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Geoffrey R. Stone

Geoffrey R. Stone

Posted: November 30, 2010 04:49 PM

This is an exchange I had a few days ago with a good friend (pseudonym "Jones" ) about my post last week about DADT (DADT and the Tyranny of the Minority):

Jones: Having spent four years in the Navy, I do believe there were gay sailors on board the aircraft carrier I was on because of the number of sailors assigned. However, not really knowing, I was not uncomfortable taking communal showers. This is a case where what you don't know won't hurt you. Therefore, I am against letting gay persons openly serve -- unless showering can be done in a more private way. I have nothing against gay people. I don't happen to have any gay friends but I would not hesitate to welcome a gay person as a friend, just as long as I don't have to shower with him.

Stone: Why would you object to showering with him? What do you think would happen?

Jones: I would feel my private parts are there for him to view. When dressed, I have no objection because those parts, which are part of his sexual preference, are hidden from view. As I like to look at women, and women look at men, just to assess their beauty, the feeling would change if there were no clothes involved. I had this experience when in Rome when I was in the service. They had communal showers with individual stalls in the hotel, but your clothes were on a hook outside the shower where everyone could see each other. And yes, I had those urges but did not act on them, even though I was not married at the time. I think that gay men have the same feelings when they see a man. And, with clothes removed, this would only enhance their feelings and that would make me very uncomfortable if I knew the person next to me was gay. Am I a prude? I don't think so, but I know my own feelings and what I believe are the feelings of other men and women. I think it's just part of human nature.

Stone: Undoubtedly that's true -- you would worry that gays could see your privates. But think about what you've said. Because you would worry about gays seeing your privates, you're prepared to discriminate against them and deny them the opportunity to serve their country, even though they've done nothing wrong.

Moreover, when you go into the military you commit to leaving your loved ones for an extended period of time, you commit to training brutally hard and living in communal barracks and learning how to kill other people, you commit to being in combat if necessary, in which you might have to live in horrid conditions, kill and main other human beings (some perhaps innocent of any wrongdoing), and risk being maimed or killed yourself. But you don't want a gay man to see you privates? This makes sense to you?

And beyond that, what do you think happens today in high school locker rooms, college dorms, and athletic clubs? In all of these places, and many others besides, straight men have their private parts seen by gay men. I have never once heard of anyone making a fuss over this, even today when many gays are "out" and others know they are gay. I have never heard of anyone quitting the football team or moving out of the dorms or giving up his membership in an athletic club because he knows a gay man has seen his privates.

The plain and simple fact is that, when all is said and done, this is a non-issue that people, without reflection, have been conditioned to think is a big deal. If you found yourself naked someday in a locker room or a doctor's office, would you really give a damn for more than a moment or two if a gay man saw your privates?

 
 
 
 
 
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Cactusman
Persons of Cactus, Unite!
03:34 PM on 12/01/2010
I personally think that a few shower curtains would help in general. A little privacy is a good thing. Let's just hope that Halliburton won't sell them to the military for $20,578 apiece.

That said, I also think it's pretty arrogant to assume that every gay guy will automatically be attracted to you. Are you straight boys attracted to every female you meet? Do you act on it with every one? If you do, you have social boundary issues.

Normal, socially healthy people (including gays) can separate thoughts and feelings from actions. If some gay guy harasses a straight guy in the military, then he should be dealt with using the appropriate channels.

Somehow, however, I think that gay guys in the military won't tread on ice that thin. If anything, it'll be the straight guys harassing the gay guys. And that NEVER leads to "attraction", because homophobia and harassment isn't a very appealing trait to gays.

Ladies of the military: What is your take on lesbians serving openly?
02:35 PM on 12/01/2010
Why is it that the primary defense on keeping dadt is the shower saga lol its war time and this guy is crying about being naked infront of other naked men, maybe you shouldn't be in the military. The shower saga lol come on, no one cared about your junk. Do you not see how micro this argument is? You must be one of those people who turn mole hills into mountains.
01:10 PM on 12/01/2010
You know, they could just put up a couple of shower curtains.
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Paddy Murphy
12:57 PM on 12/01/2010
Speaking from experience, as an airman and Arabic linguist serving under (and ultimately a victim of) DADT, gay men and lesbians often knew who each other were and moved in the same social circles. Furthermore, I can remember thinking to myself of an old saying my father once taught me about workplace romances, something I still practice to this day, "son, don't $h*t where you eat." Work was work, and in my free time, those I, and my fellow gay servicemen, chose to spend our time with, were not our fellow airmen. I don't see that suddenly changing when DADT is done away with.
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Edward Standley
opinionated jerk
12:36 PM on 12/01/2010
As your average straight guy, I can tell you that there are a lot worse hazards in High School and Military communal showers than gay dudes peekin' at yer willie. Wet towel "bullwhips", forced solitary confinement in lockers, loudly proclaimed "assessments" of body shape, amount of hair and size of aforementioned willie, and the newly revived tea-bagging. It's all pretty much good natured ragging and hazing. Running the gauntlet of all these "fun activities" generally keeps a guy's mind busy enough that he doesn't have to worry about shielding his junk from "lusting eyes". Besides, if ya do catch someone peekin', an "indian rope burn" or a "bullwhip" should settle the matter. :)
12:30 PM on 12/01/2010
I wouldnt.....but it does beg the question.....why do we have separate shower facilities for women ?
11:21 AM on 12/01/2010
So far I have seen NO rational reason for doing away with DADT. Is there a shortage of recruits? That is NOT the case now. The military discriminates all the time for good reasons. They keep fat people out, too thin, too short, those who are unfit mentally, politically, etc..You do NOT have a right to a job in the military just because YOU want one. The needs of the service come first, and from what I have seen, the vocal gays do NOT believe that at all. They think that the military should conform to THEM, not the other way around. Sorry, but that is NOT the way to successfully run a military organization.
01:51 PM on 12/01/2010
Its not discrimination for wanting a sound mind recruit, for wanting a in-shape soldier, this is not a discrimination, all troops need to be physically capable. I would rather have a gay/lesbian on my team,and toss out the fat kid who wont be able to perform tip top shape. We all discriminate everyday, but asking people to live a life of lies, and restricting them from a normal life, is wrong. How would you like it, if the military put a policy that allows couples to have one child, and one child only. There is no rational reason to remove this policy of having one child is there? This dadt policy is restricting humans from a normal way of life. In order to meet the needs of the service, you must meet the needs of the service members, the service members make the military, they are the military.
02:33 PM on 12/01/2010
When gays join the military now they know the rules. THEY CHOOSE to accept them by joining. As for couples joining and being limited in child numbers, if it gets in the way of the military, they are GONE! If your child causes a problem on base, YOU are gone too by the way. There are MANY duty stations that PROHIBIT dependents too. That is part of being in the military. Think that we should then demand that ALL duty stations allow dependents?

If there were a shortage of recruits, then you might have a point. There is NONE at this time. The military is NOT the job of last resort nor do you have a RIGHT to be in the military,
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Mik McAllister
10:04 AM on 12/01/2010
Jones is full of it.

I served on the USS John F Kennedy, an aircraft carrier. We had no communal showers. Each shower was in a separate stall.
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AnotherTry
Tell me again why we can't be equal?
09:57 AM on 12/01/2010
Anyone who comes out with this argument is the one stealing glances at other men's privates. Hence they know of what they speak.
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David Campbell
08:36 AM on 12/01/2010
In my all boys public high school in Chicago we swam naked. In the army we had no privacy whatsoever. Where this sort of thinking comes from I don't know. Insecurity? Shame? Stupidity? Take your choice.
07:12 AM on 12/01/2010
Certain Senators who claim to be military experts are either not being honest or are hiding facts when they say they now want a second survey. (John McCain)

There have already been two other studies on this issue over the last two decades that reached the same conclusion­­­ as this last one, that gays should be allowed to serve.

The Pentagon did a study in the late 80's that concluded gays should be allowed to serve. They tried to bury it.

http://www­­­­.nytime­s­.­c­om/1­98­9/­10­/­22/­us/­re­p­or­t-ur­­ging­­-end­-­of-h­o­m­ose­xua­l-­b­an-­re­j­ecte­d-­b­­y-milit­a­­­ry.html?p­­­­agewant­ed­=­­1

Then the General Accounting Office undertook a study at the request of Congress in 1992. It also said that the Policy should be scraped.

http://www­­­­.nytime­s­.­c­om/1­99­2/­06­/­20/­us/­mi­l­it­ary-­­s-an­­ti-g­a­y-ru­l­e­-is­-co­st­l­y-a­-r­e­port­-s­a­­ys.html

This is now the third survey that has reached the same conclusion­­. Bigots will always be bigots and allowing them to try to claim that they need more time to "Study" this is letting them off the hook for their bigotry
04:58 AM on 12/01/2010
Repeal DADT already! What is the big deal, people should be allowed to be themselves, wherever. The military have codes of conduct for sexual behaviors of all orientation...that's all they need. done.
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Jay Morgan
U.S. Army (Retired)
04:53 AM on 12/01/2010
I spent 20+ years in the U.S. Army, 14 of them in the 75th Ranger Regiment, and the entire time as a gay man. I personally never had any problems with communal showering or latrines; I wasn't there 'looking' for potential sex. I was wounded twice in action and received a Bronze Star for Valor. I didn't come out until after my medical retirement (after being wounded the last time) and although I've had some problems with the V.A., they have been handled with a little help from my congressmen. Stupid policy, immature attitudes and a shameless media don't help with this issue. You tell an American soldier what to do, and he/she will do it. That's just the way it is.
08:13 AM on 12/01/2010
Thank you for your service.
11:11 AM on 12/01/2010
There is NO problem for me or others for those gays who serve and follow the rules of DADT. The FACT is that lots of gays do NOT follow orders or the rules of DADT. You did and could serve and successfully retire. That is PROOF that DADT works quite well. Thank you for your service.
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clemmers
The rich require an abundant supply of the poor.
11:57 AM on 12/01/2010
Many who are not gay break the rules. DADT does NOT work very well for gays who are outed by others against their will. Those servicemen are forced to leave, because someone ELSE broke the rules. The rules are stupid and unenforceable.
02:18 AM on 12/01/2010
It always kills me when I hear this argument. To me this is the height of vanity to think that the sight of your naked body is going to make someone lose control and lust after you. Cuz you know gay people just can't control themselves, the sight of a naked male body is going to make them go over the edge. I used to argue this with a guy I worked with. He always said he didn't want to sleep in a dorm or whatever they call them in the military with someone that might want him. I didn't want to tell him that there weren't alot of women who would want him.
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Shaun Hensley
The American Experiment has failed
03:49 AM on 12/01/2010
Maybe he's concerned about being negatively judged. As you have done.
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AnotherTry
Tell me again why we can't be equal?
09:56 AM on 12/01/2010
If that's the case, he's too weak for military service.
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Bladesmith
Hammering out some red hot truth.
09:22 AM on 12/01/2010
It's not that they're afraid of someone of the same sex seeing them naked and desiring them; it's the fear that someone of the same sex might see them naked, and they'll like it. They're scared, deep down, that they might be gay.
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Mik McAllister
10:06 AM on 12/01/2010
Having come out to a number of straight male friends, who became offended when I told them I was not interested in having sex with them (they asked), I can tell you that isn't the issue.

They're afraid the gay guys *won't* want them.
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Stephen
11:11 PM on 11/30/2010
I don't really think gay people are filled with lust at the sight of a classmate or workmate naked. Context governs a lot of behavior. In the shower room, shower, dry, primp, get the heck out. A bath house is different. It is eye contact that starts the ball rolling before sex for heteros and homosexuals. I think it is some sort of rampant vanity that would make a man think that his mere nakedness would stir somebody's lust.