The Spying Started Before September 11 -- That's The Whole Point

In the LA Times today, A Good-Enough Spy Law says,

In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the White House directed telecommunications carriers to cooperate with its efforts to bolster intelligence gathering and surveillance -- the administration's effort to do a better job of "connecting the dots" to prevent terrorist attacks.

No, it started a few weeks after Bush took office -- a time when the Bush administration was ignoring the terrorist threat. So it was about something else, and was a high enough priority to plan out during the transition. (Can you say "political spying?")

One telecom company, Qwest, refused because it was flat-out illegal. The Bush administration punished them, blocked federal contracts, and in an early indicator of what was to come from the politicized Bush Justice Department, they prosecuted Qwest's CEO on trumped-up charges.

The combination of the telecoms letting Bush illegally spy on us BEFORE September 11, and the politicized Bush Justice Department punishing the company that refused -- refused because it was illegal -- is the reason so many of us are so adamant that Democrats should not be passing a law giving these companies immunity. The president can't spy on people without warrants, and the telecoms knew that. They knew it was illegal to spy on us without warrants but they went along with it. Why? Why didn't they ask the Bush administration to just get warrants? And why would Democrats vote to let them off the hook?

Don't forget that Watergate was about Republicans illegally wiretapping Democrats. Don 't think they don't do it.

[note- NY Times link added after posting]

Follow Dave Johnson on Twitter: www.twitter.com/dcjohnson

Comments

[Michale32086]

@MrJohnson

}}}}}My main beef is with the bill is granting immunity to the telecoms for illegal activities that preceded 9/11. Especially considering what happened to Qwest.{{{{{

The immunity is only for civil liability..

If the criminality of the actions are as blatant as you claim, then surely it's a matter for the criminal courts anyways, right??

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

@DavidJames

}}}}Most of us would drown a terrorist in our own blood before we would let them harm a hundred innocents.{{{{

A kindred spirit...

}}}}However the liberties enshrined in our Constitution deserve an equally passionate defense. "Liberty or Death"{{{{

OK, so how you are of the opinion that your right to privacy is sacrosanct and it doesn't matter HOW many lives it would cost.. YOU are going to have your right to privacy and everyone else be damned..

Does THAT sum up your position??

Michale.....

[DavidJames]

Michale,

Not really.

The Fourth amendment to the Constitution is quite clear and should not be ignored.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or thing to be seized."

[Kynn]

The position that you seem to be defending is"

"I want to be safe, be rights be damned."

[CyrusBeaucephus]

Authoritarians freak out about the possiblility of a guilty person escaping notice, but they don't give a damn about trashing the lives of innocent people. A very "American" way of looking at things in spite of the lengths that our legal system goes to to insure the opposite. This won't change until it starts affecting people more directly. So far the fascists, like Michale, have been able to divert attention away from the hundreds of innocents who have been spyed upon, harrassed and in some instances tortured brutally by the US governement. This is NOT AMERICA anymore, as far as I see it. The country I was born in and came to love does not torture the innocent, nor does it trash its Constitution. I hope we can start prosecuting Bush and his cronies for their many crimes, but that won't happen with the current crop of fascist appeasing incumbents

[TheIndependenceParty]

I must respond here to Michale32086, if I might.

So we are clear, I have no political party or affiliation. I have not served in the military, and at age 58, am not liable to, though I that is not certain. I love my country, and until 2002, was registered as a Republican. In that year it became a certainty to me that the nation I loved had been seized, and the word is intentional, by a faction of political thought so far removed from the Party of Lincoln, that I did not want my grandsons to ever associate me with those men, not by registration, nor by vote.

There are countless crimes committed by these men. There are few which will survive the changes to come. The unrelenting assaults upon the Fourth Amendment in particular must be ended, or at the very least, contested before the end of this Administration. No precedents must be left by these miscreants that might be seized upon by future administrations to excuse their criminal behavior.

I write here often. I must ask, what benefit you might derive from such misguided thinking? If not for cash, it is beyond me why you are so in love with such a putrid piece of legislation as this!

You have filled these columns for days with your thoughts. Perhaps you should identify yourself to us all. What do you find so comforting about this trash the Senate is about to pass!

David E Dillman
Berwyn, PA

[Michale32086]

OK, I have a couple units burning in right now, so I have a few moments I can address your sincere post in an equally sincere manner..

I have already stated my experience and other bona fides, so I won't bother going into that again. If you missed it, let me know and I'll repost..

I am a registered NPA (No Political Affiliation) which allows me a certain level of independence of thought and deed. The down side is I am not allowed to vote in ANY primary, so that kinda sucks...

}}}I must ask, what benefit you might derive from such misguided thinking? {{{

You assume that my thinking is "misguided".. Ignoring for the moment the utter arrogance that you feel you can make such an unequivocal determination, I would simply point out to you that my thinking is based on logic and a very rational thought process.. As to "benefit", what benefit do you derive from posting here?? Suffice it to say that, in my case, I enjoy the discussions and debate and I have learned many new things that I didn't know before. This being the case, as Brad Paisley says, I consider it "time well wasted"...

CONT

[Michale32086]

}}}}Perhaps you should identify yourself to us all. {{{

Wow... I didn't think I needed a "loyalty oath" to post here to HuffPo... What kind of "identification" do you require, oh keeper of the blogs? I am a former military officer, an LEO and an FSO, retired. I have NO affiliations with ANY group or entity save my own conscience. Not unless you consider providing free XBOX-360 and PS3 repairs to troops serving in Iraq & Afghanistan an affiliation...

}}}}What do you find so comforting about this trash the Senate is about to pass!{{{{

What makes you qualified to call it "trash"?? Senator Obama supports the legislation. The majority of the Democrats in the House and Senate support the legislation..

With such bi-partisan support, shouldn't you at least CONSIDER the possibility that things are as Senator Obama says they are??

Or, do you simply oppose HR6304, SOLELY because the Bush Administration supports it?? Its THAT your sole basis of opposition??

Michale.....

[Liberal2]

"....I am a former military officer, an LEO and an FSO, retired...." So? Adolf Hitler was a decorated soldier in the German Army during WWI. That didn't make him a person with good political judgement either.You're too in love with your opinion to realize you're an incipent fascist

[egal]

The FISA purpose is undeniably necessary--to provide for finding and stopping security threats--but there is another reason we need to support an updated FISA even if we must continue to fight against the immunity: freedom.

FISA enables courts to authorize necessary spying, but as Bush has consistently ignored, it also enables them to curtail unnecessary spying and destroy information thus collected. If we simply let the old FISA expire, this court is stripped of all authority. Most likely, all the unlawful spying will continue, but because there is no court to strike it down and no FISA guidelines to prove it illegal, there will be no way to fight it until a new FISA is established, and more difficulty even then.

It's not a perfect bill, but most of it is necessary in the information age so that we don't have unwarranted government spying with so much information available to be observed. Without FISA's guidelines, we have no recourse against unlawful spying because it won't be clearly enough defined. So there is a salient reason for supporting this version with its acceptable limitations and exclusions.

Right now, with FISA needed quite soon, it is imperative that we look over the whole FISA updates to determine whether we support the rest of it. If we do, we should focus on fighting and insisting those like Obama fight the immunity in specific, not damning the needed whole for the impermissable few.

[bobwalters]

You are mistaken, understandably, as this is the line advanced by BushCo. If this bill does not pass, the FISA law does NOT go away. What will disappear is the temporary extension of a modification of FISA sought by the Bush Crime Family to EXPAND their spying authority without oversight.

[Michale32086]

As much fun as this is, I really MUST get some work done... I am letting things pile up here.. I have no will power when it comes to political discussions.. :D

I'll check back now and again and see if there are any serious and/or pertinent questions..

Michale.....

[tommybones]

Folks... check Michale's profile and you'll see he bounces around defending the telecoms. That's all he does. When his points are proven wrong, he disappears to another thread and makes the same debunked arguments. He's revealed himself to be a troll, most likely in the employ of the telecoms in one way or another.

Don't waste your time, like many other have already (myself included).

[lthuedk 1]

Look, let's be up front: The spying is what dictatorships do. That the treasonous Bushists put everything in place before 9-11 goes to their conspiracy to take it all and establish a police state.

Obviously.

This was subversion; a clear act to overthrow the United States....period

http://www.light-to-dark.com/americas_shame.html

Instead of legitimizing these traitors by plugging them into the elite propaganda horns, they should be fully prosecuted at the national level, then served directly to the I.C.C. They are enemies of the U.S.

I more than expect Congress and the Office of Special Prosecutor to go the distance. This is certainly one event that absolutely can not go unpunished.

[Michale32086]

}}}Look, let's be up front: The spying is what dictatorships do.{{{

Really?? So, the FBI, the CIA, British MI5, MI6, SAS, GSG9, all of those orgainizations are all part of dictatorships??

So, you don't think that ANY democracy should have any sort of covert self defence??

Michale.....

[tommybones]

Michale = troll (probably on a telecom payroll)

[vippy]

No, by having these organizations and letting them do their jobs would have saved us
from this war. We have a 30 million intel apparatus and they want to tell us that they
did not know what Iraq had. Who would believe that? We don't need more spying, as
they do quite a good job. In fact, we can identify a dime in someone's wallet from out of
space so don't tell me we did not know what Saddam had. This FISA we don't need.

[Liberal2]

Obviously you don't understand the America you live in (I won't insult myself or you by imagining *YOU* defended it). You see, there is no internal spying or monitoring of US citizens and legal residents. Has to do with "right of privacy," "searches require warrants". Your education was sadly deficient.

Nations that spy unlimited on their own citizens have organizations like the Cheka, OGPU, NKVD, MGB, KGB, FSB, Gestapo.

Clearly you think America must be spied on for its own security. Funny that all dictators (and dictator wannabees) say exactly that.

Just be remember Robert E. Lee was a US Army officer...until he became a traitor and was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US soldiers.

[Michale32086]

CONT

THIS is why wars are not run by committees.

This is why CT operations are not run by committees.

Because all too often and as we see here as a perfect example, EGOs start taking the place of reality...

Your current oversight, in the form of the majority of Democrats in the House and Senate **AND*** the current Democratic Party Candidate for President are telling you that HR6304 is necessary to the safety and security of this country...

Are ya'all going to be LOGICAL and RATIONAL about things and at least CONCEDE the possibility that you might be wrong and ALL those Democrats MIGHT be right??

Or are you going to respond with EGO and keep adding oversight and oversight and oversight until you MIGHT, MAYBE, POSSIBLY, COULD BE, PERHAPS get the oversight to tell you, not what the reality is, but rather just what you want to hear!

How is THAT any way to run a country and safeguard innocent lives???

Michale.....

[DavidJames]

Michale,

Terrorists are not all complete fools. They will use encryption to cloak their messages. The same industrial strength encryption technology that our government has approved for Top Secret information is available world wide. It is even used in Skype.

Broad communication surveillance for counter terrorism will not be effective, if all it can do is spy on unencrypted communications. If it will not be effective against terrorists using encrypted communications(terrorists and many other people use encrypted communications), Why are we doing it?

Regards,

[Michale32086]

}}}}}Broad communication surveillance for counter terrorism will not be effective{{{{

Again, I ask you...

With respect, what do you base this on?? What experiences within the realm of CT operations tells you this?

Michale.....

[kvet]

Hey Michale......

I agree with You !....(Oh No ! ).....Wars Should not be Run By Committees....CT Ops should not be run by Committees....(I Agree....it should be left Only in the Hands of Field OPs Commanders and Military Personnel....Not Civilian...)

But in Regards to the FISA Courts affecting OPs ?....Anywhere Abroard or Overseas ?....I believe its Completely Out of their Jurisdiction Application Thereof ?.....Isnt It ?

US Soil Certainly....And they have always Facilitated in complete Agreement to Safeguard Innocent Amerian Lives whenever Sought.

As for Democrats being in Unison ?....I will give you that too....there might be Situations the Public are not aware of.

Heres the But !....I ask you,,,,If there are Laws in Place to serve the very Purposes for which it was created, Then why Break them in the process ??...whats the use of having Laws in the first place ?

How can a Healthy Society or Country Thrive, Evolve, and Survive within a Collapsing Executive Internal Struggle ?....Its Fair to Ask,,,,Is that the way we shoudl run Or Country Then ?

[Michale32086]

}}}}I agree with You !....(Oh No ! ).....Wars Should not be Run By Committees....CT Ops should not be run by Committees....(I Agree....it should be left Only in the Hands of Field OPs Commanders and Military Personnel....Not Civilian...){{{{{

To most, it would be self-evident...

}}}}}But in Regards to the FISA Courts affecting OPs ?....Anywhere Abroard or Overseas ?....I believe its Completely Out of their Jurisdiction Application Thereof ?.....Isnt It ?{{{{{

With regards to HR6304, it states pretty clearly who is targeted for acquisition and where such acquisitions can be made...

}}}}US Soil Certainly....And they have always Facilitated in complete Agreement to Safeguard Innocent Amerian Lives whenever Sought.{{{{

Actually, no.. Any acquisitions coming from US soil or expected to end on US soil, HR6304 specifically states that the FISA courts must issue a court order..

}}}}}As for Democrats being in Unison ?....I will give you that too....there might be Situations the Public are not aware of.{{{{{

There would HAVE to be.. CT operations are simply NOT effective in the light of full disclosure... It's just NOT possible...

CONT

[Michale32086]

CONT

}}}}Heres the But !....I ask you,,,,If there are Laws in Place to serve the very Purposes for which it was created, Then why Break them in the process ??...whats the use of having Laws in the first place ?{{{{{

Because laws simply cannot foresee EVERY contingency.. That is why those involved are chosen for their initiative and their self-reliance..

}}}}How can a Healthy Society or Country Thrive, Evolve, and Survive within a Collapsing Executive Internal Struggle ?....Its Fair to Ask,,,,Is that the way we shoudl run Or Country Then{{{{

"No great country has ever been saved by 'good men'. Because good men will not go to the lengths that may be necessary.."
-Horace Wapole

I am sure you would agree that a country that has NO SECRETS would be a country with a very short half-life..

Michale....

[Michale32086]

For the record, "Or are you going to respond with EGO" the "you" wasn't referring to you personally, but rather to the part of the LEFT that is anti HR6304...

Michale.....

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

The people in a position to know that I have talked with tell me that telecom immunity is in it only because the Republicans will not allow any FISA bill to be passed - bills the protect the country - without it. They tell me that immunity has to do with protecting corporations from accountability and has nothing to do with protecting the country. (Why would retroactive immunity protect the country?)

They tell me that the Dem leadership wants to protect the country by passing the bill and it does not need telecom immunity to protect the country, but the Republicans are holding the bill that protects the country hostage to this one issue.

[Michale32086]

OK, in that regard and if that's true, I think it stinks...

Then the way to rectify this is, in November, get rid of all of the GOP...

With regards to the Telecom Immunity, I agree with Senator Obama.. The new FISA measures are more important to the country than getting a shiny new bat to beat the Bush Administration over the head with.

My PERSONAL opinion is that the Telecoms did what they did they were told it was in the bests interests of the country.. In that regard, I tend to believe that people are basically good and that the Telecoms did the wrong thing for the very best of reasons..

What can I say.. I am a liberal at heart...

Trust me, you won't find me jumping to the defense of the GOP out of "Party Loyalty".. Truth be told, with few exceptions (4 to be exact) I think you would find that I am the most liberal one here...

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

On the OTHER hand, you MUST also consider the possibility that you are being told this and it is not factually accurate...

Simply because you WANT to believe it to be true, doesn't mean it necessarily is true..

Michale.....

[magen]

To think that Bushco has been using this spying for the so-called "War on Terror" and NOT to spy on republiCONS political enemies is seriously naive.

Why did it start BEFORE 9/11??????

Why couldn't they just do it legally and get warrants?????

Why was Qwest messed with for not going along with it?????

These "people" are criminals-don't try to legitimize this.

[Michale32086]

@Mr Johnson

>We are a democracy and we are supposed to have
> transparency and oversight. In the absence of
>information misinformation can reign.

That is what was stated prior to the 2006 Elections..

Guess what?? You got your oversight. Democrats were given control of Congress..

NOW, that oversight is telling you the SAME thing you were told before...

NOW you want oversight to oversee the previous oversight...

What happens when THAT oversight tells you the same thing??

Are you going to want MORE oversight to oversee the PREVIOUS oversight that is overseeing the PREVIOUS oversight ad nasuem???

How many oversights are going to have to tell you something before you FINALLY believe it to be true??

CONT

[Lemeritus]

Ahhh... there you are Michale! Still with the last irrefutable word. AND CT ops! What a bonus!

[Michale32086]

@DavidJames

" I can assure you completely and unequivocally that CT ops simply CANNOT function without secrecy.. It's simply NOT possible..."

>You are completely wrong on this point:

And what experience or training do you have that allows you to make such a claim???

Michale.....

[DavidJames]

Michale,

Dave Johnson's blog is addressing the communication surveillance portion of counter terrorism operations.

In the context of communication surveillance, does knowing that all communications are monitored 24/7 mean that terrorist surveillance does not work?

Does knowing about the reinforced cockpit doors mean they do not work? In both cases there is a deterrent effect and terrorist activities are impeded.

However with communication surveillance there is actually no deterrent. Terrorists can eliminate the effectiveness of the surveillance by using high quality encrypted communications. They can even hide the encrypted communications in electronic images, posting them in plain sight on public web sites.

If terrorists can evade broad communication surveillance easily. Who is this broad surveillance for?

[Michale32086]

OK, let me ask ya'all something..

What do you want??

Do you want Oversite???

Michale.....

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

I want a requirement that warrants are obtained either before any wiretapping of Americans or soon after, in the event that something is happening too rapidly to get them at the time.

I also want non-administration oversight to ensure that the spying is for good reason and not for political advantage, as has happened under previous Republican presidents -- and could even happen under an unscrupulous Democrat.

I want punishment of those who knowingly broke laws.

[Michale32086]

OK great.. Awesome..... Common ground...

}}}}}}I want a requirement that warrants are obtained either before any wiretapping of Americans or soon after, in the event that something is happening too rapidly to get them at the time.{{{{{{

And you will get no argument from me on this.. ZERO.. ZILCH... NADA... That is one of the nice things about HR6304... It PROVIDES for all of what you list...

}}}}}}I also want non-administration oversight to ensure that the spying is for good reason and not for political advantage, as has happened under previous Republican presidents -- and could even happen under an unscrupulous Democrat.{{{{{

But isn't that what you have with Democrats controlling Congress?? Now, Democrats are saying the same thing the GOP was saying prior to 2006...

You have your oversight..

**MY** beef is that it appears that ya'all don't want to LISTEN to your oversight, SIMPLY because it is telling you something you don't want to believe...

}}}}I want punishment of those who knowingly broke laws.{{{{

And again, nothing in HR6304 precludes this... It simply remands "punishment" to the criminal courts.. Where it belongs..

It seems that you and I are a LOT closer on this issue than previously thought...

Michale.....

[kvet]

Attn : Michale32086....

Its about time !

My Question to You Was,,,,What Exactly was Wrong with the Original FISA Bill...?.....Not When it was Establised, (For we are aware of that,) or Whether or Not youre Supporting Mr. Obama (For We are aware of that Too!) or Your Extensive Law Enforcement Military Officer Information Gathering Liasion In Dozens of Countries Spanning the Globe....(For Im aware of that Too !!!...I have already Read your Profile.)...And I Say,,,Thank You !...For your Service to Our Country....and am in no way trying to Diminish Your Record...Whatsever.

Now,,,,The Issues you have raised,,,,and have stated in your Response,,,,Regarding The Original Bill being Inadequate making it impossible for CT to carryout its Operations and STOP at the Drop of the dime to secure Court Permission...Strenghtens the 4th Amendment for US Citizens in allowing Freedom and Mobility For CT Operations. Clear Distinctions between acquistions on Communications In and Out of the US.

Well,,,,To the best of my knowledge,,,,,The Original FISA Court has always met all Requests for the very purpose it was created, and has never Hindered or Stopped CT, CIA, DEA, USBG operations etc...In any way....they have always given their full support thereof. Whenever National Security was Involved.

Part 2 Follows

[EspressoAtNoon]

I want accuntability for crimes committed by the Executive Branch and telecom companies. That' can't happen if:

1. They are allowed to hide behind Executive Privilege to avoid testifying
2. Claim that all potentially incriminating information is classified.
3. Grant retroactive immunity.

Neither the government nor American Comanies are allowed to operate above the law, yet you think an exception should be made. Considering that this administration has no credibility left with the American people, why do you continue to trust them when they continue to hide behind the "terrorism" fear card?

Are you like one of those Neo-Liberal types (Alan Dershowitz)?

[kvet]

Part 2 For Michale32086:

So Your Argument basically is,,,The Original FISA Bill is Outdated by what you have said ?

I firmly Believe, The Original FISA Bill / Court,,,,served its very Purpose....And At No Time has it ever Jeopardized Our National Security...They have always Honored and Seriously Taken their Task to Heart with Full Cooperation on every Front !

Now,,,You mention Oversight ?.....It served that Purpose Too !....Until,,,,That is,,,,The LAW was Completely Not Upheld and Completely Ignored....

Heres My Point......The Orignal FISA Bll / Court Covered all of the mentioned above Adequately and served its very purpose...thats Until it was tossed out the window,,,,If the LAW was,,,Adhered To and Obeyed,,,,in the First Place we would not be having this Conversation...Now would we ? (My Second Point)

In Closing,,,,,We Have LAWS in Place for the very Reasons we find Ourselves In Today....and If the LAWS were Followed Accordingly?.....All Of this ?...Could have been Avoided.

[Michale32086]

}}}}}}Its about time !{{{{{

Cut me some slack... I was playing in the pool with the grandson... Jeeesh... :D

As to the original FISA updates (I assume you mean the Patriot Act updates), apparently the powers that be (Democrats included) feel that those measures are now inadequate...

MY point is, you have your oversight, in the form of Democrats who were given control of Congress in 2006..

But, ya'all don't LIKE what this oversight is telling you, so you want MORE oversight..

And, then if THAT oversight tells you something you don't like, what then?? Are you going to want MORE oversight?? And keep adding oversight and oversight until you are told what you WANT to hear???

Do you not trust the very Democrats that you elected to office???

Michale.....

[JBS]

I want to see the criminals go to jail.

[Michale32086]

Let's say you are driving down the road, merrily on your way. You stop at a traffic light and suddenly this strange man jumps into your car. He shoves a badge in your face and orders you to run the light and follow that green car ahead. He tells you that there is a very bad man in that car and that, if you don't help the cop catch him, many people will die..

So you, being the civic (no, not Honda!! :D) minded person you are, step on the gas, blow the light and proceed to follow the evil man in the green car.. You race down at breakneck speeds and somehow, miraculously, get the car stopped. The cop in your car jumps out and arrests the evil man and all is good and right in the world. The cop from your car comes up to you and says, "You did a fine job. THank you for helping me. I know you probably burned a lot of gas doing that, so here's a hundred bucks for your time and trouble.."….

CONT

[Michale32086]

Now, up roars a uniformed cop in a marked patrol unit. He jumps out of his car and approaches you. You look at him, expecting more praise, when he suddenly grabs you, throws you up on the hood of your car and cuffs you.

"I have been following you since you blew that red light! You're under arrest for speeding, reckless driving and endangerment..", he yells!

"But I was helping!!!" you state…

As the uniformed cop snatches the $100 bill from your hand, he says, "Helping, eh?? Looks like to me, you just did it for the money!!"

You turn to the undercover cop you helped and say, "Do something!!"…

The undercover cop says, "Sorry, you broke the law. I know it was a good reason and all, but.. hay.. All criminals should go to jail..."

So, how do you feel now??? Still think that "all criminals should go to jail?"

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

@KVET

}}}]Could you Tell me,,,,,,,Exacty !,,,,,what was WRONG with the Original FISA Bill ?{{{{

The original FISA courts were established in 1978. Due to the excesses of the Nixon era, it was felt that a court should be devised that would prevent spying for political purposes. Originally FISA targeted espionage activities committed by foreign governments. Since such investigations were conducted in civilized areas, it was felt that a 72 hour delay in obtaining retroactive court orders was reasonable.

FISA is completely and woefully inadequate to work within CT operations. Teams can be away from civilization and out of contact for weeks, maybe MONTHS at a time. It's impossible to STOP everything at the drop of a dime to secure court persmission.

HR 6304 makes clear the distinction between "acquisitions" of foreign communications and communications that end or originate with American citizens and/or end or originate on US soil.

In short, HR6304 strengthens the 4th Amendment protections for US citizens, while it gives our CT operations the freedom and mobility to do their jobs..

I fully support Senator Obama in his support of HR 6304.

In the interests of full disclosure, I have been involved in military and intelligence activities for almost a quarter century. I have been an LEO and an FSO and have served in two branches of the US Armed Forces. I was an MI EllTee during Desert Storm and have been a military and intelligence liaison to a dozen different countries spanning the globe.

Michale.....

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

"Teams can be away from civilization and out of contact for weeks, maybe MONTHS at a time."

We are talking about ongoing and pervasive wiretapping and other monitoring of Americans in America in the FISA discussion. I'm including SNA of communications patterns in this because it is a very powerful tool for political monitoring.

[Michale32086]

}}}}We are talking about ongoing and pervasive wiretapping and other monitoring of Americans in America in the FISA discussion.{{{{{

Please point to evidence of this...

Regardless of that, so you are saying that your "beef" is not with HR6304??

Michale.....

[JBS]

[PART 2]

NO PERSON SHALL BE HELD TO ANSWER FOR A CAPITAL, OR OTHERWISE INFAMOUS CRIME, UNLESS ON A PRESENTMENT OR INDICTMENT OF A GRAND JURY, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; NOR SHALL BE COMPELLED IN ANY CRIMINAL CASE TO BE A WITNESS AGAINST HIMSELF, NOR DEPRIVED OF LIFE LIBERTY OR PROPERTY WITHOUT DUE PROCESS OF LAW; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

In ALL CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS, THE ACCUSED SHALL ENJOY THE RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, AND TO BE INFORMED OF THE NATURE AND CAUSE OF THE ACCUSATION, TO BE CONFRONTED WITH THE WITNESSES AGAINST HIM; TO HAVE COMPULSORY PROCESS FOR OBTAINING WITNESSES IN HIS FAVOR, AND TO HAVE THE ASSISTANCE OF COUNSEL FOR HIS DEFENCE.

[JBS]

[Part 1]

}}}]Could you Tell me,,,,,,,Exacty !,,,,,what was WRONG with the Original FISA Bill ?{{{{

It violates the 4th, 5th, and 6th Amendments.

THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO BE SECURE IN THEIR PERSONS, HOUSES, PAPERS, AND EFFECTS, against UNREASONABLE searches and seizures, SHALL NOT BE VIOLATED, and no Warrants shall issue, BUT UPON PROBABLE CAUSE, supported by Oath or affirmation, and PARTICULARLY DESCRIBING THE PLACE TO BE SEARCHED, AND THE PERSONS OR THINGS TO BE SEIZED.

[JohnFromCensornati]

I wonder about the terrists who use Qwest.
Why didn't they get us?

[EspressoAtNoon]

I find it shocking that Dem Congresspeople aren't constantly making this point that the spying started before 9-11, when the administration wasn't even interested in preventing terrorism. Wouldn't this be like a point that would trump all arguments that Bush could make? This spying wasn't about terrorism - so what WAS it about?

The silence of the Dems on this point makes me wonder if they're terrified that the point in itself would make the public start to wonder if the 9-11 attacks wasn't somehow coordinated by the neo-cons. Granted the neo-cons probably just wanted to spy on the Dems or had some other sinister motivation, but Bush's entire argment for immunity was that the telecoms were assisting Bush to fight terrorism, YET the spying began before 9-11. This undercuts his entire excuse for spying on Americans.

What are the Democrats trying to help the administration to cover up, and why?

[kvet]

Attn : Michale32086

Mostly Everyone in here Knows,,,,,Youre in Favor of the New FISA Bill and its Passage.

Could you Tell me,,,,,,,Exacty !,,,,,what was WRONG with the Original FISA Bill ?

Awaiting,,,,your Response.....

[DavidJames]

Broad warrantless spying is only possible with unencrypted communications. Anyone not wanting their communications spied on, uses encrypted communications and is immune to message scanning.

This means that the warrantless spying is targeted at US citizens that believe their communications are private!

Currently high quality encryption is available anyone using US-sourced web browsers and email clients. Pretty Good Privacy(PGP) works with web mail. Skype provides encrypted telecom. If you use the full length public/private keys, your communications cannot be scanned.

From Wikipedia on Cryptography:

"In practice today, since the relaxation in US export restrictions, and because almost every personal computer connected to the Internet, everywhere in the world, includes US-sourced web browsers such as Mozilla Firefox or Microsoft Internet Explorer, almost every Internet user worldwide has access to quality cryptography (i.e., when using sufficiently long keys with properly operating and unsubverted software, etc) in their browsers; examples are Transport Layer Security or SSL stack."

[kvet]

Attn : Michale32086

Mostly Everyone in here, Knows You Support and Are In Favor of The New FISA Bill and its Passage.....

Can You Please Answer My Question.....

Could you Please Tell Me,,,,,,What,,,,,,Exactly,,,,,was WRONG with the Original FISA Bill ?

Very Curious,,,to hear your Response.....

[Dave Johnson - Huffpost Blogger]

In the 90s President Clinton tried to get everyone to use encryption. He proposed that an encryption chip be installed in all computers and phones. This would prevent anyone from listening in -- even the NSA if it didn't have warrants.

The Republicans went nuts and managed to block this. They actually said that by installing encryption chips Clinton was enabling the government to "listen in" on everyone's calls when in fact the opposite was the case.

Of course, anyone ALREADY COULD listen in because no one was using encryption. And because they didn't install these chips, anyone can listen in NOW.

In response to your specific message suggesting that people should use encryption -- here is the problem with that. Using encryption now, when almost no one does -- makes YOUR communications stand out. It tells the government that you have something to hide. So it CAUSES them to be very curious about your communications. I can't say whether or not the NSA is able to break encryotion but I wouldn't bet my life on their not being able to.

[DavidJames]

You make a good point Dave. One of my gun lovin right wing friends stopped using encrypted email because he was afraid that it would attract surveillance. I still use it on principle though.

The personal email digital certificates that enable secure email, in outlook or thunderbird, are available free for personal use from Thawte, www.thawte.com.

The best secure communication deal out there is Skype. With the wide utilization of Skype, which is encrypted with 512 bit AES encryption, secure communication is readily available. There are over 10 million Skype users online worldwide at any time so you will not attract much attention.

[Snoop2]

The reason the Bush Administration added the immunity loop hole for the telecom companies is a no brainer. They were obviously requested to spy on non terrorist subjects. Also in the news today is an article on how the Justice Department is going to allow the FBI to use profiling to spy on individuals or groups that have not now or may not ever commit a crime. They will be allowed to profile things such as ethnic type, those who had military training, those who made calls to or visited certain countries. They can now spy on you, me or anyone without a valid reason. This is what the whole domestic surveillance act is about, its' not about terrorism it is about the government being allowed to watch each and everyone of us. The President, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party have sold us out. They have have trampled on the US Constituion and ripped apart the fourth ammendment. As America and the world moves towards a new world order, it is imperative that everyone be watched closely. The governments will be ready to move on anyone who dissents against its' plans for our future. Time to be very afraid, of our government. We are beig watched so closely that Hitler, Stalin and Mao would be proud!

[Michale32086]

}}}}}They were obviously requested to spy on non terrorist subjects.{{{{{

It is statements like this that do a world of harm to your argument..

"Obviously" eh?? I can think of a dozen reasons why CIVIL LIABILITY for the Telecoms is important. And NONE of them have anything to do with "non terrorist subjects"..

But, let's run with it. Show me ANY evidence of your "obvious" statement. ANY evidence at all..

}}}}}Also in the news today is an article on how the Justice Department is going to allow the FBI to use profiling to spy on individuals or groups that have not now or may not ever commit a crime.{{{{{

Activities such as this have been going on since the 1950s....

}}}}}The President, the Republican Party and the Democratic Party have sold us out. {{{{{

Oh yes.. The ENTIRE government is wrong and YOU are right... Is that your position??

}}}}}Time to be very afraid, of our government. We are beig watched so closely that Hitler, Stalin and Mao would be proud!{{{{{

Fear monger much???

It is irrational and hysterical fear mongering like this that totally negates your arguments..

Michale.....

[DavidJames]

It is obvious to most people.

Anyone that does not want their emails and voice communications spied on uses encryption. Unbreakable, industrial strength encryption is available world wide. For example Skype, the IP phone, uses AES encryption at the same strength that US govenment has authorized for use with Secret information.

The only people that broad warrantless spying works on are people that do not use encryption. Like US citizens that do not think that the Bush administration is spying on them.

[FullChat]

Michale:

How do you justify the fact that AT&T was hooked up to the NSA on March 28, 2001 - months before Bush laughed off the Bin Laden warning. If there was no perception of a terrorist threat in August, why spy in March?

Remember why we have FISA? Nixon? Hoover?
Is there any doubt in your mind that it was spying for political reasons?

Please explain.

[indypete]

Mikey.... Relax, dude, you're safe enough. It's the rest of us that have to worry.

[syllepsis]

Michale,

racial profiling IS fear mongering.
Not to mention, any ACTUAL counterintelligence operation (which you seem to have fantasies about) is grossly hampered by the climate of distrust it fosters.
Intelligence gathering is a discreet business. And any concerned citizens who catch wind of some terrorist operation here are likely to be the same ones whose rights the State has violated already, in contravention of the Fourteenth Amendment. (to say nothing of several others). Second-class citizens are both less likely to be believed by the relevant authorities, and are less likely to notify the State at all.
It is pure idiocy. If you think Putin has stopped terrorism in Russia, with his vaunted FSB, that is utterly lawless, google away. It will give you some perspective.