, over here. But this is exactly my point about paying the government more in taxes. The troops will be in Iraq by the tens of thousands for years to come! Oil companies will get subsidies and big corporations will continue to pay CEO's outrageous salaries. ...and you've been paying taxes all this time!
The powers that control all this money you wish to siphon off taxpayers will not always have the same agenda as you. Based on pure statistics a percentage of them will be corrupt. The stewards of your tax dollars will support wars, oppose abortion clinics, not invest in alternative fuels and funnel truckloads of money into the education system with no result.
Our health care in this country is the BEST IN THE WORLD! It just doesn't get to everybody. If Europeans worked 3 of those 5 weeks of vacation there wouldn't be enough jobs for everyone. Public transportation in Europe isn't as much a choice as a lack of options. And Europeans have significantly less disposable income than we do.
Ironically...you do get what you pay for!
"Our health care in this country is the BEST IN THE WORLD!" Can I have what you smoking??
Sorry old chap but the health care stats do not back you up. "Our" health care is not ours, it belongs to the rich few who can afford it. For them, there is an unbelievable standard of care, but almost no one in America can even afford to park outside those rare clinics that cater to the rich of the world.
It is not our care, it is their care. We don't have it.
I own a clinic. I see every day the problems with our broken "health" care system. It doesn't deliver, but it sure cost us all. Americans, per capita, pay twice, what any other industrialized nation pays for health care and we get squat for it. We are already paying for great universal care... we just don't get it.
And honestly, when is the necessity of a car, with its accompanying insurance, maintenance and gas in order to get groceries or go to work, any more of a choice than having what you need to live within walking or efficient train/bus distance. We don't even have, on the whole, any decent public transportation.
Yes. "EFF-em, I've got mine" is working out really well.
If this is a revelation, you don't spend much time over on the right. The word "socialism now carries exactly the same bagage that "communism" once did, and is used with a frequency to rival any time period in my life.
Hell, on Glenn Beck today he was running a piece quoting Ted Turner on the damage that global warming could do to human societies, and a caller said that it indicated that Ted Turner was practicing cannibalism because he said that humans would likely turn barbaric. And then they said that this was typical of liberals. We're supposedly getting practice eating human flesh so that we'll be ready when the time comes.
This world is clearly not a pretty place in some peoples minds.
Some people's minds are not a pretty place.
Socialism is the status quo inside every family, and inside every corporation. Its weird that the right hates it; aren't those the two institutions they like best?
Socialized fire departments.
Socialized park systems.
Socialized police departments.
Socialized health care for goverment employees.
Socialized health care for veterans.
Socialized health care for the elderly.
. . . . are all staus quo, too.
The game that conservatives love to play is to pretend that creating and maintaining any type of social programs at all will automatically lead us into a rigid, Soviet style economy. The nations of Western Eurpoe are in fact far more capitalist than socialist, but they do assilimate some of the better ideas of socialism into their systems. Five to six weeks paid vacation, early retirement, and often 35 hour work weeks, and their economies are doing a hell of a lot better than ours. Plus the average citizen gets to spend some time with their family instead of working extra to compensate for the insulting wage disparity we live with. Seems like if the Repugs were truly the party of family values like they claim to be, they'd support this type of economic system.
Oh, but they are the party of family values... they value their own families very highly but yours and mine can go take a running jump!
Socialism is just another way of saying Organization on a large scale. We already have things like roads and running water, but Hillary is right in saying it's an "on your own" kind of deal. As we've seen in New Orleans, if the government isn't there to support and empower the people, it needs restructured, it needs reformed, and it needs to be rethought. Otherwise it's irrelevant. The reason people tolerate dictatorships is because their lives have some kind of stability, even if it's a pittance. We're not going to do away with Capitolism, we're just going to level the playing field.
It's a terrific problem that we are not educated throughout our school years about all economic and political systems. We are frightened of Communism, but know very little about communism. In general, we have little understanding about how capitalism, socialism, communism, monarchy, or any other system might interact with the values of, say, the four freedoms of FDR (of speech, of religion, from want, from fear) and the rights preserved in the Constitution. We never get to look in depth at how these systems play out in cultures around the world, and are thus not well armed against the demonization of any particular concept.
The demonization--or the glorification. Works well, doesn't it?
So, wait.... First, when did Western Europe become communist? They are somewhat SOCIALISTIC, but they've never been communistic!!
Second, Obama is proposing to increase capital gains taxes back up to 28% (which is NOT double the current rate!) and they are bitching about that? The talk about how he's going after capital, not earnings, while neglecting to mention that capital gains ARE earnings. You start with something, you use that something, and you get something else out of it. This is JUST like going to a job every day!
What's about 1918 Weinmar republic? Communism stems from Christianity.
The Weinmar republic doesn't count, as it was CREATED by the allies in WWI. You can only count the governments built from the inside. Such as Britain, France, modern Germany, etc....
Communist? Sounds good to me. Maybe I won't have to move to discover civilization. But alas, neither are. So, we will just have to take things a step at a time singing Solidarity Forever as we go.
Talk about out of touch! Something most people over 40 probably don't realize is how little such a charge means to the under-40 crowd. Teach philosophy for a living and you routinely encounter blank stares when you mention Karl Marx, communism, or red scares. I have seen this in 3 different time zones, at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd tier universities, and many colleagues report seeing the same thing. I think this one comes under 'fighting the war before last'.
Agreed. I am in my 20s, and I can't have this conversation with my peers. It's like, they look at me as if I have 3 heads. "...um...what... I don't get it"
RedBirdy, I am over 50 talk to me I do understand, but I know what are you talking about, not everybody has enough brain and knows how to use it....
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