Can Vaccines Cause Autism? CDC: "We Don't Know"

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It was a big morning in Atlanta today. In case you missed CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding this morning on CNN's "House Call with Dr Sanjay Gupta," it was rather interesting:

TRANSCRIPT: Here

VIDEO: here

If I have read the transcript below correctly, Dr. Gerberding is saying that, yes, in some mitochondrial disorder cases, vaccines can be the trigger that causes "symptoms that have characteristics of autism." So, Dr. Gerberding admits a link -- but then denies that it is a link to autism.

The only problem with this line of argument is that I know for a fact that Hannah, as well as the kids in the new unpublished mito study were, as one doctor told me, "plucked right from autism clinics. They all have autism, there is no question of that."

JULIE GERBERDING, DR., CDC DIRECTOR: "Well, you know, I don't have all the facts because I still haven't been able to review the case files myself. But my understanding is that the child has a -- what we think is a rare mitochondrial disorder. And children that have this disease, anything that stresses them creates a situation where their cells just can't make enough energy to keep their brains functioning normally. Now, we all know that vaccines can occasionally cause fevers in kids. So if a child was immunized, got a fever, had other complications from the vaccines. And if you're predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism."

So, complications from vaccines can set off damage that causes characteristics of autism (just not autism itself). I don't believe I have ever heard that from a CDC official before, though that doesn't mean they never said it.

At the same time, this language does not quite jive with what Director Gerberding told reporters just over three weeks ago on a conference call:

"Let me be very clear that (the) government has made absolutely no statement about indicating that vaccines are a cause of autism. That is a complete mischaracterization of the findings of the case, and a complete mischaracterization of any of the science that we have at our disposal today. So I think we need to set the record straight on that."

I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word, "cause," is.

The CNN interview this morning with Sanjay Gupta continues:

GUPTA: Are we ready to say right now that childhood vaccines do not cause autism?

GERBERDING: We can say absolutely for sure that we don't really understand the causes of autism. We've got a long way to go before we get to the bottom of this.

GUPTA: And you are comfortable saying that with everything we know?

GERBERDING: I'll never be comfortable with everything we know. I mean, I think we have to have an open mind about this. We know that there is very little chance that something related to a vaccine is going to cause a serious problem for a child.

Amid the usual "vaccines save lives" answer to questioning if it's possible that childhood vaccines could cause autism, there is some new and interesting rhetoric in the CDC Director's statements:

To wit:

"Set off some damage"

"Have an open mind"

"Get to the bottom" of vaccines and autism.

"Ill never be comfortable"

"Very little chance" - instead of "there is no evidence"

"Something related to A vaccine" - (as opposed to several vaccines at once)

This seems like news to me, but I could be wrong. At the least, I think it is interesting, and worthy of follow up, should anyone in the media be able to talk with Dr. Gerberding. For some reason, she doesn't return my calls.

Comments

[melann830]

As this is World Autism Day, I would like to express my sincere thanks to the author for his research and information. This can only arm parents to better protect their children from the potentially crippling effects of the rigorous vaccine schedule. As a parent of a child on the spectrum, I do believe there is a strong link. I believe that they can cause or trigger ASD in children and will continue to do so if we do not stand in solidarity as parents on this issue.

[Scote]

Oh, wait, maybe I'm wrong. I just assumed that was a typo. Did you actually mean what you said "I know, the fourth one would not have been autistic had the child been vaccinated." So, are you conceding that vaccines don't cause autism?

[melann830]

They potentially either cause or trigger autism. Believe me, believe us all, no one wants to jeopardize the health of children by refusing to vaccinate, but it is not unreasonable to request or demand independent studies, a more lenient vaccine schedule and the complete removal of toxins from the vaccines. We can put men/women on the moon. We can do better for our children and all children in the world by listening to parents, testing children for pre-existing auto-immune, metabolic and mitochondrial abnormalites. Also, not to make light of this, but lets ponder this a moment. As women, we prep our hair before color treating it with chemical dyes, perms, relaxers. Why would we not prepare our children's bodies before by making sure they are not deficient in vitamins like B-12, B-6, minerals -magnesium, zinc, amino acids etc.. Why don't we start arming ourselves and our children's bodies before the administration of the vaccine schedule. This is something critical we should all consider.

[jhNY]

Perhaps I missed it in the comments thread, but is there anybody out there in Scienceland who has considered the possiblity that, as late as a few years ago,a lot of moms-to-be ate a lot of canned tuna? A mom I know ate a lot of it during her pregnancy (before the warnings about eating fish), as it was one of her favorite foods, and her child is now what they call 'on the spectrum'. Are there any studies which seek to find tuna's effect on the huge uptick in the incidence of autism?

[Clinton]

Don't know of any studies about this, but it does appear plausible. There's also concern with raw tuna in sushi and as sashimi. Expensive, and so bad for you.

[melann830]

Tuna and other fish which pregnant moms were warned not to eat contain mercury and other harmful contaminants. Also eating anything canned in general poses risk. My son is on the spectrum and our son's doctor has prohibited consuming anything canned.

[bluevalentine]

Hate fish.

I was careful about every morsel of food that went into my mouth during pregnancy....no mercury.

Child with CNS dysfunction, CAS, SID, dysarthria and expressive language disorder.

Funny, I do refer to this time in the vaccine era as cover-up mode, but it is interesting that in the last year there was actually a recommendation for pregnant woman to eat tuna, for the Omega's. It took 6 MONTHS, but the FDA did finally come out and say that they simply could not support telling pregnant women to consume tuna.

Go figure...

[Clinton]

If anyone has any doubts about mercury poisoning in general, here is a link that describes a tragic laboratory accident awhile ago.
http://www.udel.edu/OHS/dartmouth/drtmtharticle.html

Handling mercury organometallic compounds is dangerous.

There is tox data for Thimerosal [USAN:JAN]
RN: 54-64-8
available here:
http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/ProxyServlet?objectHandle=Search&actionHandle=getAll3DMViewFiles&nextPage=jsp%2Fcommon%2FChemFull.jsp%3FcalledFrom%3D&chemid=000054648&formatType=_3D

[Scote]

If I may be so bold as to say "Duh!" Did you see anyone claiming mercury is good for you? Strawman much?

The issue in this thread is primarily do childhood vaccines currently cause Autism? And, since Thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines years ago, if there was a correlation there would have been a dramatic drop in Autism in recent years--and there hasn't been.

[CraigWilloughby]

Go to the CDC's website and look up the Influenza Vaccines and the DTaP, and several other vaccines. You'll notice that no, Thimerisol has NOT been removed from vaccines.

And as to your question to who is claiming mercury is good for you? Watch this article.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZArebYZzdc

[Clinton]

Care to present the data? Care to direct anyone to where the data are?

[TimKasemodel]

want you to answer the question about why asking for vaccines without thimerosal (or aluminum at high concentrations) and spreading them out make us anti vaccine.

Answer or KWICHERBICHEN

[Clinton]

A bit of advice: if you don't really have any evidence to back up your arguments, it is better to admit that as soon as possible. And Latin phrases such as 'post hoc ergo propter hoc' may impress the uneducated, but many can recognize them for what they learned as sophomores in high school. It makes you come across as an arrogant fool (synonym for Republican these days).

The molecular structures of dimethyl mercury (a deadly poison that can penetrate rubber gloves) and thimerosal ( a known toxin) are similar enough to warrant further research into their mechanisms of toxicity (including partitioning in tissues and other pharmacodynamics). This is information one with your evident bias should have at their fingertips. And yet all we get are snide, sophomoric remarks. Hope this isn't too ad hominem for your refined sensibilities.

[melann830]

Mercury has not entirely been removed but merely drastically reduced. There are still traces of it. Also there are other chemical toxins in these vaccines-antifreeze allegedly for one. How many of you would walk into a bar and ask for antifreeze on the rocks?

[LBKN]

Scote,

What's your investment? Are you a pharm rep, or a pharm scientist, or a defense lawyer for the pharm, or a propagandi­st/disinfo­rmationist­? You have gone to some effort to shamanize the accumulated anecdotes that surround a preservative connection. You harp on the necessity of clean, hard science... but you should know... clean, hard science always starts as "anecdotal hypothesis"... followed by an unbiased investigation.

Your rants stink of bias.

[Clinton]

second that

[Scote]

It is sad when a call for sound, evidence based science is seen as a conspiracy. Speaking of bias, what standard of evidence would it take to convince you that their is no causal relation to childhood vaccines and autism?

If you are in favor of science--as you claim to be--you have to be open to that possibility. So what would you accept? Your problem in answering that question is going to be explaining how you are "open to science" while creating a standard that excludes the large body of evidence showing no correlation between childhood vaccines and autism--I suspect you'll use the "medical establishment can't be trusted" angle. So, if that's the case, who? And what standard of evidence?

[MidwestDad]

Shamanize?

[fil]

Ok......Try out this article.
http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080330/NEWS01/803300409/1075

In news-press.com
The Alvarerez have 4 children.
The first 2 were adopted ( not related) vaccinated and regressed into Autism.
Then they concieved a child.....­..vaccinat­ed.......r­egressed into Autism.

They had another child who is now three........not vaccinated......not Autistic.

I know, the fourth one would not have been autistic had the child been vaccinated.

The parent's should be thrown in jail for not protected that last child from all those childhood diseases........ or should they be thrown in jail for having the first two vaccinated and then stupidly having the third one vaccinated?

[KevLeitch]

In a previous post you stated:

..."the regression [could] be traced directly and temporally to immunizations"...

when you were referring to two kids - one of whom was Hannah Poling. In my opinion, consider the above, the regression might be able to be temporally traced to her vaccines, but directly? I don't see how. Taken individually or together the injuries presented as being those caused by her vaccines can't be used to come anywhere close to a diagnosis of autism.

What it seems the study authors have here (and I assume discussed with the CDC) is a mito/autism relationship. Pretty interesting but its link to vaccines is - at best - temporal.

http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/mmr.jpg

[Scote]

I like your diagram clearly illustrating the post hoc propter hoc fallacy as it relates to this topic, but the last one isn't the same fallacy, it's an invalid syllogism. So, while it is satisfying, it illustrates a different error in logic than the one you are trying to disprove.

[CraigWilloughby]

Going along this line of thought, and the somewhat childish and immature diagram that Kevin posted, let me posit the following statements:

At one time, everyone thought the world was flat. It was only through a THEORY that this was proven wrong.

At one time, everyone thought that the sun circled the earth. It was only through a THEORY that this was proven wrong.

At one time, everyone thought the moon was made of cheese. The big bang is just a theory, black holes are just a theory.

Are you saying that all of those theories are wrong, simply because, at one time, someone thought otherwise? There has been no credible scientific evidence to disprove the autism-vaccine link. I know, you're going to say that there are tons of credible studies out there. Show my one that is independant and not tainted by parties with a vested interest in the matter, then we'll talk.

Until then, here's some latin for you, since you seem to be so "fluent"

Age quod agis.

[KevLeitch]

1) Loss of previously acquired language
**2) Eye Contact**
**3) Relatedness**
4) disruption in CHILD’s sleep patterns,
5) Persistent screaming
6) Arching
7) the development of pica to foreign objects,
8) loose stools
**9) CHILD watched the fluorescent lights repeatedly during the examination**
10) fever to 38.9°C
11) inconsolable crying
12) irritability
13) lethargy
14) refused to walk
15) waking up multiple times in the night
16) having episodes of opisthotonus
17) no longer normally climb stairs
18) Low-grade intermittent fever
19) generalized erythematous macular rash
20) spinning
**21) gaze avoidance**
22) disrupted sleep/wake cycle
**23) perseveration**
**24) expressive language was lost**
25) chronic yellow watery diarrhea
26) appetite remained poor for 6 months
27) body weight did not increase
28) decline on a standard growth chart
29) atopic dermatitis
30) slow hair growth
31) generalized mild hypotonia
32) toe walking
33) normal tendon reflexes.

[TimKasemodel]

My child experienced nearly 100% of this list (not sure of the slow hair growth)

My child has markers that indicate he has possible mito dysfunction, which will now be resarched so people like you can stop saying there is no evidence.

This happened in conjunction with an accelerated vaccine schedule, nealry always given when sick and on antibiotics, symptoms of autism developing by 17 months.

My child has full blown DMS-IV autism.

I am sure that that you will say it is simply coincidence.

We say it is not.

Medical doctors within the HHS say it is not.

We are ineligable for compensation from VICP because we missed the limitations by a few months, so I am not in this for money. I personally think that 5000 cases against the VICP is letting them off easy.

Fact is Kev, you can ignore this and twist this any way you want, it was conceded, by the government (not a court) that vaccines caused autism. Period.

Your house of cards is about to blow away.


"This is not true and easily refuted." By the way, when exactly did this happen, must have missed it.

[KevLeitch]

...."If I have read the transcript below correctly, Dr. Gerberding is saying that, yes, in some mitochondrial disorder cases, vaccines can be the trigger that causes "symptoms that have characteristics of autism." So, Dr. Gerberding admits a link -- but then denies that it is a link to autism.

The only problem with this line of argument is that I know for a fact that Hannah, as well as the kids in the new unpublished mito study were, as one doctor told me, "plucked right from autism clinics. They all have autism, there is no question of that."".....

Hi David,

This is another variation of correlation not equating to causation. A few years ago it was thought that because autism became apparent in a child's life at roughly the same time as vaccines are given that they caused autism. This is not true and easily refuted.

The argument you make here is equally (in my opinion) illogical - Yes Hannah Poling is autistic. Yes, Hannah Poling was damaged by her vaccines. No, the two facts are not related.

How do we know the two facts are not related? Well, all we need to do is look at the symptoms that were presented as those being the result of vaccine damage (taken from Poling/Zimmerman Case Study and HHS report - features meeting DMS (IV) starred):

(PLEASE SEE NEXT COMMENT - HUFFPO HAS A TEXT LIMIT ON COMMENTS)

[foe2Hg]

Kev,

Is there more to this? I am not seeing your point. Looking at that list of symptoms, I could include my daughter and about 85% , possibly more,of the kids I know with autism to have had almost all those symptoms. That is why DMS is completely inadequate as these kids have such medical problems not ever discussed by the media, their peds, CDC and interestingly, from your camp.

Teresa Conrick

[foe2Hg]

I wrote DMS as I was copying from you but we both mean DSM IV, Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition. In case anyone needed clarification.

Teresa

[JeffMOM]

Gerberding = not sure what causes autism. But we are sure its NOT the vaccines.

Reminds me when OJ SImpson wanted to set up a reward fund to find the REAL KILLERS

[Scote]

In medicine it is common not to know what causes something. We rule things out slowly. Sometimes we find strong correlation that suggest causes. But it is very easy to make a non-contradictory claim that we don't know what causes something but we know some things that have **no correlation whatsoever** with the disease.

Let's try an example. Let's say we don't know what causes colds but we think the cause might be the phase of the moon. We do a study and we compare the onset and duration of colds and compare the data to the lunar cycle. There is no correlation. Therefore, we still wouldn't know the cause of colds but we'd know it wasn't the moon. And thanks to real science (not deinalism) we know colds are caused by viruses and are not, in fact, caused by the lunar cycle. Likewise, large studies have shown no increase in the incidents of autism with the kind or number of childhood vaccines.

Please don't confuse feel good aphorisms with sound science or evidence-based facts.

[Clinton]

It would be nice if more evidence based medicine were actually practiced. Some links to valid research studies to lend credence to your assertions would be appreciated.

[CraigWilloughby]

Sound science isn't sound when there is a conflict of interest involved. Any scientist will tell you that. There is a conflict of interest in all of Big Pharma's research because, if there was a connection found between vaccines and autism, then Big Pharma and the plethora of organization who's pockets they are lining would all be held responsible. So, it is in their best interest to do everything in their power to discredit anyone else's research that show otherwise, as shown with Dr. Wakefield and several others. Which is the very definition of a conflict of interest.

[Scote]

What causes colds? We know now, but lets say you didn't. Say someone proposes that the full moon causes colds. So, you study the onset time and duration of colds in a large group of people selected to be representative. You compare the dates to the lunar cycle. No correlation. Thus you still don't know the cause of colds but you know it isn't the full moon. Same thing goes for autism. They've done major studies. There is no correlation between vaccines and autism in proper studies.

[Scote]

Apologies for the near dupe. It seemed like the first one had disappeared so I re-wrote it and posted it anew.

[lisakaz]

...Con

I moved again and after the second opinion saw another neurologist who was willing to sign a form so I could get a handicapped placard BUT his idea of "treatment" was giving me antidepressants and suggesting a counselor. Why? No thanks. Went to see someone else, who does all sorts of modalities from supplements to acupunture. He examined a hair test, saliva tests, blood tests and the like. I also went to see a colonic hydrotherapist because he found I had digestive problems. One test showed probable mercury poisoning (the stuff that is used to preserve injections) . The hydrotherapist found (and I saw 'em) a very bad case of parasites -- as bad as anyone she had ever treated. A little internet searching will tell you that a number of alternative practitioners believe that the underlying cause/contributor to the diagnosis of MS is: 1) mercury poisoning; and 2) parasites.

I just took the supplements for mercury chelation: DMSA and Lipolic Acid. I may be doing this for the next year before I see results. I've seen minor result in one foot started to act more normally (not normal but improved).

Hence I don't buy that the docs-- protecting their market and themselves -- really care about facts anymore. Indeed, I've had more luck the past 5 years with chiropractors improving some serious problems.

Knowing my sensitivity to mercury, if I had a child, I would NEVER get him/her vaccinatinated. I'd find other ways to deal with illnesses.

[Scote]

"Hence I don't buy that the docs-- protecting their market and themselves -- really care about facts anymore. Indeed, I've had more luck the past 5 years with chiropractors improving some serious problems."

Nobody's perfect. But going to medieval doctors who prescribe enemas (now called colonic hydrotherapy) is probably not a good replacement for scientific medicine. Flaws in scientific medicine are not validations of medieval, non-scientific medicine, and the internet is big enough that a little internet searching will tell you anything you want, thus it isn't a matter of being able to find **something** on the internet "with a little searching," it is a matter of finding information that is based in fact rather than speculation. "Parasites" is not a diagnosis, by the way. A real diagnosis would refer to the specific pathogen, say Giardia. "Parasites" could mean fleas.

It sure would be nice if MS was caused by mercury and parasites. That would mean its preventable and possibly curable. God I hope that it is preventable and curable, but my hope won't make that a sound fact and I don't trust people who don't believe in evidence to have secret knowledge on the causes of major diseases--knowledge which somehow evades multi-million dollar scientific efforts to research MS.

[Clinton]

The medical profession doesn't really use science all the time, (>50% of 'treatments' have no scientific evidence to support their efficacy). It's almost something of a benefit that physicians have so little time for their patients. Less opportunity to mislead them. Better to endure their rudeness and get out while you can, start educating yourself. Too bad it's so hard to get unbiased information. We should make biostatistics and clinical trials design mandatory subjects for high school students. It would raise educational standards (because the prerequisites required would raise the bar) and the knowledge itself would hepl people to avoid falling prey to the medical 'professionals'.

[Clinton]

Also, the nobody's perfect remark is somewhat inappropriate, since 'perfection' isn't what is wanted. Most patients would be satisfied with mere competence. As the level of education rises the population is becoming increasingly aware that gross incompetence in the 'helping professions' is ubiquitous. The reactions to this by the industry aren't very confidence inspiring, to say the least.

[lisakaz]

Let me tell you a few things about these "gods" you call doctors. I don't trust 'em as far asI can throw 'em. I lost 5 years going to doctor after doctor who couldn't tell me squat. They never tested a lot of things that a naturopath tested almost immediately. They said nothing was wrong with me because their precious tests didn't tell 'em what to do. And it's all about tests (if your insurance will cover 'em). And it was clear I was struggling just to walk a straight line or more a block without getting exhausted. Guess what? A secretary for a history department gave me her opinion in 2004 (toward the beginning of this "adventure") and at least as per the most recent medical opinion, she was correct. She thought I had MS. But even as late as 2006 one neurologist was sure I had Miller-Fisher Syndrome. I got a second opinion then SOLELY because he had no treatment. What's the use of a diagnosis if you can't do anything about your situation? Useless.

Cont...

[justobserve]

I read the book "Louder than words: a mother's journey in healing autism" by Jenny MaCarthy, and the author found that vaccine doesn't cause autism but if your child has a weak immune system then his/her system can't handle the vaccine and its effects may cause autism (derailing normal development). So she suggests before vaccine you should have a test to see if your child's immune system is weak.

[LBKN]

Robert K. Jr. was on Scaroborough about a month ago... with an interesting statistic.

Lancaster Pa. Amish don't vaccinate their kids... there are three cases of autism in the Amish community there... but all three are adoptions... and were vaccinated before they were adopted.

[MidwestDad]

I can't believe RFK is still saying that. It's not true. The Clinic for Special Children in Strasburg, PA, has a weekly vaccination clinic. It also treats dozens of Amish children who present with symptoms of autism. RFK's anecdote comes from a UPI reporter named Dan Olmsted who wrote "The Amish Anomaly" in spring of 2005. Olmsted didn't bother to visit or call the clinic before he wrote his story.

http://autism-news-beat.com/?p=29

[S1m0n]

'Can Vaccines Cause Autism? CDC: "We Don't Know"'

You forgot the "There is no evidence of any kind that they do" part.

Put differently, there is exactly as much evidence that vaccines cause autism as there is that the moon is made of green cheese.

[CraigWilloughby]

"You forgot the "There is no evidence of any kind that they do" part."

Except for the Poling case and the other cases conceded by the vaccine court. Cases, I might add, that were conceded without any evidenciary hearing.

[andygaus]

Mr. Kirby,
I can't take you seriously until I hear your explanation of why autism rates have not gone down at all in response to the removal of thimerosal from most vaccines several years ago. Even if the removal is imperfect or there are some old stores of vaccines around, we should be seeing the drop. If you don't address that issue, it's hard for us to feel that you're any more of a scientific investigator than the Answers from Genesis Creation Museum in Kentucky.

[MidwestDad]

Mr. Kirby tried to answer that question once. Autism, he says, is still caused by:

1. Chinese industrial air pollution
2. Forest fires
3. Cremation of corpses with mercury dental amalgams

So it's still safe not to take him seriously.

[CraigWilloughby]

The same could be said of you, could it not?