Damsels In Success: A Debate: Do Women Need Men and/or Children In Order to be Fulfilled?

Recently, on DamselsInSuccess.com we featured a debate between the founder of www.thestateof.com and Rebecca Thorman who writes at http://modite.com/blog. Both authors answer the question, "Do women need men and/or children in order to be fulfilled?"

Progress Sometimes Hides the Truth

by www.thestateof.com:

It is said that famed feminist Gloria Steinem once quipped, "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle." Well, if that's the case, fish need bicycles.

In heterosexual marriage, the male wins a woman's trust (i.e., love) through courtship. A woman cannot love a man she cannot trust. In return, she gives him the power to love her. This exchange of power for love is how a man and a woman become one, which is the primary goal of marriage. It is the psychological key that allows us to grow. Sex is the symbol of this permanent and exclusive bond. Without this growth and this bond, the lives of most people are unfulfilled.

Feminism teaches that male and female are the same and sex roles are merely "stereotypes" imposed by men. As a result, millions of people are clueless about their sexual identities and suffer from arrested development. Nowadays, women are socialized to work in corporations, not to be wives or mothers. Feminism has destabilized society by undermining heterosexuality and the family. This perverse assault on gender difference is disguised as an act of "defense" of women's' and homosexuals' "right" to be single and childless. Women have been duped into seeking "power" and "independence" (aloneness) through climbing the mirage of the corporate ladder. What women really want is power expressed as male love. They will get it when they are able to believe in a man.

True femininity acts in concert with its masculine counterpart, just as masculinity needs a feminine companion in order to truly develop. This has been the natural order of human beings from time immemorial. The natural result of this union between the masculine and the feminine is the child - Heaven's most precious gift. Without a child to care for, a woman often becomes frustrated, bitter and distracted. She often uses the "success" of her "career" (which is simply a glorified word for "job") as a replacement for the void of the missing child. Motherhood changes a woman permanently. The job, which once seemed so important, quickly becomes secondary to the starry eyes of her loving child. I've seen far too many women recite feminists mantras only to discovery - in their late 30s - that all they really wanted was a warm baby to snuggle.

Men and women are different, biologically, emotionally and physically - and there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that, so long as we never attempt to confine women to certain limited roles. In the past, men "overplayed their hands," so to speak, and wrongly confined women to solely domestic roles. Now, a vicious cycle has been created because men are overcompensating for their past transgressions by feeling as if they must act and think like women in order to make themselves more attractive (i.e., metrosexual). These men typically have a hard time keeping a woman's interest because women innately reject weak men. A man gains fulfillment by protecting and providing for a family. Weak, feminized men cannot do this.
To be clear, there is nothing wrong with a woman having a career. What is wrong is when women prioritize their career and neglect the deeper fulfillment of family life.

Generation Y Breeds a New Kind of Woman

by Rebecca Thorman

Women need men. Just not like we used to.

While career guru Penelope Trunk insists that we will find deeper fulfillment from relationships over work, others like Hannah Seligson wonder why we can't talk about "young women and careers without talking about the hunt for a husband?"

Generation Y women don't relate to either. We don't live container lives, with work and family and play muffled under air-tight lids. Our life bleeds together, and instead of a singular goal of family or career, we lead our lives as a continuum, family and career ebbing and flowing.

The reality of young women's lives today is that we want it all, despite the warnings. While coming of age during 9/11 reinforced that family is deeply important to us, we were also raised to believe we could do and be anything, especially equal to men professionally.

It's not about prioritizing one over the other, nor is there a single answer that works for everyone; there are extremes at either end. What remains consistent in women, however, is their sense of increasing independence.

Whether we check off men, children, career, or all of the above, the fact is that we have a choice, and what fulfills and limits us is not created by society and media, but increasingly our own desires.

As a result, our roles are changing. Women are becoming the leaders, and men the supporters. Even in relationships where children are the priority, and the woman chooses or is able to stay at home, women take on the dominant role, commanding a deeper respect than any time in history.

Many view the shifting roles as threatening the very basis of our biology. But it isn't. It is simply uprooting the traditional western viewpoint.

Indeed, while spouses and children still rank as a source of fulfillment for women above careers, one's personal fulfillment is increasingly not just augmented by, but necessitated by professional fulfillment as well.

Bored with motherhood and marriage, we savor the challenge of work. Michelle Obama said in a recent interview, "I love losing myself in a set of problems that have nothing to do with my husband and children. Once you've tasted that, it's hard to walk away."

Women don't need men or children for fulfillment. They might get on okay with a cat, or their career, or another woman. But really, Generation Y doesn't need much. We've been coddled and spoiled, and have long surpassed what we might need, and are instead creating what we want.

And what we want is to define a new kind of woman.

The kind of woman who is a compassionate alpha. The Generation Y woman has leadership and strength, and promotes community and empathy. We don't dismiss motherhood, but embrace our strengths and use those to change the workplace, reaping from it a greater sense of fulfillment than ever before. It is not a coincidence that at a time when power-hungry hierarchies are being broken down, women are leading and infiltrating the workplace. It is our skills and talents that have created such an influential shift.

Generation Y women are high-achievers, shrewd, well-dressed and sexy, while possessing an emotional intelligence that far surpasses our male counterparts. We don't rule by insecurities or fear, but by knowing ourselves well, and seeking connection with others. We combine "physical potency with seriousness of purpose."

In short, we're women. We strive to be who we are, in our sexual identities, and in how we construct our personal and professional lives. We acknowledge our own complexities.

Our personal and professional lives are blurred more than ever before, and a woman's strength in today's society is the fact we are true to ourselves -- more so than any other generation -- because past generations fought for our right to do so.

Comments

[mamacat]

If I may have my say:
the question as stated, must be answered by every woman as an individual. Women who are rich enough, and intelligent enough, have the power to ask the question.

But I think the true question is, Do Men and/or Children need Women in Order to feel Fulfilled? And, how is an individual woman to react to that question? In general, men and children do need a woman in order to feel fulfilled. They need a woman in order to feel nurtured, to feel secure, to feel whole. A woman must decide what her actions will be inside that dynamic. To assist children and men, or not? To remain a single entity, perhaps secure alone, but not feeling the love and gratitude that being a mother and a wife can bring. Or to take a chance, and to try to be that person that is the center of a family, the post that holds up the roof over the family, the revered wife, mother, and grandmother.

Modern society in some countries allows women to choose, and that is a very good thing. Some women are not born good mothers, and they know it. There is greater good in acknowledging one's weaknesses than in forcing others to suffer the consequences of what one knows is a mistake. And yet, the love that a woman can get is as great as what she can give, and that is an amazing thing.

[LordMoon]

Basically all your saying is that sex and marriage have become a calculation, an intellectual + and -, in which a women measures her potential for profit or loss.

And for just that reason, there is no love. Becuase love cannot exist under those curcumstances how will you give into it?

It is the calculation of doubt and fear. The calcuation of who gets what.

In the old days, all it took was the scent of her hair, and the warm touch of her lips, and a sweet smile.

Nothing complicated, just love.

My Grandparents loved each other, and were married for 53 years, and that's all they ever needed.

[wadenelson1]

haven't met a woman YET who didn't eventually decide she ABSOLUTELY HAD to have kids.... and wouldn't be "fulfilled" if she didn't.

[preraph]

Well, this may not be very intellectual, but I'm afraid this article doesn't merit a prolonged response: What a long load of hooey!

[leftLibertarian]

As a man who has been engaged twice but never married either woman, I must say I'm happy I never married and had kids.

I can do what I want, when I want. I call it liberty and I love it.

[amyscol]

Also, this idea that women can have it all is crap. I definitely have tried, and women should try just because the more you aim for the more you get, but it's crap. It's always girls in their 20s (which I am guessing Ms. Thorman is since she is Gen Y?) who think that. Wait til you want to have kids and you'll see that finding time for that means you have to admit that you can't have it all.

[commonsenselives]

"What women really want is power expressed as male love. They will get it when they are able to believe in a man. "

This woman says that like finding a good man to believe in is easy. Finding anyone trustworthy is a feat for friggin' Hercules.

"I've seen far too many women recite feminists mantras only to discovery - in their late 30s - that all they really wanted was a warm baby to snuggle."

Bullsh*t. You can be a "feminist" and still want/need/desire children. Feminism is about being on equal footing with men profesionally and personally, not about denying our basic biological leanings. Its about being able to leave your abusive/ne­glective/a­sshole spouse and still be able to put food on the table. Most women do want children, but assuming that women who CHOOSE not to are un-fulfilled is stupid. Some women don't want to be completely responsible for someone else. While that might make them selfish, that doesn't mean they're unfulfilled. And not everyone is cut out to be a parent, either.

"Now, a vicious cycle has been created because men are overcompensating for their past transgressions by feeling as if they must act and think like women in order to make themselves more attractive (i.e., metrosexual)."

Men should try to think like women to understand them. Just as I should think like a man to understand him. He should try to tap into his emotions: women are emotional creatures.

BTW, being "metrosexual" has to do with grooming habits, not a way of feeling. We women put a lot of time into our appearence and its nice when a man does the same.

I'm so sick of the "you need a baby to complete your life" crowd. If you don't feel that you are a complete person before you give birth then you have NOTHING to offer your child.

"To thine own self, be true."

[dissolvethecorporation]

The point that you are completely missing is that up until this moment, our identities and behavior are the result of inputs both internal and external, conscious and unconscious. From this moment forward, we have the right to make those choices for ourselves. Our families, and institutions should support our self-defined pursuits of happiness.

[IWonderasIWander]

Great debate. Both sides make great points.

[blueraven]

Oh, good heavens. I realize you went to an apparently homophobic space for the pro side of the argument, but your different pro argument and the composition of the question is so marginalizing to queer women, I can't even begin to believe I'm reading this in 2007. You both talk like feminism created the ability of women to be queer in the first place. Sappho is laughing her head off.