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Dr. Denis Alexander

Dr. Denis Alexander

Posted: September 7, 2010 07:32 PM

The ideological uses of science very often become tangled up in the debate between science and religion. Theories that for the scientist do practical work in the laboratory to make sense of certain data, and help map out the direction for future research, can be deployed in the world outside for or against various political, social, religious or anti-religious agendas. In the process the science becomes socially transformed, the original meanings of words in scientific discourse conveying quite different connotations.

This trend goes back a long way, as well illustrated by the authors in the recently published Biology and Ideology: From Descartes to Dawkins (Denis R. Alexander and Ronald L. Numbers, eds, Chicago University Press, 2010). The 13 essays in this volume illustrate the many and varied ways in which biology in particular has been utilized for a wide range of political, religious, and social purposes from 1600 to the present day. The purposes may be beneficial, benign, or harmful in their outcomes, but all are "ideological" in the broadest sense of not being intrinsic to biology itself.

With the benefit of hindsight, historians more than others are in a good position to discern such uses and abuses of biological ideas. Whereas the twentieth-century abuses of genetics in eugenics and in racist ideologies are obvious and thoroughly described in the present volume, less obvious are the subtle ways in which the same biological ideas have been used during the same period for quite opposite ideological purposes in different countries, as described by Prof. Shirley Roe and Prof. Peter Hanns Reill. The supposedly "materialistic" biology that in France was utilized by the philosophes to subvert the social order in the eighteenth century was in Britain used as a key resource for natural theology, whereas in Germany it was being used politically as an analogy for the structure of nation-states.

Today the ideological uses of biology continue on as much as they ever did. In his chapter entitled "Creationism, intelligent design, and modern biology," Prof. Ronald Numbers describes how the biological theory of evolution has been invested with ideological overtones, particularly in North America, ever since Darwin published his On the Origin of Species in 1859. For some evolution became a philosophy that threatened to undermine notions of man "made in the image of God." For others, evolution became a political threat to the social order, subverting campaigns to achieve greater rights for the oppressed.

This was particularly the case for the original President Obama who never was, the thrice-defeated Democratic candidate for the presidency of the United States, and campaigner for liberal reform, William Jennings Bryan (1860-1925). Early in 1922, as Numbers recounts, Bryan helped to launch a crusade aimed at driving evolution out of the churches and schools of America. But Bryan's motivation was as much political as religious. He had become alarmed by the way that the philosophy of "might is right" reputedly fueled German militaristic ambitions during the First World War. Benjamin Kidd's Science of Power (1918), a book that influenced Bryan, purported to demonstrate the historical and philosophical links between Darwinism and German militarism.

It was Bryan's campaign that helped launch the creationist movement of the early 1920s, leading in turn to the infamous Scopes Trial of 1925. The movement benefited from another leading campaigner of the same era, the Canadian Adventist George McCready Price, who agreed with Bryan that the First World War, during which Germany put "the ruthless ethics of Darwinism ... into actual practice," provided ample evidence of the threat evolution posed to human freedom.

What Numbers brings out so clearly in his chapter is the way in which the theory of evolution was socially transformed into a bogey-man for virtually anyone who had an axe to grind. Rather than simply explaining the origins of biological diversity, it became an icon of materialism, or militarism, or atheism, or socialism, or capitalism. In fact evolution has been deployed since 1859 in support of almost every "ism" that exists, many of them mutually exclusive. All kinds of ideological barnacles became attached to the theory to the extent that the actual biology was obscured in the process.

Ironically, as Prof. Alister McGrath makes clear in his chapter entitled "Evolutionary biology in recent atheist apologetics," the presentation of evolution by the "new atheists" is in fact very similar to that of the creationists and more recent proponents of Intelligent Design. Opposite poles are often more similar to each other than either side might be prepared to admit.

In the hands of Prof. Richard Dawkins, evolution becomes an ultra-Darwinian philosophy in rivalry with the idea of creation. Dawkins argues that there are at present only three possible ways of seeing the world: Darwinism, Lamarckism, or God. The last two fail to explain the world adequately; the only option is therefore Darwinism. In such claims, McGrath notes, evolution becomes exalted to a metanarrative, infused with the ideological rhetoric of atheism.

The ideological uses and abuses of science are bad for science education, because so often the science gets lost in the rhetoric. They are also bad for religion, because scientific theories are always provisional, open to refutation, and simply not up to the herculean task of refereeing between pro- or anti-religious arguments. Darwinian evolution, for example, just happens to be the inference to the best explanation for the origins of all the biological diversity on planet earth. It's a stunningly successful theory, but it's best just to let scientific theories do the job that they're good at, and not invest them with ideologies that have nothing to do with the science.

 
 
 
The ideological uses of science very often become tangled up in the debate between science and religion. Theories that for the scientist do practical work in the laboratory to make sense of certain da...
The ideological uses of science very often become tangled up in the debate between science and religion. Theories that for the scientist do practical work in the laboratory to make sense of certain da...
 
 
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SilentSolidarity
So what do you need? Besides a miracle.
12:50 AM on 09/15/2010
Atheists are at least as bad as religious fundamentalists. Both are intolerant. Both claim to know the absolute truth. Both refuse to have a mature dialogue. Fundamentalists get overly personal, Atheists get cynic. Both live in a world of black-and-white, full of stereotypes and generalizations. It is sad an pathetic to see.
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emmanuel goldstein
Have you had your two minutes today?
04:11 AM on 09/15/2010
SOME atheists. If your going to qualify the religious side, you need to qualify the non-religious side as well.
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Bob Wood
A.T.C.G...(sigh)
12:43 PM on 09/15/2010
Based upon available evidence, I think the existence of any gods or goddesses unlikey. I'm an atheist and I claim no absolute truth, just probability. You paint with an over broad brush.
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wbthacker
Can YOU pass the Turing Test?
01:26 PM on 09/14/2010
I wonder, why does Dr. Alexander single out science for its potential for ideological abuse? What makes it any different -- let alone worse -- than ideological abuse of RELIGIOUS ideas?

Politicized science gave us Nazi eugenics, it's true. But politicized religion has brought us things like anti-Jewish pogroms, racial and gender discrimination, and criminalized homosexuality. All were based in interpretations of theological issues, which became popular in the culture then gained force of law. And because religion, too, is "provisional" and "open to refutation", these policies are now considered an injustice by most people.

Sp what's the point? People will use their best understandings to build their ideologies. I think it's far better for science to be the basis of those understandings -- even with the risks the author highlights -- than for religion to be that foundation. It's certainly no worse.
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Salvador Doggy
hi.
01:31 PM on 09/14/2010
Religion IS ideological. Science isn't supposed to be.
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wbthacker
Can YOU pass the Turing Test?
04:09 PM on 09/14/2010
You're right.

My point is, where do ideologies come from?

Consider two ideologies: capitalism and socialism. How does someone decide which ideology to support? The ugly truth is, most people probably don't think much about it, they just go with their gut. But I think we'd agree the better way to decide is to choose by some rational process of costs versus benefits.

If we base ideology on religion, someone might conclude that the command to "Love thy neighbor" demands a socialist system. Or that the Parable of the Talents demands that those who produce wealth be rewarded, so that capitalism is divinely mandated.

Is that really better than using what we know of science -- human behavior, economics, probabilities -- to decide which ideology is more likely to produce the greatest benefit? Even if we misinterpret science in the process, we can't do any worse than the religious approach.
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
08:07 PM on 09/29/2010
You are falling into the error of treating "science" and "religion" as equally valid choices. There is a a question of reality here; either God exists or God does not. If God exists, trying to form a world view that ignores God will be a flawed enterprise from the start.
While it is true that science can neither prove nor disprove faith, it is not true that the question is irrelevant. Furthermore, since science is the pursuit of truth, if God exists, there can be no true conflict between God and science; the strictly human construct of religion is a different question.
That said, the point that politicizing either science or religion will inevitable lead to problems is real and valid.
For the record, I am a thoroughly Deistic scientist. I do not, however, believe in a simplistic God that human minds can fully grasp. I take, on faith, that God knows and cares about me; beyond that, I try to live a life that Jesus would approve--kindness, respect for others, Golden Rule--and use science to understand the world as well as I can.
10:01 AM on 09/14/2010
Evolutionary biology and neuroscience tells us that all our experience is OBJECTIVELY meaningless; a mechanism created by the brain to serve the propensity to replicate of a biological organism. We can say that evolution "should" have no barnacles attached to it, but OBJECTIVELY the fact that "evolution" does have barnacles attached to it is meaningless; just an incidental pattern of neurons firing in service to the biological mechanisms of territoriality or dominance or whatever it is that perpetuates the species. This is the odd thing about our ability to rationally deconstruct physical reality. It leads us in a circle. Neuroscience has found no free willer in the brain; no control agent. What sense is there in saying that evolution should, if there is no agent to do the shoulding. Our experience and the reality it represents are fundamentally irreconcilable. People don't miss the problem. They avoid it. They pretend that science isn't saying what it's saying, or that it's saying something else. But they do get it. Ultimately science doesn't matter except as a tool of our irrational wants. It make us more effective, not more moral. Life is not a science project, whatever Richard Dawkins may opine. We live in our experience because that is the only place we exist; a representation created by the brain for the benefit of the organism's replication.
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emmanuel goldstein
Have you had your two minutes today?
04:13 AM on 09/15/2010
Felt experience, the only real Truth anyone ever gets.
09:03 PM on 09/15/2010
Enjoy the ride.
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02:05 PM on 10/12/2010
Heh, RD says pretty much the same thing in "The God Delusion".

Still, I think the human brain is more plastic than you give it credit for despite it's evolutionary limitations. Also, remember, decisions are made by a kind of voting process in the brain... no, not all neurons have an equal vote.
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PlayTOE
Morals evolved due to cooperative group living
12:04 PM on 09/13/2010
The debate on the reality of evolution is OVER.

Ever since 'super-bug' diseases with evolved resistance to new antibiotics showed up everyone has watched this theory operate before their eyes. There is no further debate over the reality of evolution.

As for the reality of a god? So far, no religion has came up with a self-consistent version of deity, and no proposed deity is remotely consistent with our observations of the universe. The nebulous term "god" may someday be linked to something real, but that will have nothing at all to do with the vindictive sky daddy that mass religions pretend to worship.
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emmanuel goldstein
Have you had your two minutes today?
02:58 AM on 09/15/2010
"and no proposed deity is remotely consistent with our observations of the universe."

Not so fast...

"Erwin Schrodinger, discoverer of wave mechanics was deeply influenced by the philosophical wisdom of the East. Schrodinger read widely and thought deeply the teachings of Hindu scriptures. He was particularly fascinated by Vedanta and Upanishads and developed a kinship with Budha and his techniques. Schrodinger also wrote about "The Basic view of Vedanta" by expounding Sankara's version of advaitha and non-dualism."
http://www.photonics.cusat.edu/article2.html

"Quantum physicists' interest in the Hindu Vedanta: science and soul consciousness."
http://www.wechange.org/science_spirituality/wigner_scientists_interest_in_hindu_vedenta_proof_soul

http://www.wechange.org/science_spirituality/sub_atomic_chaos_free_will_random_thoughts
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PlayTOE
Morals evolved due to cooperative group living
02:34 PM on 09/15/2010
emmanuel goldstein, are you seriously proposing that any religiously worshiped deity is even remotely consistent with Louis de Broglie's waves, or Erwin Schrodinger's wave equation?

The idea of an observer being necessary for wave collapse is interesting, but meaningless in terms of religion or the origins of life. Most of the "observers" used in experiments are simply machines, non living and only producing a permanent record of single events.

Yahweh Jesus, Allah, Krishna and other deity proposals (despite being worshiped by many) are simply incompatible with this sort of direction that some wish to use in physics to discover a god.
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02:09 PM on 10/12/2010
Naw, Creationists get around that nowadays by claiming belief in Micro-evolution but since they don't believe in Deep Time therefore no Macro-evolution.

Mostly they stick their fingers in their ears and go "lalalalalalala" to win the argument by default. :)
09:52 PM on 09/12/2010
Isn't it odd that the only people "debating" evolution are religious fanatics? It's simply not an issue unless your religious dogma gets in the way. Science has now dated the age of our planet, estimated the date of the visible universe, and continues to refine and update as new information becomes available. Only religion has a vested interest in keeping knowledge (actually superstition) static. Let the religious zealots argue all they want, they're only talking to themselves.
10:57 AM on 09/11/2010
We don't need to bash ourselves over the head for Scientists and Bible Scholars failing to agree on some aspects of evolution as propounded by Darwin and co-evolutionists. It may sound amazing, but there has to be a ground of agreement to forestall further collision of opinions. As mentioned in my earlier blogs, the writer of Genesis figuratively wrote the "days" of creation to conform with a 24 hours period having limited understanding to the length of time it took for formation of the Universe as we know it today, as evidence abounds that millions of years have passed for the occurrence of evolution till this day. As a Christian, I still believe wholeheartedly in Biblical history despite figurative verses, ironical statements, etc that can be found in some parts of the Bible; they have not devalued the Bible but enhanced it in a way that those with less spiritual enligthenment will not be able to unravel.
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TheWM
aka The Wrong Monkey
03:00 PM on 09/12/2010
"As a Christian, I still believe wholeheartedly in Biblical history despite figurative verses, ironical statements, etc that can be found in some parts of the Bible; they have not devalued the Bible but enhanced it in a way that those with less spiritual enligthenment will not be able to unravel."

Right. Because we are less "enlightened," we do not see such Bible passages as "figurative" or "ironical," but merely "mistaken."
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RichieB
Science is true whether you believe it or not
04:36 PM on 09/13/2010
If the writer of Genesis figuratively wrote the "day" of creation to conform to a 24 hr period, how can one accept the Bible as litteral. Plus the order of creation in the Bible is out of order. He created the earth and heavens first then said let there be light? We know as a scientific fact that the Sun was formed before the planets. With all due respect, do you really believe the story of Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark to be biblical truths? Have you ever really thought that through?
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UnderTheHedgeWeGo
Show me some evidence.
02:16 PM on 09/14/2010
The story of Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark ARE biblical truths. They are, however, factually untrue.
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US American
"...lightning ain't distributed right"
02:06 PM on 09/10/2010
I don't know about anyone else but I don't agree with saying the debate is between science and religion. I view it more as a debate between science and faith or belief w/o evidence.
ParadoxHarbinger
shoulder high in crap, water wings are flat
01:37 PM on 09/13/2010
which is a major cornerstone of religion, yes?
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US American
"...lightning ain't distributed right"
01:59 PM on 09/13/2010
Of course it is, I just like framing the debate to include more than just religion. I think belief w/o evidence is dangerous whether it is tied to religion or not.
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Angel1999
Microbiologist & Historian
12:53 PM on 09/10/2010
Scientific theories don't graduate to anything else. "Theory" is as high a level as is granted to any idea in science. "Facts" are just pieces of information that in and of themselves tell us nothing. Facts are assembled into a framework model that is generated from a hypothesis. Once the facts are substantially in support of a hypothesis, it becomes a theory. The theory may be discarded or adjusted if additional facts are encountered that cannot be fit into the model of the theory.

And before you ask, "laws" are not better than "theories." Laws are simply empirical observations for which you understanding of the mechanism has been elucidated. The Law of Gravity, was stipulated because objects could be observed to fall towards the center of the Earth, but the understanding for why this was so was not there. Now that we have a theory for why gravity exists, we no longer need to call it a Law; it's the Theory of Gravity.
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SocBeat
Bald and proud
01:29 PM on 09/10/2010
"Scientific theories don't graduate to anything else."

Well said! It would be nice to never have to read again that evolution is only a theory, but I won't hold my breath.
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TraceyES
06:09 PM on 09/10/2010
When Creationists spout this "theory" business at me, I usually reply, "Well, gravity is only a theory, too, but I bet if someone is about to drop you off a three-story building, you'll realize that it's true pretty darn quick."
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US American
"...lightning ain't distributed right"
01:51 PM on 09/10/2010
Very well written. I find it amusing that the word theory is used as a negative only against evolution but not against others like gravity as you point out.

#44 for you
06:26 PM on 09/09/2010
Love the picture on the main page. The monkey is clean cut and the human is hairy and unkempt.
06:09 PM on 09/09/2010
Maybe it's just me... But, I just don't get what the big deal is with the whole science-religion debate.

Evolution has a great deal of evidence to back it up, and as such I certainly accept it as science and therefore most probably truth. However, neither evolution nor absolutely any other scientific theory or proof can possibly change my belief in God, except to better understand the methods of creation.

Basically, science is objective and religion is subjective. If your religious beliefs clash with scientific proof, then I think you should seriously reconsider those beliefs as they're gonna be so much easier to change than an objective science.

I don't know why any scientist would care one way or the other about the existence of God since God is pretty clearly outside the realm of science. Understanding God or that there is no God simply cannot be accomplished through scientific means. Similarly the existence of God should have zero impact on the validity and accomplishments of science.

So, please, by all means, believe whatever you want. But, it's not going to change my beliefs, nor is it going to change scientific facts.
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Maezeppa
Happy-Happy Joy-Joy
11:04 AM on 09/10/2010
I don't know why any scientist would care one way or the other about the existence of God since God is pretty clearly outside the realm of science.

Science as a rule leaves questions about gods religions, etc. to the philosophers and theosophers.  But today science is in defensive mode.  Just a little delving will reveal a very large and sophisticated anti-science movement.  I should say, a movement that uses anti-science to create a wedge of provencial, fearful, angry and energized citizens.  These people can swing close elections to conservatives.   The conservative movement doesn't have an interest in having a science-literate populace.   Or a well-educated one.  Their take-away from the political unrest of the Sixties and Seventies was that when the middle class is educated and prosperous, it also gets uppity.   This is a threat to the wealthy elite.  Thus, we have the scions of the foes of FDR in bed with the Dominionists and Reconstructionists today. 
03:06 PM on 09/10/2010
Yes, that is too true. It's sad when science has to defend itself from religion. I sincerely hope we won't be dragged into another dark age...
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SocBeat
Bald and proud
01:17 PM on 09/10/2010
"I don't know why any scientist would care one way or the other about the existence of God since God is pretty clearly outside the realm of science."

I thnk there are two completely different dynamics at work here - one political and one scientific.

On the political front, a lt of scientists are naturally aligned with atheists (whether or not they're atheists themselves) in opposition to people who want to teach, in schools, creationism as ID as legitimate alternatives to evolution and geology; or who want to limit stem cell research; or who deny that climate change is worth discussion, etc. This is a matter of the separation of church and state, and when politics infringes upon science, scientists are going to get upset.

The second dynamic is simply the search for truth, and reaction to the bizarre obfuscation of scientific fact that is used to promote religious agendas. Your average scientist is fairly curious, reasonably pragmatic and quite precise. So when somebody asserts that there's no eidence for evolution, or quantum theory proves there's a god. or intelligent design is scientific not religious, your average scientist is going to react.

I think I react to both dynamics - it really annoys me when I see religious positions presented as legitimate bese for secular law, and I can't help myself when I read pseudo-scientific prattle presented as evidence for religion or against a sound theory.
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Eric Mann
Do you want to be on the opposite side of Progress
03:09 PM on 09/09/2010
If we cannot use the improved knowledge of how the world works that science provides us to modify our ideological beliefs, we are no better than the ancient Greeks that had the notion that the Earth couldn't be the center of the Earth, yet promoted that idea to disastrous ends later.

We may as well think of the Earth as flat, even though we know it is round. Yes, science eliminates the need for the existence of God for the universe to hum along as it does. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Do we continue to believe folk-stories made up to explain things we could not explain then, or do we become enlightened by the truth once we have discovered it?
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captric
01:58 PM on 09/09/2010
Calling the Bible anything but an interesting cultural artifact that gave the western world a millennium of darkness, centuries of religious atrocities, and political abuses that continue to do real damage to the lives of millions! The Bible should be required text in some classes, namely those that read Mien Kampf, Autobiography of Bernito Mussolini, Mao's Red Book, and the like as examples of the perfidies of the human psych and the dangers of the tribal nature of humans; not to mention the endless example of how easy it is to lead the human mob to actions that are inhumane and depraved!

Christianity, like the other Abrahamic traditions is a perverse archaic superstition of desert nomadic tribes of the middle east from 3000 years ago!!
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dashcat
Sanspoof is my idol
03:57 AM on 09/10/2010
I fanned you while fanning myself while readig your post. Very well said.
08:59 PM on 09/10/2010
Interesting that the other books you mentioned besides the Bible and their followers have been the cause of more murders in the last century that in the entire history of the world.
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Trismegistus22
Crescat virtus per certaminem.
10:49 PM on 09/10/2010
"WE'RE NUMBER ONE!! WE'RE NUMBER ONE! WE'RE NUMBER ONE!"
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captric
07:03 AM on 09/11/2010
Sources?
12:36 PM on 09/09/2010
Each is entitled to draw their own conclusion, with out ramming it down one another's throat. The better approach, in my humble opinion is to not rule any option out, because we have evidence of many, many plausible scenarios.
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Funkstronaut
The Prince of Wassoon
12:48 PM on 09/09/2010
Actually... We can rule out many, many creation myths. The science is simply too good now. We can pretty much discern that Nyx did not lay a golden egg on the wind, thus creating the earth.
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12:55 PM on 09/09/2010
That darn science, always ruining a good myth
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01:39 PM on 09/09/2010
"We can pretty much discern that Nyx did not lay a golden egg on the wind, thus creating the earth."

Yeah, but it can't be "proven" not to have happened ... therefore you shouldn't rule it out ... lest you appear closed-minded!
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01:08 PM on 09/09/2010
We have evidence of many many plausible scenarios? I would love to see that evidence.
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emmanuel goldstein
Have you had your two minutes today?
04:19 PM on 09/09/2010
How about the fact that we have looked in and out as far as we can and have yet to see anything that looks like an end. There is a seemingly infinite universe which has a value of 0! Why does stuff exist when it doesn't have to? You can say "it is because it is" but that doesn't answer the question. In a universe that doesn't have to exist, and does, there are also beings not only capable of life, but of understanding this seemingly random universe we find ourselves in pretty damn well. None of that is physical evidence, it's all circumstantial, but it's evidence all the same.
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Dan Jighter
11:18 AM on 09/09/2010
"the presentation of evolution by the "new atheists" is in fact very similar to that of the creationists and more recent proponents of Intelligent Design."

Really now?! The presentation of evolution by someone such as Richard Dawkins, who presents a clear understanding of evolution and the evidence for it, is some how the same as those who clearly don't understand the theory of evolution, show their ignorance when asking about "missing links", and ramble on about "irreducible complexity" as if they were talking science? Are you mad?! I'm very sorry, but the presentation of evolution by the Gnu Atheists is NOTHING like the misrepresentation of evolutionary theory provided by those creationist and ID ignoramuses.

Quotes like this contribute to my impression that this is yet another article designed simply to attack the Gnu Atheists and Fundamentalists for disagreeing with the blissful middle where science and religion join hands while signing Kumbaya.
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Maezeppa
Happy-Happy Joy-Joy
11:27 AM on 09/09/2010
Exactly my criticism!   The form a "presentation" , a lecture, for example, says nothing about content.  One is factual the other is superstitious, end of story.
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oldfuzz
...within my mind
10:58 AM on 09/09/2010
The fundamental (oops) problem with the faux debate between science and religion is the use of undefined terms...very unscientific.

What is science, of which the theory of evolution is a part? Since The Oxford Dictionaries of Science (Fourth Edition), Physics (Third Edition) and Chemistry (Third Edition) are silent, I executed a web search and found, amongst the myriad definitions "the systematic study of the natural world." Seems right. This, of course, begs the question, "Is there a non-natural world?"

On the other hand, what is religion? The Oxford Dictionary of World Religions (1997) offers about ten pages in the beginning (no pun intended) on the various present and historical meanings of religion with enough references, which if followed, could lead one to a career.

What is a bit disturbing in trying to make sense of this discussion is the lack of clearly defined terms. What is science? Do all "scientific" pursuits qualify? Dark matter(energy)? Black holes? String theory? Multiple (parallel) universes? Neuroscience? Evolution of language? And what is religion? Joe Campbell wrote The Masks of God, a four volume set, which is the most exhaustive study of religion I know. When asked what his religion was, Joe replied, "I underline books." His view was that the religious experience was what made you feel most alive.

It's interesting that anti-religion scientists seem to take a broad view of science and a narrow one of religion just as the anti-science (evolution) religious reciprocate.
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Maezeppa
Happy-Happy Joy-Joy
11:30 AM on 09/09/2010
Do all "scientific" pursuits qualify? Dark matter(energy)? Black holes? String theory? Multiple (parallel) universes? Neuroscience? Evolution of language?

Yes.  Even examination of voodoo and palm reading can be scientific if the approach is to find or exclude material explanations of material phenomena.  Conversely, one could worship a fossil as a sacred relic and that doesn't make the worshipper a scientist.
11:41 AM on 09/09/2010
IMO the reason that the argument is so pointed against a narrow view of religion (creationism, ID, etc.) is that these are what they are actually against. You don't have to be "anti-religion" to think science is accurate in what it describes. Beliefs that are completely contrary to all evidence don't deserve to be believed in by anyone. Why tolerate purposeful ignorance?

This isn't to say morality should be based purely on science, but without understanding how the world actually works how are you supposed to apply what is morally the right thing to do?
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oldfuzz
...within my mind
09:44 PM on 09/12/2010
1. While i agree that beliefs contrary to evidence are worthless, what of beliefs which transcend available evidence. Isn't this where scientific discoveries begin? Isn't it also the essential theme of religion?

2. Morality is an interesting issue. One could ask, which came first morality or science? One could also ask for irrefutable scientific evidence on anything and find nothing. We accept scientific proofs with the reservation that a Galileo or Newton or Einstein or Kepler or Curie is at work somewhere to jolt us into the light, probably to be criticized by his/her peers when the news breaks.