Frank Schaeffer

Frank Schaeffer

Posted: August 17, 2008 04:43 PM

Frank! As A Former Pro-Life Leader How Dare You Support Pro-Choice Obama?

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Dear Republican and Pro-Life Friends,
Thanks for the spittle-flecked emails as well as for the polite queries. Yes, I am aware Obama is pro-choice. Yes, I'm still pro-life. I also believe that with Obama in the White House that there will be less abortions in America than with the Republicans in power.

As you know I was a lifelong Republican until I reregistered as an Independent in 2006, after I just couldn't take the Rove brigade's dirty tricks, lies and slime any longer. When I worked to get John McCain nominated in 2000 I went on many conservative and religious radio shows to plead his cause. I started edging away from the party after seeing the filth the Bush crew got away with.

I know rather a lot about the politics of the "life issues." And I know you know that is true because you are calling me a traitor for supporting Senator Obama because of my leadership in the early stages of the pro-life movement.

You also know that without my late Evangelical leader father Francis Schaeffer's and my work (teamed up with C. Everett Koop) there would have been no Evangelical/Republican pro-life movement as it emerged in the mid 1970s. And on a personal note, having gotten my girlfriend pregnant when we were teens, I also know a little about the heartache that goes along with a very unplanned pregnancy. Fortunately we received the sort of support that made keeping our daughter Jessica possible. It could have gone another way.

That said...I know (as you pro-lifers do if you're honest) that the Republicans have milked the abortion issue, as have the Evangelical and Roman Catholic leadership, for every dime it's worth for fundraising, votes, power and empire-building, without changing much if anything. As I said, I also am fully aware that Senator Obama is pro-choice. I think his pro-choice views are out of character with his otherwise generous and enlightened world view.

The pro-life cause poisoned many of us who were part of it. Me included. It led to self-righteous hubris that extended to a general attitude of hate toward the "other." For instance power hungry strivers such as James Dobson and Pat Robertson took the passion generated by the pro-life cause and fueled their wholly illegitimate war against gay Americans with it, not to mention their multi million dollar empires. Our cause became all about power over other people, money and the muscle to win elections, not about the good of unborn babies and women.

I describe this corruption in my book, CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back. I explore what happened to us as we were lured by politics and money. So lots of folks who are in the Evangelical/Republican/Roman Catholic establishment and who are still earning a good living through the culture wars hate my book (and me) for spilling the beans.

Just for the record: my annual income was a lot bigger and more secure within the Evangelical fold than without. The big bucks in America are all about selling God, as Rick Warren, James Dobson or Joel Osteen can tell you, not earned blogging for lefty sites such as Huffington Post or writing novels as I do now.

That said... First, a nod to reality: even if Roe were reversed (it won't be no matter who is president) the abortion pill and the acceptance of at least some types of legal abortion by most Americans guarantees there will be access to abortion. Besides, on a state-by-state basis abortion would remain legal in most states no matter what the court does. And as we have seen the Republicans haven't really changed anything in thirty years.

So what do we who find abortion abhorrent do if we want to deal in reality rather than fantasies and slogans of winner-take-all propaganda? The reality is that we need to foster a climate in which we can reduce the number of abortions and also keep the moral -- rather than legal -- debate alive.

We can't do this by concentrating on politics, or silver bullets such as trying for that one magic court appointment. It's the "holistic" approach that is really what's important if our goal is to reduce the number of abortions rather than just "win" political games.

The effort to reduce abortions will be more possible in the Obama era than in a continuation of the hardhearted Bush presidency with McCain. This is all about tone and moral leadership, not law.

At heart of the abortion reality is this: we are a consumerist society with a heart of stone when it comes to the poor, who account for four times the national average of people having abortions, mostly because of economic needs that Republicans don't lift a finger to address. And we still denigrate women and female sexuality.

Meanwhile we face global catastrophe if we keep on the path we are on that the Republicans have put us on. And Obama promises real change on the environment, education, the economy, the military and foreign affairs, all of which need to change, not as a luxury or choice or option, but as a matter of national survival.

I guess that having had my Marine son John go to war for George W. Bush concentrated my mind on the seriousness of this election. McCain won't do more than provide another four-to-eight years of Bush. Our planet and country can't endure that. And our military is disintegrating under the Bush doctrine, which is: "You all go shopping while we ask a few Americans to go to war again and again and again and again..."

For all you sanctimonious Evangelicals out there, also note: when it comes to squeaky clean family values, Senator Obama -- not Senator McCain -- should be your role model. The Republican right wants us to draw back in horror from Obama because he is pro-choice, but this is the same group working to get a philanderer who abandoned his wife because she had a disfiguring accident, elected.

It isn't just a matter of voting for Obama. Americans who want there to be a country left in which to argue our issues must vote against McCain. As his support for the Bush lies about Iraq shows McCain is hung up on his own version of post-Vietnam traumatic stress disorder. This is a man who would take our civilian culture down in flames and sacrifice it to his sense of death-or-glory military "honor." How do you "win" a wrong war? McCain will make the world more dangerous. You think Bush was a cowboy? Just try McCain.

I say this as the proud father of United States Marine. I say this as someone who believes that we should be in Afghanistan where my son served, fought and risked his life for us all. I also say this as someone who believes that when it comes to pro-life issues in the most comprehensive sense, that President Bush, Dick Cheney and the neoconservative/Republican establishment have needlessly killed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis and over 4000 American servicemen and women.

I use the words "needlessly killed" advisedly. When you send men and women into an unnecessary and unprovoked war-of-choice for spurious reasons that then turn into outright lies, you've murdered them. And George W. Bush has sanctioned torture, contravened the Geneva conventions, and has lied to the American people about all of it.

Bush has destabilized the world. The latest evidence of this is the fact that Russia attacked Georgia. In the climate of Bush's aggression, where is our moral standing to criticize Russia? McCain offers no alternative. These too are life issues.

There's no point arguing about abortion, capital punishment, women's rights, gender equality or any other issue -- no matter how important -- while the ship of state is being torpedoed by the Commander-in-Chief. We can't afford more of this. Our honorable military can't endure more of this. Our economy can't endure more of this. Our Earth will not survive more of this. Bush and his look alike shill McCain have to go.

When it comes to the issue of abortion there is another side besides legality/illegality: the nature of our country.

What kind of care do we provide to mothers and children? What is our educational system like? Is healthcare available to all? Do our preschool programs and everything from paternal and maternal leave to the economic well-being of our country come first? Or do we argue about abortion rights while we live lives of such supreme selfish decadence that the nature of our country means that no matter what we do with the laws about abortion life will not be valued?

The Republican leadership is not pro-life. They are simply against abortion for reasons of political expediency. They are also for torture and military aggression. And they chose a literal executioner for president; a former governor who has more blood on his hands than any other modern American governor; Mr. Texas-sized, Capital Punishment-with-no-mercy-no-pardons hang em' high himself.

The Republicans have contributed to climate change by coddling oil companies and car companies and ducking the hard environmental and energy policy questions for thirty years. They have literally sold our country to the highest polluting bidders from the Saudis to the Chinese. Therefore the Republicans have literally risked the ability of our planet to sustain all human life born and unborn. So much for human life values.

Who will help us to become a nation that values life -- abortion rhetoric aside? Obama.

The contrast could not have been more clear than on August 16 in the interview between pastor Rick Warren of the Saddleback Church and Obama and McCain. Obama gave real and thoughtful answers, often trying to explore a moral question deeply. McCain offered nothing more than canned applause lines and anecdotes from his tired simplistic stump speech.

McCain fed pre-programed red meat to the Evangelical faithful who were packing the auditorium, but not much more. He parroted all the "right" lines about abortion, the same empty phrases Bush, parrots, Bush's father parroted and Reagan and Ford parroted.

"When does life begin?" asked Warren. "At conception!" shot back McCain.

The Evangelical crowd goes wild! See?! That's our guy!

And where do the tired canned pro-life "correct answers" get us? Nowhere.

I will be voting for the presidential candidate who seems most authentically exercised about our devastating problems and who is ready to not only address them but to provide the inspiring leadership that will move my fellow citizens and I to do something about our terminal situation. I'll be voting for the man that has also inspired the world more than any national leader in my lifetime.

There are worse things than America being liked and therefore safer. Would you rather have non-Americans waving our flag or burning it?

In the best of all worlds we would be living in a country in which no one had an abortion. We would be living in a country in which there was never capital punishment. We would be living in a country that would have addressed the legacy of our racist past and racist present so that we would not have a disproportionate number of black men and women locked in our prisons. We would be living in a country where people calling themselves Christians would not hate gay people. We would be living in a country that never went to war except as last resort for self defense. We would be living in a country where education and opportunity was every American's birthright. But we are not.

The question is: Who can best help us to the realization of the real American Dream?

The Republicans only offer consumerism as a debased sort of "freedom." This is the freedom of "me" and "I." This is the freedom of pigs rooting at a trough.

As a born-again Christ-centered believer Obama offers a spiritual vision of life founded on the Sermon On the Mount. It is the freedom of "we." It is the same view of freedom that my Marine son learned in boot camp: that the person standing next to you is more important than you are. That concept of freedom is more in keeping with valuing all human life. It will create a climate more friendly to mothers and children.

As I listen to Senator Obama speak, as I see the selfless altruistic energy he has generated in a whole new generation of young people, as I think about the ethical, caring culture he would like to foster with healthcare for all, a revamped and reenergized educational system that includes the arts, history, poetry and all those things that make life worthwhile, as I think about the wars my son's brothers-in-arms are still mired and dying in because of the hubris of the Republicans, as I think about the crying need to restore our standing in the world, as I think about the scandalous way in which the Republicans have manipulated people, including the most sincere Evangelicals, Orthodox and Roman Catholics, to get their votes, while not actually doing anything about the issues they care most about, yes, I am ready to for a change.

In Obama's America arguments for compassion for the unborn and all the other "least of these" will resonate regardless of Obama's stance on the legality of abortion. Roe is not the point. Our hearts are the point. The unborn like everyone else will do better in a country that puts people, the earth, and our future ahead of greed, oil company profits and jingoistic rule by fear.

I will be voting for Senator Obama and am fighting for his election because I am pro-life.


Frank Schaeffer is coauthor of HOW FREE PEOPLE MOVE MOUNTAINS-A Male Christian Conservative and a Female Jewish Liberal On A Quest For Common Purpose and Meaning. He is also author of CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back

Follow Frank Schaeffer on Twitter: www.twitter.com/frank_schaeffer

Dear Republican and Pro-Life Friends, Thanks for the spittle-flecked emails as well as for the polite queries. Yes, I am aware Obama is pro-choice. Yes, I'm still pro-life. I also believe that with Ob...
Dear Republican and Pro-Life Friends, Thanks for the spittle-flecked emails as well as for the polite queries. Yes, I am aware Obama is pro-choice. Yes, I'm still pro-life. I also believe that with Ob...
 
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thank you, frank, for a refreshing article. it is sometimes hard for us pro-choice progressives to sift through the pro-life rhetoric to find opinions like yours that may differ from ours, but are still reasonable and rational.

i'll also add that this administration's policies with regard to contraceptions and sex education have been a muddled, ineffective mess. if bush et al. really wanted to decrease the actual number of abortions performed, instead of simply using abortion as a political tool to manipulate evangelicals, they would focus on ensuring that medically accurate information about sex and pregnancy and STDs is presented in our schools and that access to contraceptives is free and unfettered for all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:43 PM on 08/18/2008
- cannante I'm a Fan of cannante 4 fans permalink
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OBAMA IS MORE PRO - LIFE THAN MCCAIN.....

i know many catholic religious (who have the most gravitas when it comes to pro-life issues) who believe that obama is the better candidate on life issues.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:12 PM on 08/18/2008
- mh01 I'm a Fan of mh01 26 fans permalink

I know, that 100% score from NARAL is a sure indicator of how prolife Obama is.

That and his "i don't want my daughters punished with a baby" comment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:57 PM on 08/18/2008

Brother, you forgot to mention that in the best of all worlds we would be living in a country that besides addressing the problem of racism, would also be addressing the problems caused by the genocide perpetrated on the natives of this continent by the Europeans that alit on its shores about four and a half centuries ago... Actually, in the best of all worlds, neither slavery or genocide would have occurred, period.

Other than that ittsy bitsy objection, I applaud your train of thought, and the courage it is taking to expose yourself as a clear(er) thinking human being than most repubs are in this day and age. Blessings, Hippy Nana.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:34 PM on 08/18/2008
- plafayette I'm a Fan of plafayette 8 fans permalink
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Frank, I am standing on my feet applauding! It can not be said more clearly to those who are willing and ready to see it. Truth....just plain staring you in the face! OBAMA 08

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:24 PM on 08/18/2008
- BassMent I'm a Fan of BassMent 43 fans permalink
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Wow. Thank you, Mr. Schaeffer.

I believe this is the most moral and level-headed article I've ever read about such hot-button issues. Your ability to separate reality from political posturing is extraordinary. I only pray that your insight might be shared with more people who have been duped year in and year out by the neo-conservative movement (one of the most anti-Christian political movements in human history). You'll find many here at this web site that agree with you fully. It would be great if you are afforded more opportunities to preach to the other choir.

Well done, and thank you once again.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:41 PM on 08/18/2008
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"At heart of the abortion reality is this: we are a consumerist society with a heart of stone when it comes to the poor, who account for four times the national average of people having abortions, mostly because of economic needs that Republicans don't lift a finger to address. And we still denigrate women and female sexuality".

I almost started blubbering when I read that. It's the most self-aware thing I have ever heard any Evangelical (or erstwhile Evangelical) admit. I don't know how much of Frank's beautifully reasoned argument will sink in with the Religious Right (he may be preaching the progressive choir), but God bless him.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:26 PM on 08/18/2008

This is THE best post I've read in a very long time! I had much of the same ideas running through my mind when watching the forum on Saturday night, albeit not so elequently phrased! (More like expletives shooting out of my mouth.) How can someone so "pro-life" be such a pro-war hawk? How can someone who only thinks of evil in terms of our enemies abroad and how to shoot them down have our best interests in mind? When I was watching the forum, I felt like he had these little index cards all memorized while he was waiting (and perhaps listening) backstage and he knew that he had to get those points out before he forgot them. That led to him just plunking parts of his stump speech througout the question-and-answer period. ("DRILL! DRILL! DRILL NOW!!!)

Thank you, Mr. Schaeffer, now let's get the word out!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:09 PM on 08/18/2008

I truly believe the essence of this article (if not the actual verbiage) should be used as part of Senator Obama's acceptance speech.

Thank you for articulating my exact thoughts while watching the Faith Based Forum - otherwise known as the Purpose Drive Lie!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:02 PM on 08/18/2008

"When does life begin?" asked Warren. "At conception!" shot back McCain.
The Evangelical crowd goes wild! See?! That's our guy! "

Until the "pro-life" crowd starts to pour their millions into providing the contraception needed to make sure that unwanted conceptions don't happen (or happen less), then they continue to prove that they care not a whit for the "unborn".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:00 PM on 08/18/2008

AGREED!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 08/18/2008
- demigod I'm a Fan of demigod 35 fans permalink

I hate to tell you but sperms are ALIVE, ova are ALIVE - otherwise, no union or conception could take place. Life does NOT begin at conception. It is absurd that the abortion debate centers on WHEN life begins - that is a self-serving fantasy. The real issue is IF a woman can be forced to sacrifice her life to deliver a child - her own child - she does not want. Or IF a woman can say NO and obtain a medical procedure based on having complete control of her own body. Cancer tumors are ALIVE, and they are HUMAN - but no one is demanding that cancer tumors be protected. Now one is a cute little human baby and the other is a malignant invading mass, no one wants to face the reality that the principal is the same. No one goes hysterical over the "innocence" of cancer cells. If I were a woman, and if I got pregnant with a child I did not want, I would have an abortion so fast and never look back. I would never agonize over it or think about it's birthday or any of that crap. Nothing is so cheap in nature as flesh - fish lay a zillion eggs, so three might survive. Trees produce a zillion acorns. It is insane to agonize over this.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:19 PM on 08/18/2008
- AMERIKA I'm a Fan of AMERIKA 15 fans permalink

Thank you!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:36 AM on 08/18/2008

I agree with Susan60 who said she's pro-choice but not pro-abortion. I think you're writing some of the best essays on politics, culture, and society, Frank. Whenever I see a post by you, I hit the link immediately. What do you think was the most important thing that really changed your mind about the movement you used to embrace? And why in the world are you not on tv? Your thoughts are expressed so beautifully, and your background gives you such amazing insight into both sides of the political spectrum. You're probably too bright to be on most of these shows, though. Countdown with Keith Olbermann might be a nice fit for you. Come on, HuffPost people - let's start a movement to get Frank
Schaeffer on tv. One talking head you can trust.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 AM on 08/18/2008

The reason why pro-lifers area against abortion is they think that it's murder. They aren't against a woman's right to choose. Certainly, we are against a woman's right to murder a full grown human, and if someone believes that humanity starts at conception they will follow that same line.

Please stop making this an anti-feminist movement. That just adds fog to the water.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:05 AM on 08/18/2008
- Triciann I'm a Fan of Triciann 3 fans permalink

If men could conceive and give birth it wouldn't be about women. But they can't. It is the issue. I do not believe that a few cells equate to a human-being. Some religions do believe that. You are trying to make these specific religious leaders supreme. Remind you of somewhere. Iran, Saudi Arabia?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 AM on 08/18/2008

I am not saying that the issue is murder for YOU. I am saying that it is the issue for THEM. Bringing up woman's rights does nothing to persuade Christians because that's not the issue for them. You're completely missing the target. You're getting angry in a bubble.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:10 PM on 08/18/2008
- PNOGUY I'm a Fan of PNOGUY 10 fans permalink

Just wondering...didn't those religious beliefs hold sway in America BEFORE Roe vs. Wade? Are you saying that the US was like Iran and Saudi Arabia before the 1970s? Or just now?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:29 PM on 08/19/2008

"Certainly, we are against a woman's right to murder a full grown human, and if someone believes that humanity starts at conception they will follow that same line."

Given this line of argument, it would logically follow that pro-life movement would be pouring every resourse possible into the cheapest, most effective way to reduce the "murder rate" - contraception. Right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:42 PM on 08/18/2008

Sure, I agree that's one way to do it, of course, and this is why Frank wrote the article he did - so that his people will see that it's more of an issue than just banning it and that there are plenty of other ways to stop abortions from happening.

But again, the issue for them is murder and they only see one track in this case. But, I'm not arguing that they are going about it the right way. I'm just saying that the commenter is wrong in saying that it is a woman's rights issue (again, for THEM).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:59 PM on 08/18/2008
- Vermontah I'm a Fan of Vermontah 20 fans permalink

"And as we have seen the Republicans haven't really changed anything in thirty years."

Of course they haven't. The last thing the Republicans want is to overturn Roe vs. Wade; it's greatly in their interest to keep abortions as high as possible so they can squeal about abortion.

If abortions were actually reduced in this country it would be great, but it would remove a major issue for the Fascists. So, once again, we must count on Democrats to resolve the issues that Republicans squeal about. (Witness Clinton's brilliant economic stewardship, reversing the Reagan subversion of the economy. The Fascists squealed and bleated about a balanced budget but it took a Democratic president to get it done.)

With President BO, sure enough, abortions will go down. Period.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:58 AM on 08/18/2008
- johnie2xs I'm a Fan of johnie2xs 62 fans permalink
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A most excellent posting. You have finally said what needed to be said, by someone of your ilk. I've stated these same points, on my radio show. The fact that I am a "Progressive bleeding heart liberal", however, makes anything I say contentious. I have a feeling, though, that much of what you've said, although correct, will fall upon deaf ears among the so called faithful. I do think you deserve great credit, given the position you are in, for coming out and speaking the truth. I wish you success in your effort.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:56 AM on 08/18/2008

Mr. Schaeffer, as usual, even though I disagree with most of what you say, I thoroughly enjoy reading your columns. Interestingly, I found myself agreeing with more than usual in this particular post.
You’re a hell of a lot smarter than I am when it comes to putting thoughts to paper so I’ll only talk to one point. I met your son a while back and from what I could tell, he’s an outstanding young Marine. I’d be honored to stand next to him. I just wish you hadn’t brought him into this discussion. Obama’s views are NOT the same as we learned in boot camp. Not by a long shot. Obama’s dreams are of a socialist America. In combat, my life depends on the Marine next to me. Obama’s dreams and hopes for the betterment of the “we” will come to the detriment of the whole. We’ve already seen that socialism doesn’t work.
I know that being the lesser of two evils still makes McCain evil, but it’s his brand of evil “we” will survive.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:50 AM on 08/18/2008
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There's a wide, wide chasm between socialism, on the one hand, and a socialized democracy, on the other. The first is theoretical only, and you're right to say that it can not work in practice. The second -- which is what an Obama presidency would no doubt strive for, to some unpredictable extent -- simply acknowledges that the system is NOT inherently fair, and that there are things we can do to provide opportunity to those born into unpromising circumstances. All men, after all, are NOT created equally. Some are created with hundred-million dollar trust funds. I don't think the rich should be stripped of their wealth, but if the goal is a just society, and if you believe in the principles of American equality and opportunity... well, it's hard to imagine that you'd be against the partial redistribution of wealth, via social programs and increased support for the impoverished.

Or do people still believe that the poor should "get a job," or "pull themselves up by their bootstraps"? The simplicity of this variety of response, to an issue deep at the heart of our nation's struggles and internal strife, is itself enormously Republican. The rich really ARE different. They're far less compassionate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:01 AM on 08/18/2008

To this I can only say, Life isn't fair. If someone is born into a multi-million dollar trust fund, good for them. I certainly wasn't. But I don't want the government to take from them to give to me. If the wealthy feel compelled to redistribute their own wealth to help those less fortunate, good on them. That is NOT the government's right or job.
I make more money now, in the military of all places, than my father ever made. So call them bootstraps or whatever, as long as the government keeps up with the handouts, they will lie dormant as the pool of the poor grows wider.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:26 AM on 08/18/2008
- MrTessier I'm a Fan of MrTessier 3 fans permalink

Are the universal healthcare ideas the ones that you refer to when you say socialism? I'm unclear as to what makes Obama a socialist. Both campaigns have ideas for univeral healthcare.

The only other thing I can think of is the idea of raising taxes on the wealthy, to supply for fewer taxes on the middle and lower class. I suppose that is a lean towards socialism, but I wouldn't say it makes one a socialist.

What exactly do we call the current system, taxing the middle and lower classes at a much more impactful rate then the wealthy? Wasn't the feudal system based on concentrating greater and greater sums of wealth in the hands of the few?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:08 AM on 08/18/2008
- Triciann I'm a Fan of Triciann 3 fans permalink

"Socialism" is working in Europe and many other places. We are not talking communism. Obama believes that we should help each other. How does this contradict what you learnt in boot camp? Although I will mention that boot camp is designed to "brake and make" because officers want men who will obey and not question. The individuals identity is taken and replaced by a group identity. It is necessary. Seems to me that people like you, and McCain, would be lost without war. You live for it. I know retired marines who see the world differently to you I"m glad to say.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 AM on 08/18/2008

You think I need and live for war? You've lost your mind. And you've watched too many movies about boot camp. Individual identity is not lost to group identity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 08/18/2008

What is plunking down $400 billion of tax payer dollars to bail out the purchase of Bear Stearns? Now what about risking more billions of tax payer dollars for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? To be kind, this is socialism of the rich, wealthy risk takers. If Fannie and Freddie go well, the investors make out. If not, the tax payers take it in the gut. Is this not socialism for the wealthy? Now let's have some universal health care - socialism for everyone? If we can do socialism for the wealthy, why not socialism for everyone? Socialism is everywhere in our country. When was the last time you built a freeway? Built a highway bridge? Get real!!! Socialism is necessary or there is no civilization.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:29 PM on 08/18/2008
- ejay579 I'm a Fan of ejay579 9 fans permalink
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Do you even have any idea about what socialism is or is not? Do you have any idea that some of our most ardent allies in the cold war were the "Christian Socialists" of Western Europe? Do you have any idea that the "Christian Socialists" were some of the most ardent opponents of Adolph Hitler when he was trying to gain control of Germany? One of the lessons of history is that when you defeat the bogeyman socialism, you wind up with fascism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 08/18/2008
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