Doctor Faust in 2008
Anyone who has spent any time around politics knows that there are various paths to power. Most of these paths lie between the high road and the low road. The lowest road is the one that leads to power through destruction of one's opponent. That road is also the path to the garden of cynicism. But if the goal is power, what does a little cynicism matter. The Devil may help you get power. But he'll collect your soul in return.
Over recent weeks, and particularly in recent days, rumors circulate questioning Senator Barack Obama's commitment to a free and democratic Israel. Most recently, the rumor is that Senator Obama's strongest supporters in the Jewish community were defecting to his opponent because he had endorsed former President Carter's decision to meet with representatives of Hamas, generally recognized as a Palestinian group organizing terrorist attacks on Israel. The fact is that Senator Obama immediately and without being challenged to do so stated his disagreement with such meetings. Meeting with heads of state or heads of government is one thing; meeting with groups advocating terror is another.
One does not enter the hornets-nest of the Middle Eastern debate without armor. In my case that armor includes consistent and unwavering support for the U.S.-Israeli partnership and it includes participation in tank maneuvers on the Golan Heights, flights in the back seat of Israeli high performance aircraft, and night naval patrols off the Israeli coast. I have been honored to be the guest of former Israeli prime ministers and have carried out serious discussions regarding mutual security concerns.
Having established that, I can now say that I find it outrageous and the height of political cynicism for any other candidate or campaign, Democratic or Republican, to question Senator Obama's commitment to continuation of the U.S.-Israeli partnership and particularly to do so in a sinister, duplicitous, and scurrilous manner by spreading false rumors. When he campaigns against the politics of the past, and attracts hundreds of thousands of young people and independents as a result, that is the kind of politics he means.
I personally know the leaders of the Jewish American community to be intelligent enough, thoughtful enough, and most of all fair enough to categorically reject the path of cynicism and those cowardly enough to promote it by whisper and innuendo. Perhaps above all others, they know what it is like to be the victims of hateful rumors. In the final analysis, the issue isn't Israel. The issue is honesty, justice, and fairness in American politics.
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Frankly, I am glad that Mr. Carter is visiting with Hamas and finding out from their point of view what
is going on and not just taking the word of someone. I always thought someone had to be behind
it and keep it going and I bet if we followed the money we would find out! After all, Arafat died with
millions stashed away in Paris somewhere. Where did he get this money from? I am sure, all
those clashes are being sponsored by someone, who in the end make money by selling arms and
who knows what. People are people and want a roof over their head and for their family to be well.
No one can tell me that is not their goal.
dgscol this election process has been going on forever it seems and if you have not even figured out that BHO named after his father then I fear that you have not read anything. Getting all your news from TV? I tell my 11 y.o. to do his own research and analysis but then he is a child what is your deal?
I also just read somewhere in one of these blogs that BHO had two black parents; goodness another fact that is to debunk. We here all online; you have power at your fingertips. You no longer have to rely glow if the idiot box for knowledge.
Who was that girl from the boat? Donna something. Whatever happened to her?
Childfilmwannabe a legend...you've GOT to get a life..
Sen. Hart..I certainly hope you discard the iodiotic nonsequiturs from this site and your thoughtful post.
Yes..the clinton/mccain machine (I find it difficult to separate the two)...jump on shit...hoping to make wine; instead..just getting stinky..
I don't care of Carter meets with Hamas...he is NOT president..and my gawd..someone has to...remember..CARTER kept Begin AND Sadat at Camp David UNTIL they signed a peace accord!..
give him a little credit..and recently ...I don't think it was Olmert, but some high ranking Israeli officicial ALSO said...they were creating a society like S. Africa's past aparteid in the Palestinian territory..so ..Jimmy did NOT say it first..
Obama is so smart and good..that mchillary just has to create nothing from...well..nothing...lies, fabrications..anything to win..at any cost.. yes..the fireman who starts the fire...so s/he can save us..
I suggest we just start using the name McHillary...simplifies it...n'est pas?
Yes, it was prime minister Olmert who said that if israel did NOT do something to end the settlements and the occupation, that Israel would end up like South Africa. Despite the BS you hear here, the Israelis talk about this stuff ALL the time, and in a VERY different way than the press here, who are often cowed into silence by radical hawks with an agenda that is bad for both the US AND Israel.
Most Israelis are aware of how reprehensible the settlements and the occupation are, and talk about it frequently. They made a small step in the right direction in gaza by removing 8000 settlers. They now need to go the rest of the way and remove the 400,000 plus other settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
AFL
That was a red herring and a cheap shot. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Gary, are you responding to a "rumor" or are you spreading one? Please cite the information you have regarding your allegations, and what your sources are.
Also, whom are you referring to as "the devil". Surely you know, as an educated person, that Jews have historically been accused of being in league with Satan. While you are not anti-semitic, it is unseemly of you to use the exact same lexicon as those who are -- somewhat akin to Geoff Davis calling Barack Obama a "boy".
Finally, what do believe the outcome might be of engaging Hamas? If you know anything about the Middle East, you must be aware that there have been numerous contacts and communications between Israel and Hamas already, just as there were in earlier times between the PLO and Israel. I'd be interested in learning what you think Jimmy Carter t will achieve, considering he lacksany credibility with Israel.
Okay, jeffepops, I know you think you just sounded all tough and such with the "show me your sources" b.s. -- but there are links above to the articles that cite the information Hart is speaking about.
Why don't you let your mouse do the clicking.
Here is a link to a statement from the rabbi of Illinois's oldest Jewish congregation who has known Barack Obama for years:
http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c55_a5420/Editorial__Opinion/Opinion.html
Israel nowadays is like the Vatican of the Middle Ages. If you were a King or an Emperor or a Ruler somewhere in Europe in the Middle Ages you could do anything you more or less pleased as long as you pledged allegiance ro the Vatican.
Nobody is doudting a free and democratic Israel. Except a very large number of Israelis, including the former Prime Minister Barak, who doudt that Israel can be a democracy if it continues the 40-year occupation of the Palestinians.
It's high time to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. With negotiations or arm-twisting or both the US has to play the much overdue leader role in solving the issue. .
That's not completely accurate. I've said in other comments I'm glad Carter is talking to Hamas, but Hamas certainly does reject Israel's right to exist. In fact many parties in the region do. So do some people commenting on this thread. That doesn't mean Carter shouldn't talk to Hamas (as I'm sure Israel already does) or that we shouldn't pursue every avenue to bring peace to that part of the world. But let's not misstate reality
Why does Israel have a "Right to Exist" in Palestine at the expense of the Palestine People? Do not the People of Palestine have a "Right to exist"? Guess not.
What is the basis of "Israel's" Right?? A so called "Promise" from God as Recorded by a member of the Religion who is to benefit from "The Word"?
It is sad that man's inhumanity to man is increasing as time goes by.
But, if you were attacked in your home tonight; thrown out of it by someone claiming that "God" promised them your house, just how great would you feel??
The bottom line is that ALL affected parties need be a part of the discussion or there will be no solution.
Fair can only be Fair if it is achieved without Fear.
Israel is in no sort of danger that ending their violently enforced colonial settlement movement in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would not solve relatively quickly. NO ONE in this country questions Israels right to exist. ALMOST EVERY NATION ON EARTH, however, condemns Israels settler movement and quite correctly makes the observation that Israel brings much of the terror that it currently experiences down upon itself, and the US as well, by engaging in this OUTRAGEOUS and illegal behavior.
The settlements play absolutely NO role in Israels security, rather they endanger it, and bring Infamy down upon Israel and the US (for our financial and military support of the settlements).
Mr. Hart, please have the guts to make a clear delineation between Israels right to exist and it's utter lack of ANY right to expand settlements into other peoples land while conspiring to remove it's rightful occupants and deprive them of the rights that are common to all men.
The Israelis have stripped Palestinians in the occupied territories of their almost ALL HUMAN RIGHTS for almost half a century, and when they stop, it seems logical the violence against them will stop as well. As you know, at NO time since they occupied the Palestinians remaining lands have they stopped settling it. NEVER. not during ANY negotiation, or regardless of whether there was reciprocal violence from the Palestinians or not.
Please have the guts to speak out against the settlements, as SO MANY Israelis and Jewish Americans already have.
True, but just as there are hard-liners in Israel, who see the land as their god-given right, so too are there extremely conservative Palestinians, Iranians, Saudis and Syrians (I apologize to any I left out) who will never end their struggle against the greed-horned Jews. Peace is a multi-generational process, and to think that centuries of antipathy will vanish with a handshake is almost as naive as assuming that electing Barack Obama will, in and of itself, bring about world peace.
P.S.
I do not mean to imply that you are naive; the line between my response to your comment and my message to other readers is very blurry to me.
Vote Obama
The State of Israel itself is the "Western non-Moslem colonial settlement" that Hamas seeks to destroy.
First, Your comments regarding Jewish people are really offensive, and I see a VERY clear line between my point of view, and your bigoted reference to ALL Jewish People. I really think it is also OFFENSIVE to associate your point of view with Obamas. He does not, and would NEVER support that sort of thinking or rhetoric.
I see a VERY clear solution, in that the settlers and the occupation are a situation that would breed violent resistance and support of violence anywhere. Put an end to it, and those who would like to use violence would be overwhelmed by those who just want to the normal, good life that that ALL People naturally strive for. It would not happen the next day, but it would happen relatively quickly, whereas it will NEVER happen if the current position persists.
Senator,
I admire you for coming out strongly and defending Senator Obama against false charges. However, I am deeply troubled that in doing so, you have indirectly questioned President Carter's commitment to a free and democratic Israel.
No, if the objective is peace, there should be no restrictions on who we should be talking to, whether it's a head of government, an opposition leader in a country, a religious leader, or anyone else who might be helpful in bringing about peace.
Declaring individual an groups as "terrorists", then refusing to talk to them, is no different than declaring countries as "evil" and refusing to talk to them. And that is the NeoCon approach that has brought us nothing but disaster.
President Carter is a true man of peace and a great friend of Israel. I have his book "Palistine Peace Not Apartheid" right here on my bookshelf. Anyone who has read it should know that he is truly committed to peace and that no living American leader has a better grasp of the issues involved in the Israel-Palestinian conflict.
I wouldn't mind the United States commitment to a free and democratic Israel if the Israeli's were committed to a free and democratic United States.
What is the ADL (Anti Defamation League of B'nai B'rith) (sp?) doing getting involved in an Arizona dispute regarding police enforcing immigration laws?
What is it you think the ADL has to do with Israel?
The Anti Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (sp?) was formed in order to prevent any bad publicity associated with the Israeli (although they were called Jews back then) mobsters being arrested, tried etc. from becoming public and/or sticking to them.
That's why you know all about the Italian mobsters/mafia/organized crime/syndicate and hardly anything about the happy little accountant (Meyer Lansky) and his bunch. Rumor is that the ADL is a Mossad propoganda arm.
That question should be addressed to Abraham Foxman who apparently believes it has a lot to do with Israel.
As one of the YOUNG PEOPLE who kicked Johnson Out...boy have I missed him these days. What a mistake!
As for those ENTHRALLED by their kids support of Obama YOU NEED TO KNOW That 50% of ALL YOUNG PEOPLE get their "new" from MSNBC and CNN online!. These Republican controlled Media (beholdent to them for Media consolidation) are central headquarters for the ERONEOUS TRASHING of Hillary and ***TEMPORARY BOOSTING *** of Obama. The Swiftboating of Obama will make that of Kerry (and Gore & Dean) look like KINDERGARDEN.
And in an America where 60% of High School graduates believe we fought W/the Germans against the Soviets in WWII.....i'd like to remind fellow baby boomers who are FREE ASSOCIATING as their kids screem when Obama blows his nose:
In those days we young people (Before the Reagan cuts) knew where every country in the world was!
Having seen 27 Obama stump speeches and every debate. I can tell you Obama aint what he claims. And while the 100K men are having SERATONIN attacks...WAKE UP THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOUR getting high. It's about EXECUTION OF POLICY and we CANNOT AFFORD 2 YEARS WHILE ONBAMA LEARNS THE ROPES.
Don't tell me about his campaign. WILL AXELROD BE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, IN CHARGE OF DEMESTIC POLICY LIKE ROVE WAS? Obama is no MLK, He is more like the DIVIDA NOT THE UNIDA. .
I suppose that by your post you are questioning Senator Hart's support of Obama as based on ignorance, "SERATONIN attacks", "getting high", not knowing what "EXECUTION OF POLICY" means, and his general lack of knowledge in Geography.
Pardon my skepticism, but I would rather go by Senator Hart's judgement on this rather than of an unknown poster like you, especially beacuse I find your arguments based on unsubstantiated opinions, rather than on facts.
As one of those who would have been glad to tolerate Johnson if he had had the guts to end the war in Vietnam, I haven't missed him a bit, but I am sorry to see that Hillary did not learn from his mistakes. Once again a war is what divides the wise from the fools.
Hillary never held a responsible position before being elected to the Senate and her voting record does not recommend her to any intelligent person. Her lack of administrative ability is amply demonsrtated by her train wreck of a campaign. On the other hand Obama's campaign has shown planning, organizational skill and administrative ability,
Relax, look at the facts. Don't let your resentments blur reason.
Obama 08
Senator Hart, are you referring to Hillary Clinton, or someone else? The Clintons have zero integrity, and they're damaging the party with every new slur and innuendo against Obama, who refuses to crawl in the mud with them. Why treat them with kid gloves? http://www.newsprism.com
Mr Hart -- one need only see the viciousness and slander directed against former Pres Carter on cnn this evening on glen beck and the degree of trashing a former president that is unprecedented (saying he's a loser and other slanders) by who are essentially pro-war-on-iran or any other arab country, pro-israeli americans that put knesset wishes above the US no matter the consequences ---- THEY are the ones planting the seeds of anti-semitism in this country and the day will come (if they continue) that the american public will no longer stand for such a cozy relationship with the apartheid state - the so called "only democracy in the middle east" will soon hopefully have its umbilical cord cut and THEN it will have to learn how to peacefully coexist
In the quest for a just peace, it is not necessary to cut the "umbilical cord" of any country or group. The idea is to find a solution such that Israel and a Palestinian State can both exist and prosper, and live in peace. To fight injustice against Palestinians shouldn't require injustice against Israel.
I believe that is exactly what President Carter seeks. As for Glen Beck, who cares? There are always rascals out there.
@ leomarvin -- exactly what part was "hateful"? is there anything that could be possibly said that is critical AND not considered hateful those your self who are incapable of tolerating criticism?
@ humeskeptic -- in the quest for peace this country needs to cut the cord of all dependent countries of our tax dollars - israel, egypt et al -- it is only then that despotic regimes will have to learn to listen to their people and NOT be occupiers nor tyrants ----- how is cutting the umbilical cord of israel "injustice" - this is really a perversion of the word's meaning - isn't israel a sovereign state? if so why is it dependent on US taxpayer handouts? can't those who support it do so without forcing other US taxpayers to pay out a few THOUSAND dollars PER israeli man, woman and child EVERY YR? granted egypt gets about the same $ as israel (NOT the same military handouts) but its population is 70 million NOT 5 million --- why not cut off both dependent states? we should not be supporting the propping up of ANY other governments ANYWHERE
i could not care or less about cnn's beck and it was not him but the unanimously agreeing guests and host saying in essence how this country needs to bend over to all whims of anyone in the knesset --- this on an "american" cable "news" station
If you want to reduce hate, it helps not to say hateful things.
It's 2008, why is Isreal still building settlements in violation of UN charter, and the good ol USA says or does nothing?
I find it peculiar that there continue to be litmus tests in both parties which are used to decide which candidates are worthy of support. In the Republican party it is important that a candidate is in favor of DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) and that they are against abortion. In the Democratic party it is important that there is support of Israel's "right to exist". This argument is as old as the seven day war. I don't think any modern politician would ever take exception for Israel's "right to life." However what is disturbing is the way the Bush administration has supported the Zionist agenda of the Israeli government to boot. This is similar to the position taken by the most extreme anti abortionists. That it is okay to bomb Planned Parenthood Clinics!
In the name of defending Israel, there have been many atrocities committed, however there isn't much capital in saying that. So let's all genuflect, and show our solidarity for the policies of Israel.
Giordy
Both the U.S. and Israel had better reign in their neo-cons or both will find themselves out in the cold.
There is an enormous con going on between the U.S. and Israel, and the working people of this country are the big losers. You've got 5 million Europeans of Jewish descent who came up with a bizarre theory that they should move into a third world country, steal the land, steal the houses, attack the native population to run them off, then declare that God said they should do it. And then they form an even weirder alliance with the U.S. by which my politicians vote to send them my money, and then israel takes a percentage off the top, launders it back into the U.S., and uses it to bribe my politicians, and/or to defeat any politician who won't play in their corrupt game.
$10 billion is the most recent amount of my money given to Israel. Plus an additional $78 million for "refugees," but Israel doesn't have refugees, they create refugees. So I'm buying an apartment in Israel (or on more stolen land) for some guy from L.A. who decides he wants to go to Israel and have an adventure. At my expense.
Imagine Mormons going to Africa and stealing land, then the U.S. giving them $10 billion/year. How many of our citizens would put up with that? What's the difference? There is none.
U.S. Out of Israel
Israel has at least as much right to exist as the United States, a country founded by Europeans and taken (stolen) from the indigenous peoples including, first the native Americans and then the southwest which was grabbed from the Mexicians. How did we manage to get Hawaii? Was it donated to us by the native population?
Are we now prepared to return the lands to their native populations? I think not.
Despite, what the writer of the above post has noted, a large part of the Israeli population is not of European background, but native to the surrouding lands such as Iraq, Syria, Yemen, and even Ethiopia, countries that essentialy forced them out and expropriated their properties. At least Jews, unlike the Europeans that founded our country, had some historic roots to the land.
A little knowledge of history would be helpful in trying to find solutions to a complex problem.
So we're both bad guy imperialists.
Why don't we accept this, make the rich white people of the world stop the global killing and profiting and actually build a sound society.
Why can't we do that? Oh, that's right...because it's not on the agenda--especially when there's so much money and power to be made by controlling a nation's resources and playing around with nukes.
All the while, sad poor people will have to die.
then by your logic the native americans shoud get their land back, as they have some historic roots to the land. two wrongs dont make a right
It's all stolen land. And the genocidal policies of Israel against the Palestinians are clearly documented. As for the "historic roots," that is the subject of great controversy.
But the bottom line is this: I don't want to pay for it. Why should any American be compelled to support Israel? They either should learn to support themselves, learn to live in peace with their neighbors (they've had 60 years to try to work something out) or leave. Neither of which is of any concern to me. I just don't want to pay for it. And there is no legitimate reason to compel any American to pay for this, year after year. It is a big con, a theft of the taxpayer's money.
So rationalize all you want, but the bottom line is, I don't want to pay for it. The Israelis think they have a legitimate claim to live on stolen land? Great, they can live off their own nickel and work it out. I don't want to support them. No more.
Just because the U.S. did it, doesn't make it right.
I know how the state of Israel was created. You rightfully point out that a part of the population was from the middle east, but I believe mostly they were of European background. The Jews saw their opportunity and they took it. I think that there was more compassion for the native Arabs that were displaced earlier in the history of Israel than there is now. Regardless if a large percentage of the current population is willing to trade land and water rights for peace, that is now what is happening under Ehud Olmert's administration. It's funny the USA is all up in arms when Saddam disregarded U.N. resolutions, but it's perfectly fine when Israel scoffs at resolutions regarding settlements in the West Bank.
The concept that God gave out land to various peoples combined with the belief of fundamentalist Christians that a war in a particular area is necessary to fullfill a holy prophecy would shame the most superstitious fantasy of the dark ages.
Yet this combined with the manipulations of greedy men drives America's foreign policy including its war against Iraq.
Every single acre of inhabitable land on the face of the earth has been won by violence, held by violence and lost by violence over and over again
The only way to stop the violence is try to reasonably agree on borders and rights of various peoples who are now currently occupying disputed areas and to guarantee their safety.
As long as the U.S. attempts to occupy Iraq, it cannot possibly play a role in bringing peace to Israel and the Palestinians
Ever hear of the "golden rule"? Them that's gots the gold makes the rules. The powers that were and be created the State of Israel. It was their "bizarre theory." The "even weirder alliance" with the U.S. was inherent in the country's creation. *Our* politicians make sure that Israel is secure because, geopolitically, financially, and socially, it's currently in the interests of the U.S. that Israel not fall. The relationship between the U.S. and Israel is mutual self-interest. Barack Obama certainly knows this and supports this. He's far too smart not to.
Israel is not really the problem. Multinational corporations and the military / industrial / entertainment complex are. "Corrupt games" are *their* mainstay. You can argue Israel's expansion onto lands belonging to the Palestinians. The U.S. overlooks this and other actions that are questionable or objectionable for the above-stated reasons. Meanwhile trillions of dollars "disappear" while we endure the quagmire of Iraq and contemplate another in Iran.
Not to belabor the point, but the Holocaust was an unprecedented atrocity in recent human history, recent history being within a human lifetime. Why were 6 million Jews killed? They were killed because they were Jews--no other reason, the culmination of centuries of antisemitism. As I say, you can argue Israeli expansion onto the land of others, but that's about all that you can argue.
No - you can argue that support for Israel is detrimental to American interests.
The US position in the world would be much more favorable if we took a balanced approach to Israel.
Plus, invoking the Holocaust does not justify further wrongs.
Plus, Israel continues to occupy other people's land and subject them to arbitrary abuse and harm.
Plus, Israel refuses to stop illegal acts (settlements) and apparently intends to eventually displace the current occupants of the west bank, Gaza and perhaps more territory.
And, what is most galling, elements in this country use their political influence to initiate and sustain these abominations.
Actually, as far as recent history goes (Jews have populated Israel for thousands of years) many Jews emigrated from Russia in the late 1800s when Israel was under control of the Ottoman Empire. At that time, many of the areas were dry and inhospitable. It was only after the Jews irrigated and farmed the areas that the region became more desirable. This led to a surge in immigration both by European and Russian Jews, but also Muslim and Jewish Arabs (yes, there have also been Jews living in Arab countries for thousands of years - there are even Jews living in Iran). After 1948, most Arab countries and Iran have forced Jews out of the countries making immigration to Israel a necessity.
That is primarily BS.
If you want to talk history, how about when the jews FIRST invaded. You know - at Jericho - where the jews murdered " every man, woman, child and beast" and then took over the land.
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