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David Katz, M.D.

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Science and Smoke Signals

Posted: 08/27/2012 11:23 am

I have long felt a nearly irresistible compulsion to write this column: an impassioned defense of the scientific method, and a denunciation of willful denial, ignorance, and hypocrisy -- and the dangers that attend upon them.

I have felt the inclination for many reasons, salient among them the skin I have in the game. But it's not necessarily, or at least not preferentially, my skin. If you, or anyone you care about, has or is at risk for obesity, heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, etc. -- then it's your skin, too. I will return to the nature of the game, and the place of your epidermis (and mine) in it before I'm through.

I have resisted the inclination to write this for fear of offending someone's sensibilities -- religious or otherwise. I would prefer not to do so.

But now I have been goaded by a highly provocative, eminently sensible, and insightfully scary column in the New York Times on the same theme -- and I can resist no longer.

So if you are inclined to take offense, I'm afraid you will just have to go ahead: Science matters. There, I've said it.

My agitation on this topic has been stoked of late by a billboard I pass routinely along a stretch of highway in my home state of Connecticut. The billboard, placed by a religious organization, features the iconic representation of evolution in the upper left corner with a big red X through it. The rest of the billboard is taken up by a magnificent image of the earth seen from space, with the sun just peeking over the curve of the planet, with these words across the top: "In the beginning, God created..."

I have a couple of problems with this.

First, the only people to whom this billboard is visible are driving cars down the highway. Cars with computer-controlled transmissions and bluetooth wireless communication devices. Cars with anti-lock braking systems, cars with satellite-guided GPS systems. Cars that were engineered, products of science. The very same kind of science, the very same application of rigorous thought, and devotion to the incremental advances of arduous and unbiased methodology, that have produced our understanding of... other topics.

So, basically, we've got people whizzing down the highway in cars redolent with every feature of modern science, saying "amen!" to the renunciation of science adorning the billboard they would not be seeing were it not for that science, and those cars.

But that's actually the lesser issue with the billboard. The greater one is the beautiful image of the earth -- seen from space. God did not send us this image; we took it.

We have such images of the (round) earth, and of its place in the (heliocentric) solar system courtesy not of divine intervention -- but of orbiting satellites, telescopes, space stations, and shuttles. We have watched the science that achieved these marvels play out over our very lifetimes. And, ironically -- or providentially -- I received an online notice literally as I was writing this that the first man to walk on the moon, Neil Armstrong, died today. Perhaps my mission here has been expanded, then, to make some small contribution to his eulogy.

A billboard used to renounce the incontrovertible findings of a highly developed branch of science features an indelible product of science to help make its case. But people cheering the message glibly ignore that.

There is a word for endorsing scientific findings that confirm what we want to believe, and refuting products of the very same method that don't: prejudice. If we prejudge what science we are willing to believe, there is no point in doing science at all. We can just decide what is true and call it a day.

But in for a penny, in for a pound. If we are simply going to assert truths about evolution, or climate change, or how the female reproductive system works in general or following a rape in particular -- then we should rely on our own assertions to generate computers, cars, Internet connections, and modern medicines.

If we are left to sit on only our own ass...ertions, we would, of course, have neither car nor billboard image of the earth from space.

So now back to the game, and our epidermis.

I gave a talk this week on my usual topics, encompassing the potential for lifestyle behaviors to eradicate fully 80 percent of all chronic disease, before a large audience in a church in Independence, Mo. The audience was absolutely lovely -- welcoming me warmly at the start, and rewarding me with a standing ovation at the end. So all went well.

But I felt a pang of anxiety showing my customary several slides referring to our "native" lifestyle pattern in the Paleolithic era to a church audience. I showed them, but made a self-deprecating remark about evolutionary biology to combine the message with a light mood.

But I shouldn't need to be uncomfortable discussing implications of the Stone Age in front of any audience. It is an incontrovertible fact of science that there WAS a Stone Age. You can disbelieve it if you like, but it doesn't make it any less true.

I don't reference evolutionary biology because I want to be provocative. I reference it because it is directly relevant to disease prevention and health promotion efforts. Our long history and our adaptation to a native environment explain much about our biology, and the dietary and lifestyle patterns that best sustain it. I really can't do my job and neglect this topic.

Nor, of course, will it matter if I do my job -- striving to protect the health of individuals -- if we collectively complete the job of making the Earth inhospitable to human habitation. It's an area without much precedent, but I believe we may safely infer that people without a habitable planet have a hard time being healthy.

You may choose to believe, as some members of Congress apparently do, that women who get pregnant after a rape have chosen to let it happen. That this is entirely unfounded in science need not bother those who are dismissive of science. But are people really being dismissive of science if they fly in planes, talk on a cellphones, use the Internet, or get MRI scans -- or are they just... hypocrites?

Representative Akin's egregious remark would not even ring true among the ranks of history's institutional rapists. Warring armies often practice rape systematically, knowing it will leave the conquered to rear the offspring of their conquerors.

As for disbelieving in evolution, this really seems very odd, since most major religions -- including the Catholic Church -- and leading theologians have long since reconciled themselves to it, just as the Church once made room for the sun at the center of our solar system. Leading theologians accept evolution, just as there are prominent scientists who accept God. There is no need to renounce the one to have the other.

I am not, of course, a theologian -- but to the best of my amateur knowledge, Genesis never says HOW God created everything. Presumably, we wouldn't understand the methods if it did.

Who among us, then, is prepared to say how, exactly, God created everything? Does anyone have a memo direct from the Almighty renouncing evolution as a chosen method? An all-powerful God presumably could choose whatever method s/he wanted; why not the one the world's scientists consider the most elegant? As for the time required, a similar argument pertains. Who among us presumes to know how long a "day" is from the perspective of a God who purportedly created the sun we rely on for our own meager notion of it?

If one chooses to renounce evolution, then the question is: Why would God make the case for evolution so totally convincing to the best, most highly-trained minds among us if it weren't true? I don't think anyone wants to argue that God is in the business of willful deception -- and it's even less plausible that the radio s/he uses to send us missives doesn't work reliably.

So, perhaps you simply want to deny that scientists actually know anything. They think they know something -- but they're wrong. Scientists are blockheads, and only the religious devout actually know what's what.

Well, fine, but... Are you reading this on a computer? Do you use the Internet? Drive a car? Do you "believe" in these products of science?

The same meticulous processes and applications of science produced all of the technologies you rely on every day -- and the incontrovertible evidence of molecular genetics in support of human evolution, and an overwhelming consensus about the reality, advanced state, and ever-worsening peril of climate change. The same processes of science reliably predict calamity if global population control is not achieved somewhere between here and 12 billion. Doesn't it seem just a little hypocritical to use products of science, and denounce the merits of science? Doesn't it seem a bit unlikely that science is only actually working when it produces the outcomes you want?

We all acknowledge that prejudice is bad. It is no less so when applied to science. In fact, bias is one of the things good scientific method works very hard to minimize, because it is otherwise quite toxic.

Why do I care? Repudiations of science stand between me and my goals of health promotion for our families. They stand between us and the stabilization of global population growth. They stand between us and the protection of our fellow species -- on whom we rely, and who are just as deserving of life as we. After all, they, too, are products of creation -- whatever was its mechanism.

And they stand between us and stewardship of this beautiful planet we are exploiting beyond its tolerance. At least its tolerance for habitation by... us.

If the fables, allegories, and moral stories on which we all grew up have any value -- and we act as if they do -- it's not in the literal stories; it's in how we apply such stories to our own lives.

You are unlikely to encounter any literal races between hares and tortoises; but it would make sense to apply that lesson the next time a snake-oil salesman has a quick-fix, fad diet to sell you.

You probably will go through your entire life and not see an emperor parading naked; but you might think about the true meaning of that tale as climate-change denial goes on parade, or evolution denial for that matter. The same understanding of radioactivity that makes cancer radiation treatment possible underlies our dating of fossils. There may be some who renounce science so thoroughly they actually believe that life has been present on earth for only a span of several thousands of years. But for every one of them, I bet there are a hundred who know this emperor has no clothes -- but are reluctant to speak out.

The harms of this conspiracy of silence, of real or feigned ignorance, are staggering. They were highlighted most recently by the repulsive idiocy of Representative Akin in Missouri. But they extend to extinctions, droughts, floods, overpopulation, infectious disease, rampant obesity, rampant diabetes, and other slings and arrows of outrageous fortune of our own devising.

Science matters.

And while you are, of course, at liberty to disagree with me, you are not at liberty to do so online, transmitting electrons across cyberspace through the magic of modern science, without the hypocrisy of your action drowning out any rhetoric you choose to transmit.

No, if you want to deny the validities of science in a way that's at all credible -- if you want to tell me how much you dislike me and my opinion, and all the reasons I'm wrong -- in a manner that has any hope of being persuasive, I'll be looking for your carrier pigeon, or... smoke signal.

-fin

Dr. David L. Katz; www.davidkatzmd.com
www.turnthetidefoundation.org

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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Bob Metcalfe
Caught at 1st. slip trying to cut
11:37 PM on 10/19/2012
I've often wondered how they managed to handle the cognitive dissonance. Hypocrisy seems to work.
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10:14 PM on 09/14/2012
the scientific method does not rule out God, in fact, this presence can be demonstrated by any human being repeatedly and observed by an MRI image... no, science brings us closer to God.
12:45 PM on 09/02/2012
I like your arguments and how you state them, and I agree that it is the height of arrogance for ANYONE to presume they KNOW WITH CERTAINTY anything about our or the earth's origin. Science does give us plenty of clues, and our God-given intelligence to discover them should not be downplayed. Similarly, what I stuggle with is a planet, billions of years old, that has survived catastophic events that we can't even fathom (even WITH all our God-given intelligence), and then go on to presume that our mere existence on planet earth could somehow be even MORE burdensome or threatening. Whatever God's playbook involved, it is clear, in SCIENTIFIC terms, that the conditions for planet earth to happen, in a state that supports (mostly) intelligent life, is nothing short of a miracle. To conclude otherwise can only mean it was an 'accident'. Really? Is that what science would have us believe? Let's just stick to the human body for a second...reproduction, sight, the heart, the brain, circulation, all working in the most inexplicably sychronized way? An evolutionary accident? Sorry. I can't get there.
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Brad Feaker
Ubi dubium, ibi libertas.
12:55 PM on 09/02/2012
Then you know very little about natural selection in particular and evolutionary biology in general. The argument from ignorance carries no weight.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
solitude1951
09:21 PM on 09/14/2012
You live your life, surrounded by the miracles of technology and you are not the least bit self aware that you are doing so. You don't have to live with blinders on. None of us understand Deep Time. It's impossible with people who exist in this moment to understand. Or anybody else, for that matter. The position of earths orbit in relation to the sun almost guarantees, because of liquid water that down through the eons had time to work and produced life. Maybe it came in on a comet. One of these days we might know. Live in this moment without judgement and these questions and arguments become irrelevant. We don't know and can't know yet about something that happened that far back in the past. Why argue over it?
12:06 PM on 09/02/2012
Science matters and, because so, I take exception to your stated view of the advanced state of climate science. It is not in the same league as molecular genetics where knowledge of the genetic code has enabled duplicating it. Climate science is still learning how to integrate the complex interrelated factors of radiation, latent heat transfer, and a host of other weather related factors. Congratulations on advancements in fields you know well, but stop pontificating in the fields you don’t know well.

Not all sciences are created equal.
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Brad Feaker
Ubi dubium, ibi libertas.
12:54 PM on 09/02/2012
"Not all sciences are created equal."

What a silly assertion. All the 'hard' sciences, including climate science, use the same methodology. And all their findings are provisional, pending new discoveries. But to say climate science is somehow inferior to, let's say physics, is a willfully ignorant statement. Given, climate science is still growing, as are all branches of science. That is how we learn new things. But the current evidence for climate change is overwhelming. And these findings are NOT in dispute among scientists.

And take a close look at those 'scientists' who deny climate change. The overwhelming majority of the deniers are 'pontificating in the fields' they know nothing about. Please enlighten me to how many actual climate scientists are deniers?

Where did you get this idea? Can you please provide citations?
03:02 PM on 09/02/2012
Brad, I did not mean that climate science is inferior or less important. Only that it is “immature” and less “complete” in terms of what we know about what we don’t know. In the sense that we don’t know what we don’t know, then yes my assertion is silly.

I also did not and do not deny evidence for climate change. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t know that climate changes. What you may be referring to are climate hypotheses that explain what determines global temperatures. These ARE in dispute and I will list a couple of my favorite examples for you to explore as I have.

ClimateClash.com, scienceofdoom.com, and a blog by a well-known climatologist drroyspencer.com
06:28 AM on 08/31/2012
Long ago I had a neighbor.. He had a big job at the time at the UN, running the contracting for exploratory drilling in third world countries, not because he had degrees after his name, but because he had spent a life time running drilling rigs all over the world and had a reputation as a leader, friend of all, and straight-shooter. Among his best friends were the geologists that he worked with. He was Catholic, but you wouldn't know it by listening to him. One day the subject of evolution came up, and he opined that if evolution were true, then we are all just animals, and he had a hard time accepting that that could be true.

The evidence of neuroscience and evolution supports the view that our actions are determined by the brain following the known laws of science, and not by some agent acting outside of those laws. What that means is that we are just animals and are not morally responsible for our actions before the fact, because the immaterial "I" in the mind that the brain creates did not determine them. We can certainly be held responsible for our actions by other just animals, and we will be. But I am not willing to call my neighbor a hypocrite for not wanting to accept that.

If you think science is the hope of mankind, consider the death camps and the smart bombs. Science is a tool. I doesn't change who we are.
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Brad Feaker
Ubi dubium, ibi libertas.
01:01 PM on 09/02/2012
Then perhaps your neighbor should refuse to use drugs developed as a result of evolutionary biology. Maybe if he get MRSA, he should refuse vancomycin or rocephin because those darn staphylococcus aureus bugs didn't really evolve to be antibiotic resistant. It must be something else. That would eliminate the hypocrisy...albeit the hard way.

/sarcasm off
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05:31 PM on 08/29/2012
For some reason, I am reminded of a chihuahua that starts yapping the moment you stop petting him. Does hims want some din-din? :)
07:22 PM on 08/28/2012
I do not understand how people who know nothing about a subject can speak with such authority on it.

Referring to the comments section - not the article.
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Monrdhil
sustain-able climate
07:15 PM on 08/28/2012
Just a french proverb :

"Science without conscience is but the ruin of the soul"
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02:06 AM on 08/29/2012
Much appreciated.
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mctrap
The neuroplasticity of the sheeple is mind bending
02:16 PM on 08/28/2012
You have described the human condition very well, as you always do. The saying, "science doesn't care what you believe," fits appropriately here in regards to the many who are "possessed" with "willful denial, ignorance and hypocrisy" when it comes to the scientific method.

Indeed, we are now 100% dependent upon science for our future-survival. It might be said that: In the beginning, man created "god/s" to help explain his own ignorance and the lack of control over his environment. But, he was "saved" by science in the end, which continually took small steps for mankind during it's long evolutionary journey.
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SerbNik
06:31 PM on 08/28/2012
That is just plain dumb comment. You have no idea if God has created the universe nore do we know it. Creatonism is discussable sure but "the big bang" is even more far fetched then creatonists theories.
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Brad Feaker
Ubi dubium, ibi libertas.
01:03 PM on 09/02/2012
Spoken like a 'True Believer" (TM). Dear God, please protect me from your followers.
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Thinkster
I Think, therefore I POST!
01:03 PM on 08/29/2012
Great comment and a good point - it's past time for humankind to put the past behind us and look to the future, and Science is the best way we have at the moment. F&F.
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MysticLady
work'n hard for my poverty
11:07 AM on 08/28/2012
Thanks for an insightful article.
Our evolution seems to have led us to a fork in the path:
Religion vs. Science
In my research meanderings I have found that pre Christian religions were based on Science.
Christianity took a left hand turn two thousand years ago.
The time has come for the two to complement each other instead of being at odds or fighting each other.
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SerbNik
06:33 PM on 08/28/2012
How is that? Our biggest saints are educated people,scientists even. Learn the diference about Orthodox Christians and Roman Chatolics. We never had a dark age or crusades for example.
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Brad Feaker
Ubi dubium, ibi libertas.
01:05 PM on 09/02/2012
Does not make your dogma true. And what you believe is just as lacking in evidence. Just because your sect is less violent doesn't make it much better.
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David Katz, M.D.
Director, Yale Prevention Research Center; Editor-
09:57 AM on 08/28/2012
I appreciate the exchange of ideas, and share the concern that all too often we are receptive to ideas only if already part of the gospel to which we adhere. More's the pity. We can't learn much if unwilling to challenge our own convictions.

But I have not argued or even hinted that science is infallible. I have argued only for the value of its methods, which allow for this exchange in cyberspace. And I have argued against hypocrisy and prejudicial selection of evidence that conforms to our preconceived notions. Scientific findings- including those in my own lab- have at times dashed rather than confirmed my hopes. But if a product of reliable methods, I accept such findings as readily as the others I prefer. And I accept as well that understanding will evolve- and thus change- as evidence accrues over time. But I simply cannot type this and beam it into cyberspace and refute any science I happen to find inconvenient- without demonstrating flagrant hypocrisy.

Making the best use of what we know, and using the best means of learning what we do not, should not be a partisan issue- nor at odds with religion.
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SerbNik
06:36 PM on 08/28/2012
See you also failed to understand the hude diferences of roman chatolics and orthodox christians. We split 'coz of the things you listen. Also atheism has set science back a lot too in many communist countries.
11:12 PM on 08/28/2012
Truthfully they aren't that different. The RCC came out against and actively sought out to keep science away from their beliefs. The orthodox church didn't do much, there was no ecumenical council to decide how to address science which is why you have two distinct sects of orthodoxy which are compatibilists and incompatibilists one that says science and religion can be integral and one that says that they can't. Which basically ends up at the same place the RCC finds itself. Those within the RCC that say it is compatible and those that don't. So trying to say that they are completely different is well just not accurate.

As for atheism, that is false. In Communist countries the state becomes the religion. And whether that state pushes science or represses it is up to them. But to say it is the result of their atheistic belief is a false equivalence that exists only for those that try to rectify what their beliefs has wrought.
lastpost
see biography
06:31 AM on 08/28/2012
“the scientific method”
is inherently flawed. Think about it.

“fear of offending someone's sensibilities”
Or untested perception, of what constitutes actual reality.

"Science matters".
But is, like religion, a tool to be deployed to an end. Since if humanity is not perpetuated, what precisely will become of them both?

"In the beginning, God created..."
deep thought. Its just a shame he kept it to himself.

“basically, we've got people whizzing down the highway in cars redolent with every feature of modern science, saying "amen!"
One might suppose science would have by now devised a solid state Tibetan prayer wheel type app for that.

“the billboard they would not be seeing were it not for that science”
is as nothing. Compared to innumerable replications of a book.

“people cheering the message glibly ignore that.”
At last, a scientific explanation for the Republican effect?

“we should rely on our own assertions to generate computers”
Newton may have used gravity. He still didn’t know what it really was.

“I reference it because it”
provides a not altogether precise narrative, from which truisms ensue.

“striving to protect the health of individuals”
fed with science derived products not necessarily beneficial to well-being.

“MRI scans -- or are they just... hypocrites?”
Wouldn’t interrogation in an MRI scanner answer that?

“God created everything”
Even human fallibility.

"deny that scientists actually know"
their dark limitations.

"climate change."
Thanks science.

“opinion”
Humanity. A direct connection with reality does not abide in thee.
08:36 AM on 08/28/2012
“the scientific method”
is inherently flawed. Think about it.

OK.I did. i TOTALLY disagree.

HOW is it' inherently flawed? Perhaps it is. State how PROVIDE PROOF.

You can't. But try.

P.S. It is certainly a better method of arriving at 'reality', i.e., an interpretation of our senses that we can reliably use to predict our interaction in our environment, than ANY method YOU can make up.

Think about it.

Indeed.
08:38 AM on 08/28/2012
"Science matters".
But is, like religion, a tool to be deployed to an end. Since if humanity is not perpetuated, what precisely will become of them both?

And religion is at the very heart of the biggest risk to that perpetuation of our species. Rabid religous belief is the fuel that fires the imagination of men to destroy each other for their own gain. IF we don't grow beyond that soon, we will not exists.
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SerbNik
06:39 PM on 08/28/2012
Sorry wasn't it science that invented the strongest of weapons? Religion is cappable of great things so is science,but all men are cappable of destruction,saying only religion is responsible is a lie. Communism anyone?
01:25 AM on 08/28/2012
You don't have to read too many comments below to see that all the science vs religion stuff is just one big in group/out group fight. "My tribe is smarter than your tribe." When you attack some of the tribe's beliefs with emotion or logic, you get the same response - resistance. When someone puts a billboard about evolution, they are just talking to their tribe. They don't think they are going to convince you of anything - they are just hoping a few more believers will come to their service. When you attack one part of the Bible, they see it as an attack on the whole thing. And you know, non-religious people aren't that different. I am sure only a small percentage of "global warming believers" could explain how climate scientists have determined that only a small part of global warming is due to natural climate cycles. The scientific method is the most powerful method for determining the truth of something ever devised, but ultimately people believe things because they want to believe them.
08:49 AM on 08/28/2012
People believe things, because they HAVE to.

Think about it. Each of us has a model of reality. To us, our model IS reality, even for those of us who understand that it is flawed and limited (that's part of our model, after all).

The problem is, if you change your mind, then you must change interconnecting associations in your mind. Every thought is attached to something in that mental structure, and the more integral it is in that structure, the harder it is to change, because of all the other stuff around it that has to change. So, people don't like to change their minds, because it forces them to change their reality, and it takes effort and energy.

I note that if someone manages to force you to drop a particular belief that is critical to your model of reality, your whole model or big parts of it might be rendered false or irrelevant. In such a circumstance, if you can't replace that thought with something else to support your mental model, it all may come crashing down. You may be functionally insane. It can destroy you.

THAT's a pretty important reason NOT to change your mind!
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Monrdhil
sustain-able climate
07:20 PM on 08/28/2012
I believe laws are for the other and to let me act freely.

Now don't ever tell me not kill anyone, because
1) I have to act freely and whatever please me,
2) In fact, they are only products of my imagination and have no reality.

And don't tell me to change my mind, you explained it is dangerous for me.
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realitytrumpsbull
Two 'alves of coconut!
01:12 AM on 08/28/2012
I guess my question about this, not disputing the validity of medicine or science or its' methods, but how on EARTH did we ever manage to colonize this country, without OnCall 24/7 satellite-based health support? Have we now become so utterly enfeebled, mentally or physically, that we basically need the equivalent of a NASA ground control team, constantly monitoring our vitals, from minute to minute? I think there comes a point of diminishing returns with healthcare, where you can get into overdiagnosis, and maybe even more largely, societal hypochondria. I think frankly the pioneers were made of sterner stuff, and somehow managed to survive, learned some basic frontier medicine themselves, and again were of a hearty constitution not prone to various ills and ailments to begin with, having lived before the popularity of inoculation and other modern scientific and medical wonders. While it's indisputable that these fields have helped us to live longer, and healthier lives, there's also the issue of curtailing the intrusion of either into our daily private lives beyond a reasonable level. And, using whichever method you prefer, there's still the small issue of cost, and the fact that some degreed professionals sometimes succumb to an ailment unique to their professions: hubris, and the delusion of indispensability.
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rwgunn
Questioning a truth will not make it false.
01:59 PM on 08/28/2012
Many people will agree with you.... Until THEY have to deal with a personal health issue. Then all bets are off as to how much they will want spent on them.

People procreated for thousands of years before we started having the level of health awareness and health care but they also had life-spans of a few decades. You are more than welcome to go back to the same level of care but only if you will promise not to complain about what happens to you.
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LoneTree
Liberty is more precious than life.
12:25 AM on 08/28/2012
"So, perhaps you simply want to deny that scientists actually know anything."

You're a pretty smart fellow, Doc, but not very wise. You see a facade and assume that the entire monolith, sliced at any depth, would be identical or at least very similar to the appearance of the facade. That isn't what science would tell you to expect, so why do you do it?

I suspect you do it because the world is simpler that way. You don't have to look "behind the scenes" to ask any probing questions or evaluate any responses. You can just look at the first symptom and pronounce a diagnosis. If that were just your loss, it would be unfortunate, but it doesn't stop there. Nope. You hack and chop and hurl the chunks of bloody red meat to the slavering HuffPo community.

I'll bet you are more discerning, inquisitive, and insightful in your professional life. Would it be too much trouble to drag that approach to diagnosis to the public forum? I'm assuming that you're not just posting to maximize your audience, that at some level you really care about ground truths. Please prove me right.
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somepeoplelikeit
I was a poet and didn't realize it.
08:53 AM on 08/28/2012
That's a lot of words, but you didn't actually say anything.

That's impressive.
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samearl
What is truth?
12:34 AM on 08/29/2012
I thought maybe it's just me!
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02:05 PM on 08/29/2012
Some in these forums couldn't provide a ponderable thought within a 250-word limit to save the life of a loved one, let alone enlighten the general public. Their fear of ambiguity won't permit it. We're left sifting through a scrap heap for something -- anything -- that can be salvaged.

LoneTree does *not* appear to be one of those.
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01:11 PM on 08/29/2012
Very nice!