Perspectives on Marriage: Score 1 For Gay America -- 0 To The Mormons

The recent confrontation between the Mormon Church and the gay community bodes ill for Mormonism. It seems that the Mormons have begun to believe their own propaganda when it comes to seeing themselves as "just another" evangelical group. They aren't.

The evangelicals may be plenty crazy, as they have manifested themselves to be through the late great Religious Right (that is now crashing in flames following the Obama victory), but the Mormons are exponentially crazier when it comes to marriage, and gender roles.

I was raised in a religious fundamentalist home by evangelical leader parents. I left that upbringing, but am still a believer who, for the last 20 years, has gone to a Greek Orthodox church. But let's face it: all religion is weird, because humans are illogical -- believers and secular people alike. Still, to paraphrase the famous line from Animal Farm; some religions are weirder than others, especially when it comes to beliefs about marriage, sex and gender. One of the strangest is the Mormons.

New religions, where their founders are not shrouded by the merciful mists of time -- for instance L. Ron Hubbard of the Scientologists or Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons -- seem stranger than the founders of older religions. Maybe that's unfair, but there it is. That is because the newcomers lived recently enough so that truth claims and character are easier to check out.

Here is just two of many quaint bits of Mormon "teaching" ( this first on race is no longer the official position of the church, but still...)

"And if any man mingles his seed with the seed of Cane [i.e black people] the only way he could get rid of it or have salvation would be to come forward & have his head cut off & spill his blood upon the ground. It would also take the life of his Children."

(Wilford Woodruff's Journal, 1852, Brigham Young's address before the legislative assembly of the Territory of Utah upon slavery)

"Nearly all the great discoveries of man in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet... I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to be a greater age than we do, that they lived generally to near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants of the sea -- to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes."

(Oliver B. Huntington, Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, p. 263-264)

So, okay, enough already of the "seed of Cain," moon men, on to marriage, California's Proposition 8 and the Mormons...

Why pick on gay people? Here's my theory.

The Mormons have assiduously pursued a policy of trying to be accepted as just one more of the thousands of Protestant splinter groups that, taken together, are often generically called "Christians" as a catchall for the born-again amongst us. That is why the Mormons jumped into this debate: make friends with the evangelical Religious Right and the more right wing Roman Catholics by joining the neighborhood Church Lady gang to beat up the gay guy.

The policy of the normalization of what is -- by traditional Christian standards anyway -- a bizarre new religion, built around a bizarre eccentric founder (and/or con man depending on your point of view) sometimes reaps successful dividends. For instance the recent gang-up-on-the-gay-guy tactic seemed to be working when a recent full-page NY Times advertisement was signed by leading evangelicals (such as Chuck Colson), declaring solidarity with the Mormon Church as it is "attacked" by gay activists protesting Prop. 8.

Look, as I said, I'm religious and therefore I balk at the idea of gay marriage. I am all for gay rights though, we're talking semantics here. But I could be wrong and I freely admit that A) my unease with calling a civil union a marriage comes from my evangelical upbringing and B) as someone who has been a real jerk to my wife at times, I'm in no position to tell anyone what to do about marriage, except to be kind and ask for forgiveness when you screw up.

And regardless of my "views" I'm not in anyone else's face telling them that I'm better than they are in the marriage/morals/sex department. (By the way, evangelical divorce rates are as high as the non-evangelical secular average.) But people who do get in other people's faces by fighting for laws to use against other people's sexual orientation open themselves to the same harsh scrutiny they are handing out.

My point here is not to stick an especially critical finger in the Mormon's faces, let alone say that Mormons are crazy people. (In my church we believe we eat the body and blood of Jesus!) I am just saying hypocrisy is bad. And for the Mormons to grandstand on marriage is just nuts, given their history and beliefs.

Most people who take a close look at Mormonism find it's kind of hard to believe that God would reveal himself in an oddly coincidental serendipity so conveniently in keeping with the burgeoning American exceptionalism of the 19th-century and the crazily fevered so-called "burnt-over" territories of religious fanaticism found in upstate New York back then.

Best I can tell, here was how the thinking went that got the Mormon invention started: We're a chosen nation, right? So Jesus must have come here! We're the center of the universe, right? So how come America isn't in the Bible? Never mind, we'll invent our own "new improved" bible! Best of all that new revelation will allow us to have all the women we want, even the really, really young girls.

Okay, so now these days "mainstream" Mormons don't marry fourteen-year-olds by the dozen, but that is their religious heritage and offshoot unofficial Mormon groups are still doing just that, molesting children and calling it marriage.

Hmmm... And these are the people who are going to tell American gay men and women how to live "normal" lives?

What is the sexual/marriage/gender teaching of the Mormons who are raising money to stop two men or women from marrying. Here's a taste:

A Mormon belief is that men resurrect their wives. The Mormon man becomes a god on some uninhabited planet. As the god of his own world he will resurrect those wives who were obedient to him. They then become the goddesses of his planet.

Heaven for Mormon women is nonstop pregnancy. They produce the "spirit babies" who populate the world when human babies are born. Also... those Mormon women not "sealed to their husbands" for all time and eternity in the temple marriage will be the servants of those goddess wives...

How did the Mormon view of marriage start? Mormon member and historian Todd Compton writes:

"In the group of Smith's well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith's own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group aged fifty-one to sixty.

The teenage representation is the largest, though the twenty-year and thirty-year groups are comparable, which contradicts the Mormon folk-wisdom that sees the beginnings of polygamy was an attempt to care for older, unattached women. These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith's polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it."

With their support for Proposition 8 the Mormons have more or less done what someone might do who -- in an incredibly dumb moment -- decides to call up the local IRS office and start asking the kind of questions that inevitably leads to getting audited.

There is an old phrase that the Mormon leaders who launched their anti-gay crusade might have paid attention to: "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

Frank Schaeffer is the author of CRAZY FOR GOD-How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back. Now in paperback.

Comments

[JimReed]

"let's face it: all religion is weird"

I think that can be explained. If something is true, you believe it because it is true. If something is not true, then the only way you can believe it is through religion.

[NormW]

I am a Mormon. I would sure hate to belong to the church described by Mr. Scaeffer.

[LEAVEmeALONE]

But who cares about your faith besides the other 599,000 mormons?

[Smith808]

Sorry, can't get this to hyperlink. An internal memo surfaced recently exposing gay marriage as an official LDS agenda:
http://www.365gay.com/news/mormons-began-plotting-against-gay-marriage-for-decade-memo-shows/

An excerpt from the article reads: "Dated March 4, 1997, the memo mentions a meeting with Gordon B. Hinckley, who was then President of the Church, and quotes Hinckley as saying the Mormons need to "move ahead" with the church"s opposition to same-sex marriage."

(VIDEO) ABC4News did a segment on it:
http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2008/11/12/video-mormon-memo-re-anti-gay-marriage-political-strategy/

*********************
This site documents the Mormon Church's "official" role in campaigning for Prop 22:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/doma1.shtml

If you scroll down 1/3 of the page, you'll come upon a letter entitled "Dear Brethren." It reveals Church-driven/organized efforts to solicit campaign funding from its members.

[emosche]

And the point is? This is already public knowledge and old news.

[emosche]

I'm LDS and don't consider myself a victim of Prop 8 blowback. But I -- and fellow members -- continue to be victims of bogus information about doctrine perpetuated by the likes of Frank. All of the so-called beliefs he cites are nothing more than fanciful ideas or opinions expressed by church leaders (yes, some of them pretty high up). And in terms of our actual beliefs, why are they any more "loony" than those we share with mainstream Christians? No issues with Moses seeing God in a burning bush? How about an angel telling Mary she was pregnant? And, oh yeah, what about the carpenter's son who rose from the dead?
No need to worry about Mormons. We'll be just fine. We've endured much worse. And not sure why we should feel guilty about simply participating in a political process to decide what definition of marriage best serves society (based on solid social science data). We did in fact play a key role in helping Yes on 8 succeed through our grass-roots tactic. Mormons are legendary for that -- we use the same tactic to serve our communities every day, and to deliver $1 billion in humanitarian aid since 1985. The No on 8 folks had no grass roots activities, and that's what made the difference. So don't blame us -- the ire should be directed toward them for running a lousy campaign.

[coolmaiden]

Agreed-No on 8 is the true culprit in Prop 8 passing. However, the LDS church is not blameless, as they voluntarily donated a large sum of money, and now they are complaining they are innocent victims. They should not be upset if Americans want to boycott what they think is a regretful decision. I and many others I know will never have anything to do with LDS ever again. Try and stop us. LDS is not the only organization that gets to choose where they donate their money.

[emosche]

"Blame" implies we've done something wrong, and we don't believe we did, considering 52% of Californians agreed with us. Plus, bear in mind, the church didn't donate the money -- its members did. So I'm not sure how you'd boycott the church, unless you were a member and stopped paying tithes. As far as boycotting Utah (e.g., Park City and the Sundance Film Festival), you'd be hurting mostly non-LDS folks, since they are the majority there. The better solution would be to push for a dialogue with church leaders. Prop 8 basically came down the word "marriage", so there's certainly a middle ground somewhere. My preference would be to go the other direction -- and call the legal contracts between BOTH straight and gay couples civil unions. Marriage could remain a ritual peformed in private institutions. This is the way it is in many parts of Europe and Latin America.

[LEAVEmeALONE]

Somehow I pressed your fan link "I'm a Fan of emosche" and I don't know how to delete it. Anyway .......
If you are LDS, than just forbid your fellow Mormon of getting married in your Mormon church. But Leave me Alone and all others like me. I'm not against religion but I am not religious, had a civil ceremony, I can't care less of your religious orientation, just like you and your church, should care less about my sexual orientation. Obviously you go to church to pray to your God and not to find out who's married to whom, right?

[emosche]

Well, there's a fear that a government sanction of same-sex marriage would adversely impact churches, even if this means frivolous lawsuits to compel us to offer services, such as adoption, to same-sex couples. Chances are, the lawsuits would fail, but it costs money to defend them. And if you think that fear isn't valid because such lawsuits would be irrational, look at the non-sensical talk of boycotting the entire state of Utah because the church is located there.

[VikingKing]

And now, how about three scholarly articles calmly reasoned and thorough?
http://allanerickson.wordpress.com/?s=bible+homosexuality

[coolmaiden]

VikingKing-Allen Erickson, I presume?
Read the articles. At least as much as I could stomach. Very biased. When you include a link to The Right Side (and no liberal sites) on your blog, you are not an independent website. Try again.

[LEAVEmeALONE]

LEAVE me ALONE ...... I'm NOT Religious ........... Who are you to dictate who should I get married to?
This goes for the Mormons and all religions there, pro or against PROP 8. If Gays have the same-sex Union rights than why not having the "Married" title? On 08-08-08, I am maried my same sex husband
in California. We had a CIVIL Ceremony ... What does this have to do with your Church? What? Did your God change anything in your life? What?

[fedupinfla]

Congratulations on your wedding...I wish you a long & happy marriage with your husband!!!

[LEAVEmeALONE]

Thank you Fedupinfla. I'll post a picture to share it with you and everyone.

[Zakuska]

I also find it funny that people keep bringing up Mormon Polygomy in this discussion. If you remember the Governments of several states and then the US Fedral governement stripped Mormons of their civil marriage rights. Why would you draw attention to a losing battle to try and garner support for your cause is beyond me!?

[LEAVEmeALONE]

Exactly!

[Piatt]

Ya gotta love the audacity of Mormon victimhood. Reminds me of Cardinal O'Connor's attacks on gays during the height of the AIDS epidemic in NYC. When his comments were criticized, he hid behind the skirts of the church and whined about gays "attacking the holy mother church." It was kind of like having to listen to George Wallace play victim when he was called a racist.

If the religious zealots can't stand the heat of a political fight into which they've injected themselves and tens of millions of dollars, they should stay out of the kitchen. There's a fine old American political weapon called the "boycott" and there are plenty of companies in which Mormons have major financial interests, e.g., Marriott and Jet Blue. We in the LGBT community should start hitting 'em where it hurts.

[hoopesaz]

Why does the LGBT community think that behaving with complete disregard and disrespect for a group will somehow earn them respect and regard? It is this VERY SAME PHILOSOPHY that leads a country to torture prisoners of war. The idea that somehow I can expect someone to do exactly what I want when I treat them with utter disregard.

It's stunning to see so many defend behavior that just can't be justified. "He did it first" is not justification with any integrity whatsoever.

[Piatt]

We've learned that it doesn't work to roll over and play dead when someone stomps on us.

[normathumb]

The gall is on the part of groups claiming a better knowledge of god's intent, assuming it is their privilege to inflict their self styled superior understanding on others and expecting their victims to accept it without comment. Why not declare marriage off limits to serial divorcees like Newt Gingrich or Rudy Giuliani? Why not declare marriage off limits to people with histories of sex abuse or domestic violence? If marriage is so sacred and holy to straight people, then why do they treat it like used car salesmen? To the extent that marriage is at risk, it surely isn't from gays. Until they hopped on this bandwagon, Mormons were considered by self styled 'mainstream Christians' to be, at best, heretical, abusing scripture to justify a perverse lifestyle.

[Hazumu]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/nyregion/14ecuadorean.html?_r=1&hp

Jose O. Sucuzhanay. Satender Singh. Lawrence King. Kevin Pravia. Tyra Hunter. Rita Hester. Moses "Teish" Cannon. Donald Young. Sean Kennedy....

The murders are usually ultra-violent -- cops speak of 'overkill', where the murderer continues violence on the dead body, emptying the magazine, repeatedly stabbing, bludgeoning the face until there is unrecognizable pulp, stamping out the very identity of the person murdered.

This violence against gays/lesbians/transgenders has been tacitly condoned for years. "Complete disregard and disrespect"? That moral ledger is so out of balance that the in-comparison 'disregard and disrespect' exhibited post Prop 8 does not BEGIN to touch the interest on that moral debt, let alone pay down the interest.

[tannerfolks]

Well said.

[LEAVEmeALONE]

Because the LGBT community did not behaved with any disregard and disrespect to a group and the LGBT does not have to earn respect and regard ----- This is being stripped from the LGBT, not a behavioral problem. Equal rights to marry, granted to them by the California Supreme Court, it"s the LAW.
It is not a privileged and in no way is the LGBT trying to earn it from the Mormons or any other religious community who, by raising church donations, engaged in a behavioral with complete disregard and disrespect for a group. This group happens to be a group of judges that have the sole right to interpret the Constitution of this State. They represent the Supreme Law of California. Therefore, Prop 8 is anti constitutional.
How dare you to blame the LGBT community for fighting against their rights that they once had? Capisce now?

[LEAVEmeALONE]

Oooops!!!!!! I was going to fly Jet Blue to Las Vegas this New Years. Thanks Piatt, I've just cancelled JB and booked Soutwest, for a fraction of the price and without the embarassment of flying Mormon airways.

[Zakuska]

if you are going to quote somebody in an article...

"And if any man mingles his seed with the seed of Cane [i.e black people] the only way he could get rid of it or have salvation would be to come forward & have his head cut off & spill his blood upon the ground. It would also take the life of his Children."

At least get the quote right and don't try to paraphrase. :rolleyes:

:Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, p. 110)[1]

In Context President Young is speaking of those white slave owners who in Jeffersoneque living styles were sexually abusing their female slaves.

The whole discourse can be read only here...
http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_10/refJDvol10-24.html

[hoopesaz]

You misunderstand the intent of the author and his supporters. To them, truth is defined as "what I believe" whereas a lie is "what you believe".

LGBT community wants a respectful honest debate. And they are willing to sink to any level to coerce others into that debate. How can you not wilt as such an honorable position as this?

While I am not gay, I have so much respect and admiration for so many friends who are. And I have seen some of those friends recently lash out towards mormons in a way that I never thought was possible...in a way that I know is completely out of character with who they really are.

Regardless of how slighted the LGBT community feels, they have lost whatever higher ground they once had. Every mormon is no longer a person, s/he is simply bigot, an idiot, an enemy to be put down and looked down upon. I thought that was exactly the behavior the LGBT community has been fighting against.

[smed]

Very well said hoopesaz. Frank S - the author of this diatribe is grasping for straws here on obscure journals or the typical paraphrasing and taking things out of context that is so common amongst haters of Mormons.

[FlamingLibrul]

We are seeing the ultimate heights of insane hypocrisy with the Mormons trying to play victim here. They take away the rights of others and then paint that group as extremist when they protest. I fail to see how, for example, a woman having a cross slapped out of her hand is comparable to the violence perpetrated against Gays and Lesbians every day of the week, all across the globe.

The religious biggotts have thrown down the gauntlet regarding the battle over Separation of Church and State. I believe the eyes of many Americans have been opened this time- to the true intentions of these groups. They know they can't force us back into the closet where they believe we belong, so they've orchestrated a massive propoganda effort to deny us of basic civil liberties, through a campaign of fear and smear. Marriage is just a convenient hot-button platform that guarantees a fundraising bonanza. The mask has slipped, and it ain't a pretty sight underneath.

[frjohnwhiteford]

OK... the mormons work within the political process, and persuade the majority of their fellow citizens that a law which simply restates the definition of marriage that has been excepted by all of human history, and the gays do not like it, and so disrupt their Church services, vandalize their property, get them fired from their jobs... and yet it is the mormons who need to learn a leason on tolerance? Come on Frank. If you want to see the face of intolerance, take a look at this:

http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2008/11/homosexual-brownshirts-show-what.html

[LewDan]

The Morman Church did not "work within the political process, and persuade the majority of their fellow citizens." The Morman Church perpetrated a massive fraud, resulting in passage of an unconstitutional, as in ILLEGAL, law.

A "civil union" is a marriage recognized by the State for purposes of the law. There is no such thing as a "marriage" valid under State law that is not a "civil union." That's what "civil union" means.

Its the Mormons who are attempting to redefine "marriage." Until now, no State ever attempted to determine who could marry. The Mormon Church would change that. Until now, the States' role in marriage, was limited to enforcing parties' rights under the marriage contract. The Mormon Church would change that. Until now the principle of the separation of Church and State meant the State took no position on the religious acceptability of any marriage. The Mormon Church would change that.

The Mormon Church lies about the definition of "marriage," "civil unions," and the effect of Prop 8. Prop 8 directs the State of California not recognize non-heterosexual marriages and treat them as invalid. It does not prevent gay marriage. There must first BE a marriage for the State to disavow it.

Marriage is an agreement between people. It requires no State authorization. The Mormon Church KNOWS this. THEY are the ones trying to redefine "marriage" to mean "civil-unions" and to then restrict civil-unions, and therefore marriage, to heterosexuals.

[frjohnwhiteford]

Nonsense... there was no fraud... only truths you did not like to hear. You had every opportunity to answer them, and lot's of sympathetic coverage in the Media.

Even Obama is opposed to gay marriage. Why is he not a bigot?

[hoopesaz]

The Mormon church is not against equal rights for gays under the law. They don't believe gays should be prohibited from visiting their partner in the hospital or any such lunacy. They have published a written statement in this regard. They have simply taken the position that the term "marriage" should not be redefined and that some other type of legal union should embody same sex relationships to provide protections for these rights.

So, all of this hate towards Mormons is really about the definition of a single word and has nothing to do about equal rights. It's clear that folks in support of LGBT expect Mormons to live up to a standard of tolerance that they are completely unwilling to live up to themselves.

[sfsilver]

No LGBT person has ever worked to deny Mormons the ability to freely believe or practice anything. Mormons have worked and organized around taking away the right of LGBT people to their constitutionally granted, court vetted right to Equal access. The idea that we can have separate but nominally equal states of being in our system in order to make a powerful majority comfortable was disavowed by the Supreme Court decades ago and seems to be only supported when LGBT people are involved. It is discrimination, it is bigotry.

If you are against LGBT people being able to get married, then you are discriminating against them. This is not brain surgery, but a simple easy thing to understand. Being of faith, or having a "belief" that contradicts this principle does not excuse you from the fact that it is discrimination, or absolve you of your bigotry.

[LEAVEmeALONE]

Very well said sfsilver.

[LewDan]

The position of the Mormon church you espouse is a lie. A "civil union" is a marriage recognized by the State for purposes of the law. There is no such thing as a "marriage" valid under State law that is not a "civil union." That's what "civil union" means.

Its the Mormons who are attempting to redefine "marriage." Until now, no State ever attempted to determine who could marry. The Mormon Church would change that. Until now, the States' role in marriage, was limited to enforcing parties' rights under the marriage contract. The Mormon Church would change that. Until now the principle of the separation of Church and State meant the State took no position on the religious acceptability of any marriage. The Mormon Church would change that.

The Mormon Church lies about the definition of "marriage," "civil unions," and the effect of Prop 8. Prop 8 directs the State of California not recognize non-heterosexual marriages and treat them as invalid. It does not prevent gay marriage. There must first BE a marriage for the State to disavow it.

Marriage is an agreement between people. It requires no State authorization. The Mormon Church KNOWS this. THEY are the ones trying to redefine "marriage" to mean "civil-unions" and to then restrict civil-unions, and therefore marriage, to heterosexuals.

[hoopesaz]

I know you are, but what am I? Is that what this has come down to? This is utterly remarkable to me. You claim to be the victim of bigotry, misunderstanding, and hate, but you somehow can justify attacking back with bigotry, misunderstanding, and hate.

People discount homosexual behavior by thinking them wierd, peculiar, wrong, and strange. You have just discounted mormon's beliefs of marriage using the exact argument...they are just stupid and wierd anyway, right?

The Mormon Church was not responsible for the defeat of Prop 8. The LGBT community is attacking them because they are an easy target, a significant minority, and not socially acceptable to many different groups including the evangelical right. Almost reminds you of another minority group called LGBT.

[LewDan]

There is a HUGE difference between discrimination based upon facts and reality versus discrimination based upon opinion or "beliefs." Prejudice and discrimination are the inescapable result of experience and education. There's nothing wrong with that. But all experiences and education are not equal.

You for example make a patently false argument. The Mormon Church is being criticized because THEY made the decision to FORCE their beliefs on others using the full weight of the law.

Actions have consequences. Mormons claiming victimization because their intended victims are fighting back against their attackers, just goes to illustrate how morally bankrupt the position of the Mormon Church really is. You draw an entirely false equivalence. The MORMONS aren't BEING attacked, the Mormons ARE THE ATTACKERS.

[ElIngeniero]

LGBT persons are after the Mormon Church because it provided money and manpower to the organizations trying to defeat Prop 8.

How much money and manpower? Millions of dollars and many hundreds of volunteers.

Was this a spontaneous thing by individual Mormons to donate that money and work? No, it was church policy.

I say, let 'em suffer..

[Piatt]

You've precisely identified the potential for insanity that arises from injecting religion into politics. In the Federalist Papers, James Madison said that he thought Christianity would have a civilizing influence on the political process. Wouldn't he be surprised at the frequency with which it's been employed as a baseball bat rather than a means of instilling compassion into public decision making?

If the zealots followed the bible literally, they'd feel free to stone their wives, eschew shell fish, and shun red dresses. I don't care if they want to handle snakes, speak in tongues, or believe that the moon is made of camembert so long as they don't try to make their beliefs a matter of public policy.

What really befuddles me is how they think they are "protecting marriage" by denying marriage to gays. If they really want to "protect marriage," their energies would be better focused on reducing the straight divorce rate which is now around 50%.

Finally, if you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you don't like gays marrying, don't marry one. Seems simple enough to me.

[StevenKeirstead]

I thought the moon was made of Wensleydale!

[SillyGit]

I thought it was Stilton.

[BlackYowe]

"Anger is the enemy of non-violence and pride is a monster that swallows it up."
-Mohandas Gandhi