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Oh My... Did President Obama Forget Marbury v. Madison? What's Up With Harvard Law School?

Posted: 04/ 2/2012 5:38 pm

Tune in to On the Record at 10pm tonight... if we have time, I am going to discuss this.

Every law school -- yes, even Harvard Law School -- teaches the landmark case Marbury v. Madison. It was decided in 1803 (yes, 1803!). You read it your first year in law school.

The case stands for the proposition that the Supreme Court has the power to review statutes passed by Congress to determine if constitutional or not.

Here is what President Obama said today:

I would just remind conservative commentators that for years what we've heard is the biggest problem on the bench was judicial activism or a lack of judicial restraint that an unelected group of people would somehow overturn a duly constituted and passed law. Well, this is a good example.

And here's more from the Associated Press:

President Barack Obama says he remains confident that the health care law approved during his administration will be upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court.

Obama says: "It's constitutional."

Obama says the health care law was passed by a democratically elected Congress and that he does not think "unelected" members of the Supreme Court should overturn the legislation.

He said Monday the law touches upon economic, legal and human concerns, and he hopes "that's not forgotten in the political debate."

Last week, the health care law faced skepticism from conservative justices during three days of oral arguments, raising questions over whether the president's signature accomplishment will remain intact.


According to Marbury v. Madison, the Supreme Court has the power to review the constitutionality of the health care law (and any other law). So do not be disturbed by them reviewing the health care law. That IS their job.

What may disturb you is that not one member of Congress READ the bill before voting for it... and the president sure didn't read it before he SIGNED it.

But, to get to the president's point about 'unelected officials' -- AND WHAT IS SCANDALOUS -- is that after the 2,700 page law was signed by the president, it got sent to HHS for them to create rules to implement. Those who are writing these rules -- and there are thousands of rules expected -- are not only NOT elected, we don't ever learn their names. They are simply government employees at the HHS with ENORMOUS power over your lives and you have zero say about it. You can't vote them out of office -- they aren't elected and you don't know their names! Yes, THAT is scandalous because they have so much power over your life. Congress -- our elected officials -- should write the rules. They are answerable to us.

We have discussed this On the Record at 10pm many times....

Cross-posted from GretaWire.

 
 
 
 
 
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08:59 PM on 04/09/2012
Despite M v. M, the U.S.S.C knows that Acts of Congress are presumed constitutional and that the presumption is strong. Also, while duly recognizing the courts' authority of engage in judicial review, the Executive Branch has often urged courts to respect the legislative judgment of Congress. The Court accords great weight to the decisions of Congress. The President's remarks were fully consistent with theses principles.
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05:40 PM on 04/04/2012
"According to Marbury v. Madison, the Supreme Court has the power to review the constitutionality of the health care law (and any other law). So do not be disturbed by them reviewing the health care law. That IS their job." Greta Van Susteren

Nothing that Obama said contradicts this statement. He did not say that they should not review the law, he said that he believes they do not have a legal reason to overturn a duly constituted law. He is not disturbed by their review.
Greta's argument fails in every respect. She is arguing a different scenario and thinks no one is paying attention. Not surprising, and not persuasive.
12:55 PM on 04/04/2012
It's amaaaazzzing.
11:47 PM on 04/03/2012
The line keeps being repeated about the "nameless" clerks in government who are implementing the rules for health care. Hasn't that been happening for years at insurance companies? Since we can't seem to avoid the nameless hordes, I would prefer my "nameless" clerk to not be trying to make a profit off of me.
09:48 AM on 04/04/2012
Tim, you live in a society where profit is the motive, and is the only way to stay in business. Don't make the mistake of assuming that a namelss bureacrat is going to have your best interests in mind; think of any typical interface with the Feds, and you'll recall this. Then think of the thousands of IRS agents that are waiting to be hired, to enforce YOUR payment for this great healthcare.
11:44 AM on 04/04/2012
For years at insurance companies, claim adjusters and underwriters have been implementing rules for insurance. They can be fired for poor performance and incompetence. Insurance pays for healthcare as stipulated by the insurance policies. If there is a problem with an insurance policy or claim, the insured can complain to the head of the company. If the Company does nothing, the insured can complain to insurance commisioner. If the insurance commisioner does nothing, the insured can complain to elected officials or sue.

With Obamacare, the nameless clerks will be government employees who can't be fired for poor performance and incompetence (picture healthcare being administered by the DMV). There will not be multiple avenues to elevate complaints when one one of these nameless clerks who can't be fired screws up.
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03:58 PM on 04/04/2012
Well said. Happy to be your first fan.

Welcome to hp!
10:29 PM on 04/03/2012
Disappointing but predictable commentary. While I don't often agree with Ms. van Susteren's positions, I admire that she is is one of the few Fox contributors who actually thinks about matters. But for purposes of clarity, judicial restraint is simply this: in the event there is not a clear constitutional flaw or violation, the Court defers to the actions of the legislative and executive branches - a simple majority of five justices do not substitute their opinions for the acts of a majority in Congress, and signed into law by the President.
09:52 AM on 04/04/2012
But there IS a "constitutional flaw" in this law... that's the problem. Your last line sums up what every Obamacare supporter thinks, and wishes were true, but the SC has jurisdiction in deciding if this is constitutional or not.
For BHO to publicly admonish them, shows that he fears his signature legislation is going down. And he would be correct.
Few would argue that Healthcare needs some reform, but this "law" is fatally wounded.
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05:44 PM on 04/04/2012
If you read the President's statement you will find - no admonishment. Only an opinion that the law is constitutional. Some people hear what they want, but his statement was clearly, opinion.
07:15 PM on 04/03/2012
I would not want members of Congress, very few if any of whom have expertise in healthcare policy, writing the rules for implementation of healthcare legislation. I would much rather have that task left to professionals in the field--the very appointed officials that you complain about--who have the education, training and experience to enable them to develop policies that are consistent with the intent of the law and that will work effectively. There is nothing outrageous about that.
11:37 PM on 04/03/2012
They are not professional in the field and they'll never cure anybody. They are government employees. Unaccountable, un fireable, sitting there for life no matter the results.
07:06 PM on 04/03/2012
Ms. Susteren, let's remember that while you claim to know as fact that not one member of Congress read that ACA before voting on it, it is a well-documented fact that Justice Scalia expressed incredulity that anyone might expect him or the other justices to read the law before ruling on it. Do you see that as a problem?
11:30 AM on 04/04/2012
Congress didn't have a problem, now did they? Why should the SCOTUS?
06:30 PM on 04/03/2012
Hey Greta,

Have you read the entire ACA and can cite specific aspects of it that you object to? I seriously doubt it and I even more seriously doubt that the Supreme Court is going to do that either. Consequently, they will limit their ruling to whether Congress has the authority to require every American to protect themselves from a medical financial catastrophe which, should they fail to do, will fall on those Americans that do take on that responsibility and the federal government. The rest, they will leave to Congress and the appropriate federal agencies to have it succeed or fail on its own merits.
09:20 AM on 04/04/2012
Hey Ssinger

They don't have to rule on the entire bill just the mandate part is it constitutional for the government to force Americans to buy health insurance or be fined or taxed (is it a fine or is it a tax I guess it is a fine when the government doesnt want you to think it is a tax and a tax when they don't want you to think it is a fine) I have tried to read parts of it and it is like reading something from Mars!
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04:01 PM on 04/04/2012
Worse than the Internal Revenue Code, if that is even possible.
05:16 PM on 04/03/2012
Greta... you are wonderful, but you took the bait. Obama doesn't really believe what he is saying, he just wants others to believe it.

What has been argued against in Judicial Activism previously is when the bench runs counter to the constitution or creates statutory constraints not passed by a legislative body.

What the Supreme Court is now doing is ruling on whether the Congress passed a law which itself is contrary to the constitution which is very much in its proper role.
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04:21 PM on 04/03/2012
There are some excellent point raised here regarding Constitutional Law, Congress and the Supreme Court responsibilities. Writing such long, convoluted bills is a huge part of the problem. Leaving it up to committees and courts to determine the validity and the process moving forward illustrates a major defect in how Congress operates. No wonder the populace is not pleased. Time to vote them out of office next time around. What would happened if they all got replaced? No one would know the ridiculously complicated rules of the game they play. They would have to re-invent a new process from scratch. Not a bad thing probably.
03:55 PM on 04/03/2012
Greta obviously didn't understand the context of what Obama was saying. He wasn't saying they didn't have the right to hold law to it's Constitutional Standard. He, in a veiled way, was saying that they were exhibiting undo influence onto laws to hold them to the standards of their own PERSONAL agenda.
Not to the CONSTITUTIONAL agenda.

This is the problem with Radical Republicans... they're so intent on saying they're right that they become SLOPPY.

Greta, time to hit the (law) books.
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04:05 PM on 04/04/2012
If your interpretation of Obama's words are correct, then it is even WORSE than what Greta suggested. Because it is prejudging their ability to be objective and do their JOBS. "Undue influence"? Hardly. Its their JOB to interpret the Constitution.

It would be nice if the President were to stick to HIS job and leave the experts to THEIRS.
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06:29 PM on 04/04/2012
Gosh Rocky, your response was removed before it was posted. Could it possibly be because it was because you were so "intent on being right" that you would make random and sloppy because they are specious, allegations about someone whose only crime was exercising poor judgement in responding to your post?
12:31 AM on 04/05/2012
Actually I said that about you. That you were so intent on "SAYING you're right" that you were sloppy when you read my reply.

Obama is saying that they are consciously ignoring the Constitution.

Obama used PAST tense: We've seen "judicial activism or a lack of judicial restraint".
As opposed to being committed to applying the CONSTITUTION to their decisions (which is their job) they are applying their power to push a PERSONAL/ POLITICAL agenda (they are being activists for a cause EVEN IF THE CONSTITUTION OPPOSES THEIR VIEW.
Get it?

Do you understand that just because a judge can be wrong: He DOES NOT have the RIGHT to consciously judge wrongly?

Obama is saying that they are ABUSING the power entrusted to them.
That they are NOT doing their jobs...
That -to use your words- if they are experts that they should apply their expertize not their bias.

Is this too complex for you?

(I know that emotionally it's beyond you but ask a 10 year old to explain it.)
03:02 PM on 04/03/2012
While it is true that we don't know the name of every low-level staffer that contributes to the writinging of regulations, you need only go to the department's webstite to find the names of the people who have to approve the regulations. Plus new regulations are published and subject to public review prior to being adopted (although it is often only powerful lobbying groups that are successful at getting changes made). Plus Congress has great influence over the regulations as the staffers of the departments are always concerned about their funding (sometimes this is not a good thing as political motivations can overpower good policy).

So while I don't like many of the regulations that are written, I'm not sure fanning paranoia is the best approach to improving the system.
05:11 PM on 04/03/2012
Yes. Van Sustern paints a very dishonest and disturbing picture of how our laws get made. She knows better.

It's bad enough as it is without making it appear legislation is all in the hands of unknown bureaucrats. We know it's actually in the hands of the wealthy backers of Congress and self-interested media.
09:56 AM on 04/04/2012
What did you see about Greta's analysis that was "dishonest"?
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04:07 PM on 04/04/2012
IOW you agree with Greta that the laws and regulations are not being written by those who are accountable to us.
02:51 PM on 04/03/2012
Judicial activism would mean the court creating something that did not previously exist, i.e., the right to privacy, etc. Seems to me a federal mandate that most Americans buy health insurance --even if it sounds like a good idea-- is at least constitutionally suspicious.
02:50 PM on 04/03/2012
The Constitution is obsolete with respect to many laws passed in the 21st century. The founders could not even imaging the changes in social structure that would occur in the US. Slavery was abolished, while tolerated in the original document - by constitutional amendment. It is not suitable that make or changes in societal welfare be subjected to passage by 2/3 of the states in a highly partisan era, where common sense falls before ideology.
The Supreme Court's conservative, Republican, Catholic wing practices judicial activism which it decries. They have officially changed democracy to oligarchic plutocracy with Citizens United.
Will they make health subject to affordability? The wealthy have no problems and the Court and Congress get tax payer funded health care.
03:11 PM on 04/03/2012
Your comment "The Supreme Court's conservative, Republican, Catholic wing practices judicial activism which it decries. They have officially changed democracy to oligarchic plutocracy with Citizens United.
Will they make health subject to affordability? The wealthy have no problems and the Court and Congress get tax payer funded health care." shows a total disconnect with reality. If you actually studied the Constitution, you would realize that Congress has NO power to mandate an individual citizen into purchasing or enganging in commerce of any kid for any reason. That power (10Th admendment) was given solely to the states. America's problem is the people who speak the party failed talking points (like you did) instead of learning about the issues and facts for themselves. The Constitution is a viable document that has no draw backs because it can be amended by the people, and the founders made it hard to amend so that no fringe group from the left nor the right could impose their will on the normal people and press their failed agendas. Your comments remind me that the ignorant are trying to run the country and will say whatever it takes to try and fool the masses into following their failed policies. Stop listening to party talking points and learn some facts. Those so called judges you despise know more about law than you do and they have more credibility than you on this topic so I think we are in better hands with them.
07:55 PM on 04/03/2012
It is a tricky thing to count on the 10th Amendment in defining the limits to Congress. The 10th ends with the phrase, " or to the people." Interestingly enought the Preamble of the Constitution begins with " We the People..", and than goes in the actual Constitution to describe the Federal Government and it's powers the People created. So there is an argument that the People, in creating Congress and empowering it to "Promote the general welfare", can decide at any time, acting through a popularly elected government , to extend greater powers to Congress without State approval or Constitutional Amendment so long as they do not abridge any of the individual rights guaranteed to the people. In essence, the People have the right to overrule the States when acting through Congress.
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02:49 PM on 04/03/2012
Obama's push in 2009 was something 72% of the electorate wanted at the time -- the public option. The GOP, with their pockets bulging with health insurance bribery money, fought the public will all the way. Finally, some Republicans in the Senate gave in to the monstrous ACA, no doubt padded with caveats added by health insurance lobbyists. Worst of all, the individual mandate was originally a Republican idea. Get real, Greta. What the GOP wants is privatized health care that only the wealthy can afford. What the American people really want is Medicare for all. It's more affordable and will produce a more vital health care system than this fee-for-service mess we have.