Can Vaccines Cause Autism? CDC: "We Don't Know"

It was a big morning in Atlanta today. In case you missed CDC Director Dr. Julie Gerberding this morning on CNN's "House Call with Dr Sanjay Gupta," it was rather interesting:

TRANSCRIPT: Here

VIDEO: here

If I have read the transcript below correctly, Dr. Gerberding is saying that, yes, in some mitochondrial disorder cases, vaccines can be the trigger that causes "symptoms that have characteristics of autism." So, Dr. Gerberding admits a link -- but then denies that it is a link to autism.

The only problem with this line of argument is that I know for a fact that Hannah, as well as the kids in the new unpublished mito study were, as one doctor told me, "plucked right from autism clinics. They all have autism, there is no question of that."

JULIE GERBERDING, DR., CDC DIRECTOR: "Well, you know, I don't have all the facts because I still haven't been able to review the case files myself. But my understanding is that the child has a -- what we think is a rare mitochondrial disorder. And children that have this disease, anything that stresses them creates a situation where their cells just can't make enough energy to keep their brains functioning normally. Now, we all know that vaccines can occasionally cause fevers in kids. So if a child was immunized, got a fever, had other complications from the vaccines. And if you're predisposed with the mitochondrial disorder, it can certainly set off some damage. Some of the symptoms can be symptoms that have characteristics of autism."

So, complications from vaccines can set off damage that causes characteristics of autism (just not autism itself). I don't believe I have ever heard that from a CDC official before, though that doesn't mean they never said it.

At the same time, this language does not quite jive with what Director Gerberding told reporters just over three weeks ago on a conference call:

"Let me be very clear that (the) government has made absolutely no statement about indicating that vaccines are a cause of autism. That is a complete mischaracterization of the findings of the case, and a complete mischaracterization of any of the science that we have at our disposal today. So I think we need to set the record straight on that."

I guess it all depends on what the meaning of the word, "cause," is.

The CNN interview this morning with Sanjay Gupta continues:

GUPTA: Are we ready to say right now that childhood vaccines do not cause autism?

GERBERDING: We can say absolutely for sure that we don't really understand the causes of autism. We've got a long way to go before we get to the bottom of this.

GUPTA: And you are comfortable saying that with everything we know?

GERBERDING: I'll never be comfortable with everything we know. I mean, I think we have to have an open mind about this. We know that there is very little chance that something related to a vaccine is going to cause a serious problem for a child.

Amid the usual "vaccines save lives" answer to questioning if it's possible that childhood vaccines could cause autism, there is some new and interesting rhetoric in the CDC Director's statements:

To wit:

"Set off some damage"

"Have an open mind"

"Get to the bottom" of vaccines and autism.

"Ill never be comfortable"

"Very little chance" - instead of "there is no evidence"

"Something related to A vaccine" - (as opposed to several vaccines at once)

This seems like news to me, but I could be wrong. At the least, I think it is interesting, and worthy of follow up, should anyone in the media be able to talk with Dr. Gerberding. For some reason, she doesn't return my calls.

Comments

[foe2Hg]

It is incredible that Julie is able to keep up her act, still. She does appear to have changed her script a bit but it and the pink do little to put her on the roster of government officials who did their job. She and Paul Offit remind me of the pod people in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". No emotion, robotic lies, and will do whatever it takes to convert everyone. Is there a pod under your bed?

[PioneerKing]

multi-disease vaccines preserved with thimersol began to be commonly used approximately 30 years ago. one has to research hard to find cases of autisim in people 30+ years old.

[RimlandFanWA]

ummmm....P­ioneerKing­? Yoo-hoo-->please refer to this pdf file:
http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/080212.pdf

1983: 10 vaccines
2008: 36 vaccines

and how come no one has taken the Jock Doubleday challenge? it's worth ALOT of dough- if all those vaccines are as safe as Gerberding and Offit say, then it's easy money, right?

http://www.spontaneouscreation.org/SC/$75,000VaccineOffer.htm

(p.s. the offer is now up to $120,000- CASH- and they don't even have to inject it- just drink it!!.)

[PioneerKing]

RimlandFanWA

did you read my post. I am aware of the info in the PDF file

as I stated one has to look hard to find cases of people over 30 with autisim and it's even more rare in people over 40. the rise coincides with the use of thimersol in vaccines and the number of vaccines given.

http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/080212.pdf

How does mercury exposure affect us?
Mercury can be absorbed through inhalation, skin contact or ingestion. Mercury can travel a long way from the point of release, settle in the soil and drain into surface water bodies. Once in water, Mercury is converted to methylmercury by bacteria. Water borne creatures pass this toxin up the food chain. The concentration of methylmercury increases the higher you go in the food chain.

Low exposure to mercury can cause immune system dysfunction, muscle tremors and irritability. High exposure can cause speech and hearing problems, respiratory problems and sometimes death. Fetuses and young children are at greatest risk due to the ongoing development of their nervous systems. They could suffer from developmental problems in learning, walking, talking and birth defects.

http://www.keepmercuryfromrising.org/faq/exposure/index.php

[HappyHumanist]

"Are we ready to say right now that childhood vaccines do not cause autism? "

Yes, childhood vaccines do NOT cause autism.

Dr. Gerberding says further that, in some rare cases, the reaction of some child already damaged by a genetic disorder, may exhibit "autistic-like" symptoms. That does not autism make.

Vaccines are safe and effective. This wishy-washyness on the part of Gupta and Gerberding are stupid and only breed trouble in the "Kirby-vac­cines-caus­e-autism" section of the population.

Vaccinate your kids. Do it for their safety and the safety of the community. An unvaccinated child is a time-bomb to those with weakened immune systems.

Remember: 1 out of a million people die from the vaccine. But One out of a Thousand children die from Measles.

[TimKasemodel]

"But One out of a Thousand children die from Measles."

Where can the "original source of the estimated number" be found for this?

I am interested primarily when that particular rate was something was calculated.

[HappyHumanist]

I found it over 10 years ago, when I was beginning to argue with people who wouldn't get their kids immunized because they thought there was a link. That's how long this crap has been going on.

Autism is a complex, probably genetic condition. The teeny-tiny amount of mercury (which, BTW, dissipates in seconds after injection) has nothing to do with it.

[CraigWilloughby]

And 1 in 150 children develop autism.

This is a touchy point for many, including myself. People like you come onto these posts and ostracize, ridicule, insult and brow-beat all of us parents who are simply asking for better studies to be done on this link, independant studies not tainted by Big-Pharma. I've asked this on another post, and I'll reiterate my question here:

Would it be detrimental to the "herd-immunity" to spread the 36 vaccines out over a wider period? 2 of my 3 children are on the spectrum, one who is high-functioning and a little "quirky" and the other who is completely non-verbal. They followed the scheduled vaccines. My youngest isn't on the spectrum, and I vaccinated her at a slower rate, waiting a week or more between each shot. She's perfectly normal. I'm not saying don't get your kids vaccinated. However, would it hurt to spread out the schedule?

If Gerberding doesn't know if vaccines cause autism, then wouldn't it behoove the CDC and all agencies involved to do further studies on it instead of ruling it out and stonewalling all of us who want these better safety studies? Wouldn't it be logical to do a study on vaccinated vs. unvaccinated children in this country to rule out vaccines once anc for all?

[HappyHumanist]

What pisses me off is the way you and other parents have been manipulated by Kirby, et al.

Vaccinations do not cause autism. Study after study, meta-analysis after meta-analysis has answered the question. The experience you had with your children is just a story--not grounded in science or research. So, I will believe that you are telling the truth, but tell you that it wouldn't have mattered how the vaccine schedule worked for your youngest child. She does not hold the genetic defect for autism. Shall I tell you about my friend whose first 4 children are healthy and the fifth is the only one with autism? Four healthy vaccinated children to one. Looks like a crap-shoot to me.

But it is beside the point. The plural of data is not anecdote.

I don't blame you for searching for answers. You are not the problem. You are seeking a reason for this random, genetic roll of the dice. I can't give you an answer. But I won't lie to you to make you feel better.

Good luck with all your children.

[arjuna108]

May I ask, does it bother any of the anti-vaccine people that they take the same approach to science as global warming deniers? Is it Ok when it's my prejudice and only wrong when it's someone else's?

We often criticize the warming deniers for swallowing the ExxonMobil line of BS whole. Does it bother any of the anti-vaccine people that the story they are telling is one largely concocted by Scientology backed groups and remains heavily funded by Scientology and the Moonies, through front groups of course just like ExxonMobil?

Maybe Mr. Kirby would care to write about how the Scientology anti-science campaign differs from the ExxonMobil anti-science campaign and why we should presumably swallow one but not the other? That might be a more enlightening post.

[LBKN]

OK... lets say your local Child Services Advocate finds-out that an uneducated mother in a single wide is breaking-open thermometers and feeding mercury to her kids in their oatmeal? Key word shere are "uneducated mother"...

Now... suppose researchers with degrees have determined that mercury IM is acceptable­...


Which should get hung-out to dry? The ignorant mom... or the educated "Typhoid Marionette"?

[PioneerKing]

not anti-vaccine just anti-mercury. there is a way to have the vaccines without thimersol.

http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/pdf/Rachels_Environment_Health_News_937.pdf

[Scote]

Ok. List the current childhood vaccines that use thimerosal.

[arjuna108]

The level of difficulty with basic science and logic displayed in this post and the comments just really makes one weep about the sorry state of education in this country. It is unbelievable that someone with no ability to think critically about the facts of this case has a forum to cast innuendo aimed at supporting his prejudice in the face of contradictory evidence. Mr. Kirby goes to Rovian lengths to smear with carefully crafted but meaningless rhetoric.
There is one conclusion from this case...in very rare instances of children with a very rare mitochondrial disorder, stresses including fever from vaccinations OR INFECTIONS can lead to a brain disorder with symptoms similar to autism. And this leads to a conclusion about vaccines and autism in general how? Only through clever half truth. (Think for just one moment if we go back to the days of hospitals filled with children suffering from the diseases we vaccinate for, will fewer or more children with mitochondrial disorders suffer this effect from high fever?)

[lisakaz]

Let me tell you a few things about these "gods" you call doctors. I don't trust 'em as far asI can throw 'em. I lost 5 years going to doctor after doctor who couldn't tell me squat. They never tested a lot of things that a naturopath tested almost immediately. They said nothing was wrong with me because their precious tests didn't tell 'em what to do. And it's all about tests (if your insurance will cover 'em). And it was clear I was struggling just to walk a straight line or more a block without getting exhausted. Guess what? A secretary for a history department gave me her opinion in 2004 (toward the beginning of this "adventure") and at least as per the most recent medical opinion, she was correct. She thought I had MS. But even as late as 2006 one neurologist was sure I had Miller-Fisher Syndrome. I got a second opinion then SOLELY because he had no treatment. What's the use of a diagnosis if you can't do anything about your situation? Useless.

Cont...

[CraigWilloughby]

Well, in the next couple of generations, if the autism epidemic is not taken care of, you will notice that the 1 in 150 autism rate will change to every child has autism. THe rest of this country SHOULD be in a panic about this, because it affects them and their children and their grand-children and so on and so forth. It isn't "rare" as you say, because if it was "rare," you wouldn't see 1 in 150 autistic children. And don't tell me that this is a bogus rate becaus of better diagnoses and blah blah blah. Never in our history has there EVER been 1 in 150 mentally handicapped children.

I have a problem sacrificing any more children to your "Vaccination Gods" if there is even a single question about whether or not they cause autism.

[MomOf3AU]

Interesting PR slant with Dr. Gerberding's new "Yummy Gramummy" look. But I read the transcript. It's time to make some more calls to my Congressmen.

[Clinton]

You really can not trust these people. They are dishonest. It may be that these 'medicines' are harmful and getting a straight answer from the medical community is difficult enough to raise any reasonable person's suspicions. The possibility exists to thoroughly research these questions, but who would dare fund it? In the mean time, ask a lot of questions and refuse to be brow beaten.

[RimlandFanWA]

HuffPost's Pick

The "softer side" of Gerberding in pink is laughable. Put Ted Bundy in baby blue - he'd still be Bundy, yes? No amount of prepared testimony can put the cat back in the bag. Even Dr Gupta did not seem like he had confidence in Gerberding today (psstt....­..anyone asked Dr Gupta which vaccines his kids got?)

GERBERDING: Well, one thing that I remember is that the government is actually composed of MOMS AND DADS. AND THERE ARE ALOT OF MOMS AND DADS AT CDC WHO LOOK AT THIS THE SAME WAY. MANY OF THE PEOPLE IN OUR IMMUNIZATION PROGRAM ARE PARENTS OF YOUNG CHILDREN. SO THEY UNDERSTAND THE DILEMMA THAT A PARENT FEELS. But it's kind of our job to do the science to help clarify and separate concern from scientific fact. Autism is a huge challenge. And it is much more common than I think anyone realized. And we aren't doing enough. And we need to do more.

Hello, Dr Gerberding?? Goodness, you have not been keeping up on your agency's blog lately: http://www.cdcchatter.net/

From the blog: “Insiders Say Health Agency Head Gerberding Drives Away Top Talent, Embitters Employees” (March 3, 2008) http://www.washingtonindependent.com/view/independence-of-cdcc)

Oh Julie? The article says the moms & dads that work for you don't like you, you are a bully who refuses to allow independent research. They have lots in common with autism moms and dads. Its “kinda your job” to resign now, okay?

[CraigWilloughby]

And lets not leave Number 2 (Get-off-it-Offit) out of this resignation. I call him Number 2 because, well, that's kind of what he is, and Gerberding reminds me a lot of Dr. Evil for some reason.

[Kerbob]

Your post is interesting, but the pre-negotiated, pre-recorded message this morning was problematic in terms of credibility due to the jerky censor edits. I think CNN and the CDC underestimate the ability of the American people to detect a harshly butchered interview.

Perhaps you can start writing about relevant diaglogue as the real head of the CDC is the million dollar lawyer who reviewed and censored her?

I am writing because the statement also included a serious slip of the tongue.

Gerberding started to say "that's why we need to keep awar...." In context to her back-pedal away from a complete gaff, we are all aware that none of the other possible sources of mercury poisoning have historically caused Autism epidemics. Autism doesn't proliferate until Thimerosal shows up in the same sense we are all aware that fish did not cause Minamata.

What Gerberding meant by "awar..." was that the dozens of CDC media scholars and the ten million dollar a year PR firm need to continue on their disinformation campaign in order to effectively obfuscate the damage inflicted on so many infants and toddlers by Thimerosal­-containin­g vaccines.

Coupling the "awar..." gaff from this morning with your disclosure about Autism Speaks making a Herodic call for novel "environmental factors enhancement" research. That should make it clear.

Unfortunately, the media scholars at CDC do not consider is that in front of the general public this is coming off like the 'dead parrot ' sketch.

[wutsername]

Some entertaining guests on CNN this morning. Paul Offit might as well have said, “If I say it isn’t so, then it isn’t so.” Offit says, “It's been asked and answered. Vaccines don't cause autism. I mean, about 20 percent of children with autism will regress between often the first and second birthdays. So statistically, it has to happen where some children will get a vaccine. “They will have been fine. They get the vaccine. Then they're not fine anymore.” The children are developing normally, reaching milestones on or ahead of schedule. They get a long list of vaccines with no research to determine whether it is safe for them to be given at the same time, or within months of one another, and the kids regress into autism. It can’t be the vaccines because…autism and vaccines just “statistically” happen to some children at the same time. Offit is a pharma whore.

How long do you think it would take someone in Julie Gerberding’s position to access and review the Poling case files? Gerberding says, “We keep looking and looking and looking. And we really cannot turn up any informatio­n.” Really? Parents of autistic children and many doctors treating these children have been looking and looking, and we are turning up a lot of information. We are connecting the dots, while the CDC keeps cramming their doublespeak down our throats.

It is chilling that Julie Gerberding is still employed as CDC Director. She needs to go, NOW.

[MidwestDad]

That's quite the conspiracy you've uncovered. There must be, like, 500,000 people involved. It was bound to come to light some day I suppose.

[usna73]

Thank you Mr. Kirby. You must not let these people avoid this issue. The lives of too many are at stake here.

I have been in touch with my Congressman, Mr. Dennis Kucninich, through his legislative aide Mr. Edgerton. I have petitioned them to get the Poling case file unsealed. I've spokendirectly with Mr. Shoemaker,attorney for the Poling family who confirms that the Polings WANT THIS FILE OPEN FOR REVIEW.

We cannot rest. We must unmask the truth and the horrible government agency cover up that has gone on far too long.

[Scote]

It is time Gerberding be replaced, we need immediate action before another generation of kids is lost to the dangers and toxins of mass vaccination.

First do no harm...

Green our Vaccines, make them safe and non-toxic!

I can't but think that last sentence is a red herring. Do you really support vaccination? Given that you consider even the most tenuous and disproven evidence proof of harm, is their any evidence you would accept that any vaccine is safe, ever? Name one vaccine you think is safe and on what basis you consider it to be so.

Where as, we know many contagious childhood diseases are debilitating and lethal. If we don't vaccinate they will come back with a vengeance. That is an undeniable fact, an undeniable harm. I don't want to go back to those times. Do you? That's where you are taking us. Who's doing harm in this case?

[TimKasemodel]

Scote,

Why are you and so many others so threatened by having a conversation about vaccines? This particular commentary by David is based simply on an observation of Gerberdings past and present comments on the link to vaccines and autism. The comparison raises some obvious questions, and all you can come up with is a fear mongering diatribe against someone because she asked for safer vaccines?

As far as insinuating by having this conversation that childhood diseases "will come back with a vengeance" and it being an "undeniable fact", maybe you could share those facts with us that led you to that conclusion?

You write "I don't want to go back to those times. Do you?" - Frankly I would like to go back to the days before kids were given vaccines the day they were born and before they were given 3 and 4 at a time. Pretty simple really. And by the way, we know that many adverse vaccine reactions are "debilitating and lethal" in their own right. And that, my friend, IS undeniable.

[Scote]

"As far as insinuating by having this conversation that childhood diseases "will come back with a vengeance" and it being an "undeniable fact", maybe you could share those facts with us that led you to that conclusion? "

Were the anti-vaccination crowd primarily motivated by sound science and honestly weighed epidemiological calculations it would be worthwhile conversation. When, on the other hand, one outright denies that polio still exists, we can see the discussion is not grounded in facts or science. Further, when someone claims they just want the vaccines to be safe but won't even discuss what proof of safety might entail, we can further see the discussion is not an honest one. Some people, I suspect, are just against all vaccinations but pretend to be for "safe" vaccinations to make their position seem less unreasonable, whereas in reality they have no intent to consider any vaccine safe for children, ever.

[leftcoastindy]

"Where as, we know many contagious childhood diseases are debilitating and lethal. If we don't vaccinate they will come back with a vengeance. That is an undeniable fact, an undeniable harm."

Undeniable to you--not to me. Polio-gone; small pox-gone, mumps rubella-nobody gets those so who cares;

which childhood deseases are you talking about?

[Scote]

Polio gone? That's funny there have been 243 **diagnosed** cases this year alone. God knows how many undiagnosed cases there were. The reason there weren't more cases was because of vaccination.

Polio still exists. Undeniable to me. Deniable to you.

Since you positively claim you are **for** safe vaccinations what are your requirements for evidence that a vaccine is safe, especially given the minute and disproven evidence you will accept as evidence of harm? If you can't say what standard of evidence you will accept as proof of safety, your claims of being for for safe vaccination can't be taken seriously.

[Thrillcat]

I couldn't believe my eyes when I read the CNN transcript.

If Gerberding says "we don't really understand the causes of autism" than how can she say for sure it has nothing to do with mercury or vaccines?

Thanks David for writing about this whole coverup. I hope Gerberding has some money saved up because she's going to be unemployed soon.

[aynnie]

Is she really saying that we can say absolutely for sure that we don't know? It is no excuse to say she doesn't know more because she does not have all the facts of Hannah's case. If there were other cases that have already been conceded why hasn't she been looking at those? I wonder how hard she has tried to get Hannah's files. Has she called the family and asked for any part of her files?

Who makes up the panel that decided to concede her case? Is it a judge? In this case, when we say the "government" conceded, who is the government that looked at her files and made that decision???

[Clinton]

There's a possibility that she's waiting to read about it in a pharmaceutical ad. Enough physicians don't really read the primary literature. They're very lazy in that respect.

[TimKasemodel]

HuffPost's Pick

"GUPTA: Are we ready to say right now that childhood vaccines do not cause autism? "

Is it just me or isn't this a YES or NO question?

Why does it seem like public health officials always have to qualify their answers to questions like this? What I think she does not understand is that most people recognize she avoided answering the question. To even the most casual observer, not answering the question with a yes means it is still very much in the air. Three weeks ago Gerberding seemed to want us to believe that the answer this question would have been a firm YES.

To me this is a clear NO. But the most disturbing part of her overall interview with Sanjay Gupta is that, after sitting back and watching the numbers of autistic diagnosis rise to astonishing levels ( in Minnesota, 1 in 77 children age 6 to 11 in schools have autism), she can sit there with a straight face and say "we don't really understand the causes of autism".

The CDC has spent enourmous amounts of their time and our money to try to prove to us that vaccines DO NOT cause autism. In all this time they should at least have an idea of what might.

Until we can get a director of the CDC who can answer a question with honesty and clarity, without carefully parsed and qualifying statements intended to avoid the answer, the National Immunization Program is in big trouble.