It was a big morning in Atlanta today. In case you missed CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding this morning on CNN's "House Call with Dr Sanjay Gupta," it was rather interesting:
TRANSCRIPT: Here
VIDEO: here
If I have read the transcript below correctly, Dr. Gerberding is saying that, yes, in some mitochondrial disorder cases, vaccines can be the trigger that causes "symptoms that have characteristics of autism." So, Dr. Gerberding admits a link -- but then denies that it is a link to autism.
The only problem with this line of argument is that I know for a fact that Hannah, as well as the kids in the new unpublished mito study were, as one doctor told me, "plucked right from autism clinics. They all have autism, there is no question of that."
JULIE GERBERDING, DR., CDC DIRECTOR: "Well, you know, I don't have all the facts because I still haven't been able to review the case files myself. But my understanding is that the child has a -- what we think is a rare mitochondrial disorder. And children that have this disease, anything that stresses them creates a situation where their cells just can't make enough energy to keep their brains functioning normally. Now, we all know that vaccines can occasionally cause fevers in kids. So if a child was immunized, got a fever, had other complications from the vaccines. And if you're predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism."
So, complications from vaccines can set off damage that causes characteristics of autism (just not autism itself). I don't believe I have ever heard that from a CDC official before, though that doesn't mean they never said it.
At the same time, this language does not quite jive with what Director Gerberding told reporters just over three weeks ago on a conference call:
"Let me be very clear that (the) government has made absolutely no statement about indicating that vaccines are a cause of autism. That is a complete mischaracterization of the findings of the case, and a complete mischaracterization of any of the science that we have at our disposal today. So I think we need to set the record straight on that."
I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word, "cause," is.
The CNN interview this morning with Sanjay Gupta continues:
GUPTA: Are we ready to say right now that childhood vaccines do not cause autism?
GERBERDING: We can say absolutely for sure that we don't really understand the causes of autism. We've got a long way to go before we get to the bottom of this.GUPTA: And you are comfortable saying that with everything we know?
GERBERDING: I'll never be comfortable with everything we know. I mean, I think we have to have an open mind about this. We know that there is very little chance that something related to a vaccine is going to cause a serious problem for a child.
Amid the usual "vaccines save lives" answer to questioning if it's possible that childhood vaccines could cause autism, there is some new and interesting rhetoric in the CDC Director's statements:
To wit:
"Set off some damage"
"Have an open mind"
"Get to the bottom" of vaccines and autism.
"Ill never be comfortable"
"Very little chance" - instead of "there is no evidence"
"Something related to A vaccine" - (as opposed to several vaccines at once)
This seems like news to me, but I could be wrong. At the least, I think it is interesting, and worthy of follow up, should anyone in the media be able to talk with Dr. Gerberding. For some reason, she doesn't return my calls.
http://www.udel.edu/OHS/dartmouth/drtmtharticle.html
Handling mercury organometallic compounds is dangerous.
There is tox data for Thimerosal [USAN:JAN]
RN: 54-64-8
available here:
http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidplus/ProxyServlet?objectHandle=Search&actionHandle=getAll3DMViewFiles&nextPage=jsp%2Fcommon%2FChemFull.jsp%3FcalledFrom%3D&chemid=000054648&formatType=_3D
The issue in this thread is primarily do childhood vaccines currently cause Autism? And, since Thimerosal was removed from childhood vaccines years ago, if there was a correlation there would have been a dramatic drop in Autism in recent years--and there hasn't been.
And as to your question to who is claiming mercury is good for you? Watch this article.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZArebYZzdc
What's your investment? Are you a pharm rep, or a pharm scientist, or a defense lawyer for the pharm, or a propagandist/disinformationist? You have gone to some effort to shamanize the accumulated anecdotes that surround a preservative connection. You harp on the necessity of clean, hard science... but you should know... clean, hard science always starts as "anecdotal hypothesis"... followed by an unbiased investigation.
Your rants stink of bias.
If you are in favor of science--as you claim to be--you have to be open to that possibility. So what would you accept? Your problem in answering that question is going to be explaining how you are "open to science" while creating a standard that excludes the large body of evidence showing no correlation between childhood vaccines and autism--I suspect you'll use the "medical establishment can't be trusted" angle. So, if that's the case, who? And what standard of evidence?
http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080330/NEWS01/803300409/1075
In news-press.com
The Alvarerez have 4 children.
The first 2 were adopted ( not related) vaccinated and regressed into Autism.
Then they concieved a child.......vaccinated.......regressed into Autism.
They had another child who is now three........not vaccinated......not Autistic.
I know, the fourth one would not have been autistic had the child been vaccinated.
The parent's should be thrown in jail for not protected that last child from all those childhood diseases........ or should they be thrown in jail for having the first two vaccinated and then stupidly having the third one vaccinated?
..."the regression [could] be traced directly and temporally to immunizations"...
when you were referring to two kids - one of whom was Hannah Poling. In my opinion, consider the above, the regression might be able to be temporally traced to her vaccines, but directly? I don't see how. Taken individually or together the injuries presented as being those caused by her vaccines can't be used to come anywhere close to a diagnosis of autism.
What it seems the study authors have here (and I assume discussed with the CDC) is a mito/autism relationship. Pretty interesting but its link to vaccines is - at best - temporal.
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/mmr.jpg
At one time, everyone thought the world was flat. It was only through a THEORY that this was proven wrong.
At one time, everyone thought that the sun circled the earth. It was only through a THEORY that this was proven wrong.
At one time, everyone thought the moon was made of cheese. The big bang is just a theory, black holes are just a theory.
Are you saying that all of those theories are wrong, simply because, at one time, someone thought otherwise? There has been no credible scientific evidence to disprove the autism-vaccine link. I know, you're going to say that there are tons of credible studies out there. Show my one that is independant and not tainted by parties with a vested interest in the matter, then we'll talk.
Until then, here's some latin for you, since you seem to be so "fluent"
Age quod agis.
**2) Eye Contact**
**3) Relatedness**
4) disruption in CHILD’s sleep patterns,
5) Persistent screaming
6) Arching
7) the development of pica to foreign objects,
8) loose stools
**9) CHILD watched the fluorescent lights repeatedly during the examination**
10) fever to 38.9°C
11) inconsolable crying
12) irritability
13) lethargy
14) refused to walk
15) waking up multiple times in the night
16) having episodes of opisthotonus
17) no longer normally climb stairs
18) Low-grade intermittent fever
19) generalized erythematous macular rash
20) spinning
**21) gaze avoidance**
22) disrupted sleep/wake cycle
**23) perseveration**
**24) expressive language was lost**
25) chronic yellow watery diarrhea
26) appetite remained poor for 6 months
27) body weight did not increase
28) decline on a standard growth chart
29) atopic dermatitis
30) slow hair growth
31) generalized mild hypotonia
32) toe walking
33) normal tendon reflexes.
My child has markers that indicate he has possible mito dysfunction, which will now be resarched so people like you can stop saying there is no evidence.
This happened in conjunction with an accelerated vaccine schedule, nealry always given when sick and on antibiotics, symptoms of autism developing by 17 months.
My child has full blown DMS-IV autism.
I am sure that that you will say it is simply coincidence.
We say it is not.
Medical doctors within the HHS say it is not.
We are ineligable for compensation from VICP because we missed the limitations by a few months, so I am not in this for money. I personally think that 5000 cases against the VICP is letting them off easy.
Fact is Kev, you can ignore this and twist this any way you want, it was conceded, by the government (not a court) that vaccines caused autism. Period.
Your house of cards is about to blow away.
"This is not true and easily refuted." By the way, when exactly did this happen, must have missed it.
The only problem with this line of argument is that I know for a fact that Hannah, as well as the kids in the new unpublished mito study were, as one doctor told me, "plucked right from autism clinics. They all have autism, there is no question of that."".....
Hi David,
This is another variation of correlation not equating to causation. A few years ago it was thought that because autism became apparent in a child's life at roughly the same time as vaccines are given that they caused autism. This is not true and easily refuted.
The argument you make here is equally (in my opinion) illogical - Yes Hannah Poling is autistic. Yes, Hannah Poling was damaged by her vaccines. No, the two facts are not related.
How do we know the two facts are not related? Well, all we need to do is look at the symptoms that were presented as those being the result of vaccine damage (taken from Poling/Zimmerman Case Study and HHS report - features meeting DMS (IV) starred):
(PLEASE SEE NEXT COMMENT - HUFFPO HAS A TEXT LIMIT ON COMMENTS)
Is there more to this? I am not seeing your point. Looking at that list of symptoms, I could include my daughter and about 85% , possibly more,of the kids I know with autism to have had almost all those symptoms. That is why DMS is completely inadequate as these kids have such medical problems not ever discussed by the media, their peds, CDC and interestingly, from your camp.
Teresa Conrick
Teresa
Reminds me when OJ SImpson wanted to set up a reward fund to find the REAL KILLERS
Let's try an example. Let's say we don't know what causes colds but we think the cause might be the phase of the moon. We do a study and we compare the onset and duration of colds and compare the data to the lunar cycle. There is no correlation. Therefore, we still wouldn't know the cause of colds but we'd know it wasn't the moon. And thanks to real science (not deinalism) we know colds are caused by viruses and are not, in fact, caused by the lunar cycle. Likewise, large studies have shown no increase in the incidents of autism with the kind or number of childhood vaccines.
Please don't confuse feel good aphorisms with sound science or evidence-based facts.
I moved again and after the second opinion saw another neurologist who was willing to sign a form so I could get a handicapped placard BUT his idea of "treatment" was giving me antidepressants and suggesting a counselor. Why? No thanks. Went to see someone else, who does all sorts of modalities from supplements to acupunture. He examined a hair test, saliva tests, blood tests and the like. I also went to see a colonic hydrotherapist because he found I had digestive problems. One test showed probable mercury poisoning (the stuff that is used to preserve injections) . The hydrotherapist found (and I saw 'em) a very bad case of parasites -- as bad as anyone she had ever treated. A little internet searching will tell you that a number of alternative practitioners believe that the underlying cause/contributor to the diagnosis of MS is: 1) mercury poisoning; and 2) parasites.
I just took the supplements for mercury chelation: DMSA and Lipolic Acid. I may be doing this for the next year before I see results. I've seen minor result in one foot started to act more normally (not normal but improved).
Hence I don't buy that the docs-- protecting their market and themselves -- really care about facts anymore. Indeed, I've had more luck the past 5 years with chiropractors improving some serious problems.
Knowing my sensitivity to mercury, if I had a child, I would NEVER get him/her vaccinatinated. I'd find other ways to deal with illnesses.
Nobody's perfect. But going to medieval doctors who prescribe enemas (now called colonic hydrotherapy) is probably not a good replacement for scientific medicine. Flaws in scientific medicine are not validations of medieval, non-scientific medicine, and the internet is big enough that a little internet searching will tell you anything you want, thus it isn't a matter of being able to find **something** on the internet "with a little searching," it is a matter of finding information that is based in fact rather than speculation. "Parasites" is not a diagnosis, by the way. A real diagnosis would refer to the specific pathogen, say Giardia. "Parasites" could mean fleas.
It sure would be nice if MS was caused by mercury and parasites. That would mean its preventable and possibly curable. God I hope that it is preventable and curable, but my hope won't make that a sound fact and I don't trust people who don't believe in evidence to have secret knowledge on the causes of major diseases--knowledge which somehow evades multi-million dollar scientific efforts to research MS.
Cont...
Lancaster Pa. Amish don't vaccinate their kids... there are three cases of autism in the Amish community there... but all three are adoptions... and were vaccinated before they were adopted.
http://autism-news-beat.com/?p=29
You forgot the "There is no evidence of any kind that they do" part.
Put differently, there is exactly as much evidence that vaccines cause autism as there is that the moon is made of green cheese.
Except for the Poling case and the other cases conceded by the vaccine court. Cases, I might add, that were conceded without any evidenciary hearing.
I can't take you seriously until I hear your explanation of why autism rates have not gone down at all in response to the removal of thimerosal from most vaccines several years ago. Even if the removal is imperfect or there are some old stores of vaccines around, we should be seeing the drop. If you don't address that issue, it's hard for us to feel that you're any more of a scientific investigator than the Answers from Genesis Creation Museum in Kentucky.
1. Chinese industrial air pollution
2. Forest fires
3. Cremation of corpses with mercury dental amalgams
So it's still safe not to take him seriously.