Breaking news that physicians were involved in medical experiments on people already being tortured leads us again to a place beyond right and wrong. That place is called sin. Sin is strong enough to approximate dehumanization. St. Paul was brilliant when he spoke of sin as the things that we would not do, that we do, and the things that we do, that we would not. Sin clamps us in a vise. Sin crosses our intestines and then nails us to those crossed intestines. Sin gets your attention. Most people think torture is "wrong" -- and that is the problem. As soon as we realize that it is both wrong and sinful, we will find a way to put our waterboards -- and our measuring sticks -- away.
Christians define sin in at least three ways. One is that it is alienation or distance from God. A Godly person could not torture another person, nor could he or she measure the responses to that torture with the intent of torturing again. (Why else would a doctor measure torture's effects other than to help the state to sophisticate its weaponry?) A second version of sin is that of Martin Luther, called Incurvatus in Se. That means curved in on yourself. Your buildings are so much more important than other people's buildings that you have an excuse to torture to prevent any more attacks on your buildings. Ungodly people are so isolated, from each other and from their Creator that they imagine themselves alone in the universe. Once that self-obsession starts, it is an easy walk to torture and measurement of torture. A third version of sin, and Jesus' favorite, is that sin is self-righteousness. It is the one sin he fears cannot be forgiven. Self-righteous people are so convinced of their own goodness that they first demonize and objectify others, then they torture them, then they plan on more torture, and then they get physicians to help them measure how "good" they are at torturing.
The medical experiments done on tortured people are a triple play, if not a home run. They hit all the bases and concern even those of us who really believe that all sins can be forgiven. All? Yes, all. The sins of the bombers who bombed the World Trade Center can be forgiven. The sins of the torturers can be forgiven. God's grace is even larger than our sin.
By grace I mean the capacity of God to forgive even the worst sin. By torture I mean the intentional destruction of a person's bodily and psychological integrity. That term comes from Andrea Northwood of the National Center for Victims of Torture. Torture causes system-wide trauma in the individual who is tortured -- and trauma is the core loss of trust in the world. Those of us who prefer to look away right now will do so because of our own trauma, our own loss of core trust in the world, much less in forgiveness. Torture dehumanizes both the tortured and the torturer. It goes on to dehumanize the guilty bystander. Torture is sinful. It is separation from God.
It is also wrong. Why? It says you can't live by anything but power. God's love is considered smaller than power! You have become desperate. You are not even good at decent war. You have gone, with your victim, below the level of humanity. Torture shows just how scared you are. The terrorists win every time we become a caricature of a free people and rape, pillage, torture, cheat, waterboard, humiliate, make naked, or bully our way around the world.
It would be morally convenient to exempt the writer and the reader from the sin of medically measured torture. Unfortunately, grace teaches us something inconvenient. Grace is not cheap or easy. It involves a return to the bosom of a loving God. It involves getting over ourselves and how good we are. It means never saying things like, "If only we knew." Now we know. Now is the time to point the finger not outward but inward. What did we know and when did we know it? If you'd like to give up on democracy, then you can have the petty excuse of "not knowing." If you'd like to give up on grace, then you can have the petty excuse of not caring about people you don't know, either the tortured or the torturers. If you'd like to give up on God, you can live a life curved in on yourself. It won't be pretty, nor will it be joyous. But you will be able to stay nearly alive in the prison of your own self-righteousness. From there you could also probably find a doctor to measure your peace or happiness. There are alternatives -- and they all have to do with bending our knees.
Chris Durang: I've Written a Play on Torture
Why would techniques that succeed in getting false confessions have been of use, as opposed to the traditional and successful psychological interrogation techniques that have a history of working?
We need something like a truth commission in this country to explore how and why America became a nation that embraced torture at the highest levels of political office.
Mary Mapes: Looking Back at Abu Ghraib 5 Years Later
Five years ago, I was at work at CBS News in New York, holding a manila folder to my chest, guarding it with my life. Inside, there were pictures from Abu Ghraib.
Melody Moezzi: Who Are You Really Sanctioning, Mr. Obama?
As the Iranian Green Movement plans for renewed protests marking the anniversary of the election and as the regime continues to censor media and block internet access, Obama should reevaluate his position on sanctions.
Medical torture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
How Doctors Got Into the Torture Business - TIME
Report Outlines Involvement of Medical Workers in Abusive C.I.A. ...
If you're so concerned about torture, I suggest you look at our medical system and see how many people volunteer for "treatment" out of desperate need for it and end up being guinea pigs for our "scientific" community and drug companies.
Few people are aware that the ban on human experimentation was removed years ago.
If you want to do good work, help the doctors that are trying to get proper "informed consent" laws enforced for these people.
In short, apply your ancient theories to modern problems and get with the program. Talk is cheap.
There is no help for a Senator, no hope of redemption. They spit on their god with their first vote to kill others by proxy.
Torture? Look at the torture inflicted by so-called Christians during the Inquisition, the Crusades and other religious wars. The Salem witch trials in our own country. And it is probable that those who inflicted torture on prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay consider themselves good Christians, too.
Of course, if you read the Old Testament you will find that stoning people to death was justified in certain instances - burning your neighbors if they did not follow the rule for the Sabbath - and more. And yet people still quote the Old Testament in part, forgetting the crimes that were committed in the name of God.
No wonder so any of us have turned from organized religion. Too many seem to use Christianity to justify their actions and those actions seem not to be compatible with what should be the values and actions of Christians.
Any country's physicians who partake in torture whether by administering it or measuring it have indeed violated their graduation oath of "Physicians do no harm". Their expedient reasoning may well be "for the greater good" but this still does not absolve them what is a crime both in international law and a crime against humanity. If you want, for true Christians, it is also a sin in God's eyes. This is re-enforced by the fact that like the interrogators these physicians identities are often secret so avoiding the scrutiny of their peers allowing them to live a double-life of respected civilian physician and at the same time a darker, more sinister version working for governments. I don't know about most people but I would feel uncomfortable about having such a physician as a family doctor.
If only Teabaggers and Rethugs have read their bibles, they would notice that they pee against the wind.
1. One should love God with one's entire heart, soul, mind, and strength of (Mark 12:28–34)
2. One should love one's neighbour as one would love oneself (Galatians 5:14)
This is simply the stupidest thing I've read here on HuffPo in quite a while. I would fall under your definition of 'ungodly', and yet I don't think I am 'alone in the universe' or isolated from other people. Since there is no such thing as a 'Creator', saying I feel isolated from him/her/it is nonsensical.
In fact, if you look at the torture that occured in Guantanamo, it was at the behest of our very Christian president and administration. They spent their entire time on the campaign trail espousing their religion and never stopped talking about while in office. Trying to shove this horrific behavior off on the 'ungodly' is intellectually dishonest and, sadly, par for the course when it comes to Christian apologetics.
It is clear that you are simply repeating the tired old line of 'They weren't True Christians since they did this'. Sorry, but they are as Christian as anybody else - their behavior demonstrates that to the fullest. In fact, I do believe the god of the bible was a huge fan of violence and torture - he ordered enough of it at the hands of his followers.
Communism had its fling, but that was only for a century; Christianity's had two millennia of torture, ethnic cleansing, murder and genocide.
Every time a group tried to live under Jesus' sayings, they were usually quickly wiped out by the Church.
It was only about 100 years ago that Protestant-Catholic violence here began to decline. There were still laws on the books allowing the murder of Mormons until at least the 70's (in Missouri).
The established psychotic nature of Christian violence outshines anything that Muslims, past or present, have done.
Christianity is quite possibly the most schizophrenic of organized religions. I will submit that there are possibly real Christians that exist, people who follow nothing but what Jesus said. Unfortunately, we keep hearing and seeing the hypocrites and predators, as well as those who look to the dollar instead of God.
(It's no wonder that those who leave the Church have an abhorrence of all religion. The pity is that it's not the case at all; other faiths aren't necessarily the same.)
And many of the people are willingly victimized by their leaders, psychologically, financially, and at times sexually.
I'm not an atheist, but neither do I belong to a herd. My beliefs will not trouble anyone, and they'll die with me.
http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss138/bakatare/mine/religion-1.jpg
More and more, I feel there really are two kinds of people in the world. Robert Anton Wilson joked about the "neophobes" vs the "neophiles", maybe its people who politically lean left and people who politically lean right - I don't know.
A recent Pew poll showed that 75% of Americans believed torture could sometimes be justified. This is awful.
I've heard enough about the Evangelicals. I grew up as a Southern Catholic and they are my natural enemy, but I think I'm just going to take this to the athiests because they're pissing me off. Most athiests believe in a, and quote me PLEASE, 18th century philosophy that has long since been disproven wrong by logic, if that is the highest God you answer to, which most atheists claim they do...
Honestly, go to a church if you wanna discuss your stupid religion. Oops, I mean stupid spirituality.
I'm not a Christian and I already said so." ect..
Seriously, your response is to prove to me that I'm a Christian? I think I know. I don't believe Jesus was a god. I think he was an important religious figure and its rather relevant to this discussion. The universal moral code used by Humanists is based on the Judeo-Christian religion. The Golden Rule is simply what Jesus taught. Humanists then attempt to apply it to other religions, but it doesn't really work. Philosophers in the 19th century already determined that that was a load of BS, but you continue to believe it. Believing in something that is completely illogical when you claim to only believe in logic is a mythical belief system. "Science" has nothing to do with it. You are simply deflecting again. Have a lovely day.
. . . and *all* Jesus Freaks believe in a first century fairy tale that was divorced from logic from the beginning. Quote me PLEASE.
And among our other sins, we started eugenics and medical experimentation on unknowing or unwilling subjects: the Tuskegee experiment with syphilis was only one of many such.
Lobotomies used to be quite fashionable. Forced sterilization became policy in some parts of the USA, that "bastion of freedom for all".
The early Nazi party, supported by figures such as Henry Ford, Charles Lindbergh and Joseph Kennedy, took our ideas for their own. Henry Ford was one of Hitler's heroes; it's been said it's difficult to tell their anti-semitic writings apart.
What we think of as 'Nazi' behavior started here. Not only did large segments of the American population support the Nazis, but some people and companies (ex: IBM) continued to sell to them or support them after we were at war.
The United States unfortunately has, as you say, quite a knack for creating monsters.
there were some 'interesting' things going on at my boot camp, too.
but it's a sociologocal maxim that whatever's legal in one time and place is illegal in another time and place.
Calling torture sinful is certainly true, however you are not going to sell that to the christian evangelical right wing wackos these days. The self righteousness of the self righteous will be enough for them to look away and condone it as long as the USA is safe from terrorism.
The righteous will gather every Sunday morning in a great Heavenly congregation and worship in God’s presence. On our way to the Church service there will be a window to view Hell. We'll gaze at the sinners’ burning bodies and hear the weeping and wailing of the damned, tormented with fire and brimstone for all eternity. We’ll fully comprehend God’s perspective regarding the exceeding sinfulness of sin. The window will serve as an everlasting reminder to the redeemed of the awful consequences of sin lest we ever forget that sin separates the lost from all that is good and holy.
God is love.
Better living through a constant threat of eternal torture. Awesome.