Should Mormons Be Allowed to Marry?
Last Tuesday Californians narrowly passed Proposition 8, which bans marriage between two consenting adults of the same sex. Undoubtedly there are countless reasons why this proposition passed, but certainly one of the major ones--if not the major one--was the influence of the Mormon church. Although based two states away in Utah, Mormons arrived in droves to canvas the state, encouraging the locals to pass the proposition.
Furthermore, they spent around 20 million dollars to do so. That's more money than was spent in many Senatorial races, and even more money than Will Smith gets per movie.
In fact, this was the most intense campaign the Mormons have fought since they successfully helped defeat the Equal Rights Amendment in the 1970s.
The Mormons know their time is limited--although those 65 and older resoundingly supported Prop 8, voters 18 to 29 voted against it 61-39 percent. Sometime in the not-to- distant future, another vote will be held, and the Mormons will lose.
In the meantime, the question remains, if the Mormons have the ability to decide who among us has the right to marry and who among us doesn't, don't the rest of us have that same right? So why not a new proposition for the next election day? Why shouldn't the rest of us decide if Mormons have the right to marry?
Certainly, marriage has never been an easy issue for them, as for many years they encouraged their members not just to marry, but to marry often--five, ten wives at once. Hardly mainstream values. And the news has been filled with stories of so-called breakaway Mormons for whom polygamy is only the tip of a marital iceberg of problems.
With a track record like that, it's clear Mormons don't know how to handle marriage well. So let's take it away from them until they're better prepared, say in two or three decades, when gay marriage is legal.
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Good luck with this one.
Fortunately, the United States Constitution and laws preclude you from preventing Mormons from getting married to one member of the opposite sex. They also likely prevent Californians from preventing homosexuals from getting married to a member of the opposite sex.
You see, to amend the United States Constitution, you need more than a 50% vote of the people. Federal law trumps state law, and religious affiliation is a protected class under the United States Constitution, while sexual orientation is not. That is the state of the law.
So bring a futile petition to prevent Mormons from marrying each other. Throw money down the toilet.
Is it just me or is this about the silliest, costliest, most idiotic mess ever created. All this over a word, marriage. Why can't Mormon's let God either accept or reject a marriage? Why do they have to worry about other peoples salvation when they should be worrying about their own. The majority of the funding for prop H8 came from mormons. The campaign was full of lies and deciet. What happened to "Thou Shalt Not Lie?" I thought, obviously wrongly, that Mormons were to follow the 10 commandments. What happened to "Love Thy Neighbor as Thy Self?" It has become painfully obvious to me that this does not apply to Mormons. The discrimination, bigotry, hateful Mormons (Not all I admit) is disturbing. I was excommunicated from the Mormon church a few months ago. Never held any ill feelings until now. I hear them say they do not discriminate, they are not bigots, they are not hateful. But if they look deep inside, which will happen when they meet their maker they will see and he will know just hope black their hearts are. I can't beleive I was once a part of that.
It's the same old story over and over again (I hope I don't live to a ripe old age, I'm pretty sure I'ld go nuts). One group get oppressed, then miraculously freed from oppresion, then begins oppressing others in almost exactly the same way they were oppressed.
The sentence I found most interesting in this article was the following:
"Certainly, marriage has never been an easy issue for [Mormons], as for many years they encouraged their members not just to marry, but to marry often--five, ten wives at once."
I see two possibilities:
(a) The assertion is being made that at one point the Mormon Church encouraged polygamous lesbian marriages. After all, if "members" were being asked to marry mutliple wives at once, for the men this constituted heterosexual polygyny and for the women--homosexual polygyny. If this had actually happened, there'd be a pretty watertight case Mormons should endorse at least lesbian weddings! (Lots of 'em!)
(b) The assumption is that Mormon "members" are exclusively male. Hmmm.
While the criticism of Mormons is well deserved, it's important to remember that no group is monolithic. The massive error in this article is to lump all Mormons into a stereotype. I'm a Mormon and I'm pro-gay marriage. I blogged about it recently at http://www.marshallthompson.org/wordpress/?page_id=32.
Again, I think the criticism of certain Mormons is necessary, but it's wrong to assume that all Mormons think the same. Better to reach out to anti-gay Mormons at this point and help them understand. It's an uphill battle, but it's not impossible. With more understanding, hopefully this unjust proposition can be overturned as soon as possible.
Nope. Sorry. Nice try.
If I'm going to have to sit at the back of the bus, I want company.
Don't like the heat? Get out the temple...break off and start your own pro-gay, renegade Mormon sect...you guys are good at that.
Quit trying to convince us gays that you guys are really swell...clean your own damn house first then tell me I should sympathize with you.
be careful about the company you seak, you just might get it.
Just wondering if anyone actually looked into the tax-exempt laws for non-profit organizations such as churches? They are very clear that churches cannot support a specific party or candidate, but can get behind issues, propositions, etc.
Many, many churches do.
Should we assume because the Mormon Church put money into the for Prop 8 side that people in California are unable to exercise personal judgment?
And how much money did the no for Prop 8 put in? Oh that's right. That wouldn't affect people's judgment either would it.
Let's be real. Everyone was well funded AND people made their choice.
Yup. That's pretty much what happened. Glad that's out in the open now.
Dead wrong.. people did not make their choice based on factual, honest information.
The Mormon church campaign ads made John McCain and Sarah Palin look like Mother Teresa.
Every single statement they made was false. Churches would not have lost anything, churches would not have had to hold gay marriages, Children would not have been taught homosexuality, all of it was false. Nothing would have changed for any non gay person at all but they lied lied lied every step of the way and poured 75% of the money the yes people spent.
Ignorance is no excuse for stupidity and this will end at the Supreme Court and even then the Mormon church is what we call.. next.
It really won't matter if Mormons couldn't marry since the state marriage is only civil. Their real marriage is in the temple. Which brings me to my point. The California State Legislature and the Governor should pass a bill to remove the word Marriage (which is a heavily loaded religious term) from all laws and replace with Civil Union Certificate. When getting a certificate from the state, it will be a civil union certificate. Then, go to your favorite church and get married. Problem solved. The new amendment in California will be a worthless piece of historical commentary. Now, Mormons. I just finished the book: No Man Knows My History, The Life Of Joseph Smith. Wow! Jim Jones all over again (well, almost!). Go read it! It's on amazon dot com. At least go look at the comments there. Shocking!
As a Mormon who is *against* Prop 8, this type of talk is slightly offensive. Sure, our side lost and bigotry prevailed, but isn't saying Mormon's shouldn't marry for 2-3 decades kind of being a hypocrite? We fought for equal rights and all people (gays AND Mormons) should have them.
I make a huge distinction between Mormons and the Mormon church.
Marriage is a privilege given be the state. A civil right is a right is assured by the federal government.
All rights are either in the constitution or have been ruled as such by the Supreme Court.
Voting is a right. Owning a gun is a right. Even abortion is a right. Marriage is not a right.
If the people of California wanted to, they could vote not to let Mormons marry. Although I doubt such a measure would even make it to the ballot.
Another right is freedom of speech. A right which "MEMBERS" of the LDS church, other churches and organizations just used to help pass Prop. 8.
The same right that LGBTs have to express their unhappiness about the passage of Prop. 8.
Isn't America a great place to live!
So by your logic on marriage being a privilege CA could vote to prevent people of different races from marrying.
I think that was ruled unconstitutional a number of decades ago.
Discrimination is discrimination, whether it be race, religion, or sexual orientation.
Ever since Loving vs. Virginia, marriage is right, not a privilege.
This article and the comments made are criticizing the church for one reason. Because it did not agree with their cause.
If members of the church would have put the same time and effort into defeating prop 8, you people would be praising them as "good people" and "true Americans." But they didn't, they took the other side.
So, because your side didn't win, you attack them and whine about the "separation of church and state." (By the way, read the constitution. There is nothing about the separation of church and state in it.)
I am not saying that there should be a theocracy, but a free society should be allowed to express there values and beliefs in the public arena. Does the first amendment sound familiar? That is where social progressives (not liberals or Democrats) take away freedom of speech with their political correctness. Similar to what the communist did in the USSR.
Also, compared to other religions the LDS church rarely takes sides on political issues or candidates. The members may, that is there choice.
Also, for those of you who think that Mormons mindless followers. Utah has one of the highest percentages of independent voters in the country.
I'm mad at those who voted for Prop 8 because they stepped on my freedom of religion. My religious belief is that marriage is open to all. Be it a man and a woman, a man and a man, or a woman and a woman.
In California I am now not free to practice my religious beliefs.
And the separation is in the Constitution, it is also known as the Establishment Clause. You know the one that say congress can't create any laws establishing religion.
We attack the Mormon church for blatantly misrepresenting the facts and buying votes with false campaign ads.
To clarify the donations and the tax-exempt status -- the money supporting prop 8 came from its members, not the Church as an institution, so there's no tax issue, please understand the facts correctly.
According the most recent list, the Church gave over $4,000.
The church donated the expense they cause the movement, such as church leaders traveling to ca to visit with pro prop 8 leaders, on the movements expense. The 4,000 is merely a refund.
The Morman church specifically solicited its membership to contribute funds to the yes on 8 campaign.
It is the same thing.
Mr. Stone,
I believe you are right in saying that there are countless reasons why prop 8 didn't pass. With that knowledge, it would be more fruitful to lend your writing talent to explore how its opponents can do better next time, than bash the Mormons, since you can't get rid of us. :) How about a lack of interest in working with religious people (who, in majority, believe all people are created equal by a caring God), rather than against them? How about an effort to portray gay families and their interactions in the community in the ads to raise awareness, rather than inappropriate attacks on Mormons? So the Mormons were organized and had some success through their grass-root efforts, hardly a surprise if you know anything about a Church that provides much effective humanitarian relief around the world. Why weren't prop 8 opponents equally organized?
You surely must realize that the young voters of today will grow up, have children and perhaps view issues differently in a few years, so dialog and mutual understanding is still the way to go, and not ironic-toned articles like yours, which further widen the divide.
Mormons are not ant-gay, we are "Pro-Family"!
If you want to take rights away from gays and lesbians because you don't like them and you believe they don't deserve the same opportunity for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness," then you are anti-gay. You have drawn a "false dilemma." You can be BOTH pro-gay marriage and pro-family. They are not mutually exclusive, except perhaps in your narrow view of the world.
Heterosexuals have no inherent right to marriage.
"Heterosexuals have no inherent right to marriage"
"Broad Brush!" or "Narrow view".
What rights? Gay's have the same rights as heterosexuals in the State of CA. I belive, we are talking about "Privildge's" vs "Rights". Don't confuse the legal doctrine of the two.
The Nazi's weren't anti-Jew, they were pro-Germany.
Excuse me? Are you comparing Mormons to the Nazis????
Pro Whose family? Definitely not mine. I thought there was separation of church and state. Who's pushing their agenda to who? People should have the right to choose their belief as it states in the constitution. You can repress it but you can't help it and sooner or later it will come out. I can't think of a single moment in my life where I've heard anybody, gay or straight, say to anyone you should be gay. Did mix marriages or divorce, once considered as well an abomination, destroyed the american family? I don't think so, as well as I don't think it made you marry a person of color or get a divorce unless you really wanted it. If you want to make sure you will not have gay children, or that they are not expoxed to anything gay, do not procreate. But once you have them, what do you do? Cast them out? Take away their rights? Love them only with the condition that they deny who they really are? Make their life missery so they turn to addiction to ease the pain? Some kind of family values pal. That's really some "good" parenting you are proposing here and some anti human values you will teach your children. I pity them.
Bigotry vs. Civil Rights?
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