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Haroon Moghul

Haroon Moghul

Posted: October 27, 2010 08:59 PM

It Hurts to Be Muslim, Too

What's Your Reaction:

Watch The Linguists, a documentary about two really smart men who travel across the world to record dying languages because they cannot save them. They feel, express and implore, we should have: We should have tried to preserve the many different ways in which people perceive the world, the means to translate disordered affairs into stories, philosophies and motivations. As the world becomes more and more alike, that is an impulse I wish more of us had, a regret we may in decades come to be pained by. But how can such great differences be preserved, let alone considered? Who will pay for their maintenance? Who will house them, protect them and, dare I suggest, advance them?

This all comes to mind because I'm reading Melanie Thernstrom's The Pain Chronicles. Thernstrom is a fantastic writer. Her descriptions of suffering, of agony and of torment are beautiful, horrible, surprising and captivating. It began with a day of unusually vigorous swimming, provoking a fierce and persistent pain. From there she explores her attitude to pain, her fear and distrust and confusion about it. She records how across history humans have sought to understand, accept and deal with pain. She talks about how modern medicine upended religion and ritual and set us on a new path toward pain not as mystery but as conquerable enemy.

Except her own pain, which would not be subdued. Acute pain, we're learning, is not the same as chronic pain. For me, it cuts a little too close to home. I've often faced a range of illnesses, a stream of assaults, finding new flaws in my prematurely aged body (I remember feeling old in high school and not thinking that particularly troubling) with calendrical regularity. So I can sympathize with the impulse to ask "why?" In the past (or, at least, not in her non-religious present), we might have asked: Is God punishing us? Elevating us? Purifying us?

Hating on me? I'll confess I've asked the same. When one is (comparatively) energetic, but then feels a decline, it takes longer to get back to normal. It is flummoxing. It is, after all, a message of mortality, and I imagine very few people either contemplate it extensively or have the courage to. But, as the great narratives that elevated the cosmos over the individual have given way, there is an aspect to pain that is especially terrifying. That is for me and for Thernstrom, when the body breaks down just because it does, and no doctors or specialists can tell you (or her or me) why it is that one system isn't working like it should. Like it did.

Thernstrom explores the different ways in which the world's peoples perceived pain, and how pain was often at the core of piety. Often, pain was redemptive, transcendent -- it marked an opportunity for improvement or potential for salvation. So it is too bad that she barely talks about Islam. Doesn't Islam, its texts and histories, have something unique to add? At one point, she quotes from the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), but in the footnotes we find the reference is from Donald Meichenbaum's Cognitive-Behavior Modification. Somehow, I imagine, she could have done better. Muslims feature twice in the index, the last Prophet of Islam just that once and Islam not at all.

Thernstrom presumes the empirical attitude was born with Western science, and emerged against religion -- prior to the 1700s, there was almost no attempt to systemically understand the world outside us -- in part because she's only looking in one place. Can we, in this day and age, set out to write a story about the science and spirituality of suffering and not include a serious perspective on the lived culture of a huge number of the world's inhabitants? Are we still writing as if our narrative is the narrative of Judeo-Christian tradition? (Mostly the latter). But is it her fault? Where would she turn? Should she know to do so? I see the fault, but do not know where it begins.

Her very rich, and all the same very enjoyable title, lacks a perspective that could have tempered or challenged many of her conclusions. Muslim scientists pursued advances in math, chemistry, neurology, immunology, optics, opthalmology, physics, architecture, agriculture and myriad other fields. Their mentality cannot be assumed to mimic Western empiricism, but nevertheless one could fairly make the case that Islam's burst of creative inspiration helped feed Europe's revival. Of course, Islam was not, in and of itself, only on Earth to prepare the ground for another civilization. But cultures, like bodies, are interconnected systems. Too often we have refused to learn that when one part of the world is in pain, others are forced to share the misery. (The leg bone is connected to the hip bone...)

And this is why we must do more to preserve the contributions and perspectives of other religions and philosophies. By "we," I mean those of us in the humanities, if the humanities haven't been fatally undone by coldly economic utility. But I also speak to Muslims (these days, I suppose, I also have no choice but to speak for Muslims). We must make sure our heritage does not go missing from the wonderful histories of ideas, concepts and emotions of which The Pain Chronicles is one very excellent example. Because, at the heart of it, Melanie Thernstrom is asking a question about suffering -- an existential concern that is, not surprisingly, individualized. She and I are products of a time when individuality is far different even from what it was when our country was born.

We process pain through the lens of our self-perception.

How did empiricism exist without romanticism? Science without modernity? But they did, and perhaps we can mend some rifts by understanding how. The question of suffering appears in cultures and across places in different forms, shaped by the environments of the times. For the survivors of the Holocaust, those who perished in the camps and suffered pogroms in the centuries before, the question of God's abandonment of His people must have come up. Suffering is often collective. The question of black suffering is of course a deep one (for a Muslim perspective, Professor Sherman Jackson must be read).

And for Muslims more broadly, the question might be: What has gone wrong with the Muslim world, with Muslim communities and societies? Why have they, of late, been faced with so many trials and hardships, and achieved so many ostensible failures? Can Muslims even suffer individually, when the temptation is to assume our rigid, practically necrotic homogeneity? Partially, this is an absence of accurate information, a reliance on sources unfamiliar with Islam, sources thus unable to resist the simpler, uglier or more depressing narratives. Sources that may guess we have nothing to offer the world and so make us, like pain, invisible.

But there's also a rebuking reality about this question: What God is doing to us? With us? For us? Because there are many different kinds of pain: the pain that wears away at our bodies, or the pain that wears away at our selves, grinds us down and makes us wonder if we are somehow less than whole, flawed, doomed and cursed, left behind and watching the world move on and ahead. The pain of many little cuts, blows to the ego, to pride and to self-respect, a constant barrage of miniscule or muddled slights. These are the worries that continue to plague and sap too many Muslims, and many other minorities, and while it may not be easy to offer answers, we should preserve what thoughts the faith once produced and still offers. Or Muslims shall remain as they are: out of the conversation, past consideration and in agony to be so excluded.

 
 
 

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Watch The Linguists, a documentary about two really smart men who travel across the world to record dying languages because they cannot save them. They feel, express and implore, we should have: We ...
Watch The Linguists, a documentary about two really smart men who travel across the world to record dying languages because they cannot save them. They feel, express and implore, we should have: We ...
 
 
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08:16 PM on 11/03/2010
The reason for Muslim suffering is the fact that we sometimes isolate ourselves. In the US there are very few Muslim activists. There Muslims here are quiet when things happen that contradict Islamic values. I think that the world needs to see when we do stand up against in justices and that we help support our own, but when within our own people we are killing each other, what can people think of us? I love to practice Islam because I feel it has a love of values, in family, friends, neighbors and as a community. Islam of peace, not the one that spews hate or that forces itself on people. I see it in day to day, as a convert I am stared at and ousted in both communities. In western society and in Islamic society.

themuslimbutterfly.blogspot.com
10:40 PM on 11/02/2010
"It Hurts to Be Muslim, Too"

If it hurts, stop doing it.
No religion, no belief, no action should bring you pain.
If it does, that is your first clue that you are doing something wrong.
Re-examine your beliefs, not your soul.
08:19 PM on 11/03/2010
it's not the religion that is the cause. It's the people with in the religion. Setimes we fail to see that. WE make our own choices and say it is religion. You take the easy way by saying "stop doing it". Nothing in this life is easy. If we suffer, then maybe we should do something about it rather than complain.
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MohammedAbbasi
Co-Director, Association of British Muslims
08:12 PM on 10/29/2010
The answers we seek are within us all and we know it yet we remain attached to labels of this and that. The purpose of life is not to have faith - but KNOW
02:57 PM on 10/28/2010
Are we still writing as if our narrative is the narrative of Judeo-Christian tradition?
^^^
What's wrong with a Western writer doing that for a mostly Western audience? Maybe Muslims should lead by example and start accommodating non-Muslims.
09:15 PM on 10/29/2010
"Maybe Muslims should lead by example and start accommodating non-Muslims."

That is incorrect. Rephrase so it is more specific and accurate.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
02:41 PM on 10/28/2010
The pain I assumed Muslims felt was the lack of freedom. After the roman, ottoman empires you got the PUPPET Governments of the British, French and America

Your right to fight for freedom is called terrorism while these governments and PUPPETS control you OIL and your freedom. Your wealth from that OIL goes the the PUPPET Governments and not to the people.

I akin the extreme Muslims to freedom fighters, not fighting for the fun of it, but sacrificing their lives and the lives of others for a freedom the Muslims have rarely had, but surely deserve. That is the pain Muslims and World are feeling now and until that pain is stopped
09:46 PM on 10/28/2010
"I akin the extreme Muslims to freedom fighters, not fighting for the fun of it, but sacrificing their lives and the lives of others for a freedom the Muslims have rarely had, but surely deserve. That is the pain Muslims and World are feeling now and until that pain is stopped"

This only demonstrates your ignorance of history. These extreme muslims have been in power in the past, and there was nothing that even slightly resembled freedom while they were in charge.
12:45 AM on 11/07/2010
references? marshall hodgson is still the standard in the field today, but fred donner also has quite a few good works. you left me thinking that you didn't do much research on the brutality of muslims past or present, but maybe heard it somewhere. but i trust that you have and will continue, which is why i suggested MH and FD above. please don't tell me you were reading wikipedia. i go there sometimes just to mess up the info. it let's me know whether or not wiki-editors are really doing there job. cruel of me, isn't it? beats trolling.
i'm a little unsure of what you mean by "these extreme muslims". the current ones, or the extreme ones from the past? which ones specifically? i mean just a couple so we can all be talking about the same thing.
btw, calling someone out for ignorance is really a conversation killer. just demonstrate to him/her why you think they have their head up their ass, but don't tell them you think they have their head up their ass.
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Godfearing
Get Ready For NRA Takeover!
01:06 PM on 10/28/2010
Why do people from different religions hate each other's guts! Unfortunately, no one has an answer.
03:00 PM on 10/28/2010
Humans are hardwired for tribalism, religion is one way to define the tribe. Tribes are in constant competition with one another. Leftists and multiculturalists who try to circumvent this hardwiring have only opened up themselves and their tribe to subjugation and oblivion. It's ugly and horrible but that's the truth and it's behind a lot of the events in history and your everyday crime blotter.
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Godfearing
Get Ready For NRA Takeover!
11:49 AM on 10/29/2010
Jess: Thanks for the explanation!
08:45 AM on 10/28/2010
I mean, yes, if he really wants an answer to what God is doing with us etc...the Muslims will have to remain outside the conversation for the answers to those questions are not in the Quran. The answers are in the Holy Bible through the person of Jesus. You want to know about God, truth and our destiny look there.
09:35 AM on 10/28/2010
Actually, the answers you don't want to acknowledge are right there in the Quran - but to each his own.
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12:38 PM on 10/28/2010
Ya, but Mohammad was also personally involved in the slaughter of the innocent Banu Qurayza tribe where up to 900 unarmed men were slaughtered and their women and children enslaved. Not looking to that guy/religion for anything regarding peace or truth.
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gemini68
01:37 PM on 10/28/2010
If you would like to have an honest, respectful and open discourse you may want to leave your proselytizing by the wayside.
07:01 AM on 10/28/2010
Somewhat confused and confusing.
05:51 AM on 10/28/2010
What I got from this was a sort of self defeatist *why me?, why us?* attitude. The ills of the Muslim world today owe much to the corruption, nepotism and lack of justice in many Muslim majority countries. I can point the finger to Western imperialism as a major cause, but cannot deny that our governments are rotten to the core, and any attempt to set this right is clamped at its inception, with the help of agenda-based Western interference. Money is heard, poverty is silent, justice is only for those with influence or wealth - that's the truth today in a lot of Arab countries. How can you invent or create if you are not getting even enough money to feed your family? Was this our condition after Mohammed asws died? There was justice for all - the leaders were the most honest and the poorest of the people.

"And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient", 2:155

"Ye shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, ..." 3:186

"And if it were Our Will, We would have [destroyed you (mankind) all, and] made angels to replace you on the earth". 43:60
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messy
artist, writer, adventurer
08:43 AM on 10/28/2010
Western Imperialism as a main cause? NO! Islamic fundementalism is the cause, from the Wahabbis in the 18th century to Al Qaeda now.
09:16 AM on 10/28/2010
messy - just FYI - the US has to give the *OK* when any new president or leader in the Arab world is elected. Is this freedom or colonisation?
12:50 PM on 10/28/2010
No! the Muslim governance is secular, not wahahbi or even shari'ah! And, those non Muslims like yourself should under stand that that wahhabism has gotten a bad name from the west.
American invasions and killings in our lands and the funding and support of Muslim governments that run on their platform of secular law has cause an insurgency ten fold.
There would be no Al Maghrib Al qaeda or Al Shabaab; or Yemen and Saudi Al Qaeda or Pakistan Taliban if the Americans would have not funded, trained and educated our leaders to become secular and use brutal tactics to suppress us.
Now, with these insurgents have gain many areas and each is calling their terrorities emirates.
If the Americans would leave and we vote out the despotic leaders and bring in the shari'ah, there would be peace.
The American gov says no to the shari'ah, no to Islamic states and there goes the war between America and Islam.
The UN reports states that the most brutal govs are in Muslim lands under secular law. Women and human rights issues are massive and the people in our lands are fed up with this! We see these corrupted leaders with American agents, and our Islamic schools closed, masjids curtailed, secular schools and night clubs are being built, these are some of the causes of the wide spread insurgencies in Muslim lands and the Americans are there with there Africom and terror programs and the insurgents are fighting to restore Islam!
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12:24 PM on 10/28/2010
I can point the finger to Western imperialism as a major cause, but cannot deny that our governments are rotten to the core, and any attempt to set this right is clamped at its inception, with the help of agenda-based Western interference.
=================================

Your view of the agenda of the West is paranoid. Pay more attention to what Muslims are doing to Muslims and the role of Islamic dogma in that.

Mahmoud Taha, a Sudanese civil engineer, studied Islamic texts and came up with a solution for the problematic jihad definitions in the Medinan Koran. He published his peaceful and egalitarian interpretation of the Koran in a book, "The Second Message of Islam." He was hanged by the Sudanese government for his effort.

There is your problem. The gates of ijtihad are being kept closed by lethal force. By Islamists, not the West. As long as Islamists can get away with killing reformists, Islam will be in trouble as it is now.
02:38 PM on 10/28/2010
Paranoid? Lol. I grew up in the West, and I was as shocked as anyone to find out the extent of Western meddling in Muslim majority countries, which is happening till this day.

Islam is not in any trouble whatsoever per se - the West would like it to be the focus of hatred and abuse, because it is well known that if Muslims did agree to overcome their differences and joined together as one, there would be no power on Earth who could overcome them. That's what they're afraid of, and have been doing their best for decades to sow trouble and seed and support dictators among them. Islam is perfect - Muslims are not.
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cayuse
Soaring Eagle, soaring to Spirit from the ego self
02:58 PM on 10/28/2010
JUDGE THE TREE BY THE FRUIT IT BEARS

YEE with no sins, throw the first STONE

Christians have lost the WORD of Christ. Churches have dulled the essence of Christ to teach everyone to become HIM and not believe just in his name.
03:55 AM on 10/28/2010
Isn't extreme Islamism responsible for crushing ideas even before they take shape? Isn't extreme Islamism spreading like wild fire throughout the world? Isn't extreme Islamism and Saudi money responsible for bullying and crushing local tradition and replacing it with Wahhabism?
Now, when you are asking the reader to watch "The Linguists" are you implying that other cultures are not letting Islam take a hold?
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gemini68
01:39 PM on 10/28/2010
First of all- Islamism is not a word. Secondly I suggest you due a bit more educating of yourself about the RELIGION of Islam as opposed to extremist terrorists' IDEA of Islam- which are two very different things.
03:54 AM on 10/29/2010
You are on the internet buddy. At least you could look things up before you blather.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamism
Again, looks like you are not good with words, concepts or ideas which is blurring your thinking.You don't have to be a terrorist to be an extremist Islamist.
02:07 AM on 10/28/2010
Yeah I imagine it does I studied a little Muslim I have always respected it even when I didnt understand I can remember some of the guys I would talk to that would come by my parents house to tell me about all them wives you can have can the wives do the same thing and we would sit and talk about that forr hours I was not trying to be funny I just had a lot of questions and I would tell them looks like to me your faith is good but you left women out. I always keep an open mine about the religion and it brings on debate to no end kind of fun to talk about and study. What impressed me the most and gave me a lot of thought was Louis Farrakan and things he would say would stay with me for years alot of what he has spoken is still with me. I can remember a guy how brings the Last Call newspaper when I ask him something and he could not tell me I would tell him you need to call or write Mr.Louis Farrakan and get me an answer.
05:05 AM on 10/28/2010
You studied a little Islam, presumably - or did you study a diminutive Muslim person? ;)
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gemini68
01:41 PM on 10/28/2010
Louis Farrakhan is not - nor will he ever be- a source of education about Islam. The Nation of Islam itself (with the exception of Malcolm X who defected from the movement shortly before his assassination) has never truly been about Islam. What I would suggest you study is the religious text of Islam itself- The Qur'an.
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Uncle Bob
Darwin loves you.
02:03 AM on 10/28/2010
In the first paragraph, you lament how tragic it is unique languages and cultures in general are rapidly disappearing and it is sad.

This kind of addresses the rest of you post in a nutshell....I think it is sad, but I also think it is inevitable. Pandora's box has been opened, which is lightning communication, global trade and cooperation.....no culture can stay isolated for long, and no culture in the global net can remain unaffected. The eventual product of this is very very predictable.

It isn't like, say, biodiversity. There will be no world shattering destruction when the cultures blend together. In many ways, it will solve a lot of problems.
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messy
artist, writer, adventurer
08:46 AM on 10/28/2010
Most of the languages are derivitive of other languages and very few are actually isolates.

Spanish/Castillian is only very poorly spoken Portuguese and vice versa. Someone sad that a language is only a dialect with a flag. Take Dutch and Flemish. There's no difference whatsoever.
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TheWM
aka The Wrong Monkey
01:20 PM on 10/28/2010
"Spanish/Castillian is only very poorly spoken Portuguese and vice versa."

This may give the impression that the languages are mutually intelligible, which I don't believe is the case. Bilingual education and/or interpreters are necessary in order for Portugese speakers and Spanish speakers to communicate. If we're going to frame things that way we could say that Castilian, Catalan, Portuguese, French, Provençal, Sardinian, Romansh, Italian and Romanian-Moldavian are all just very, very poorly spoken Latin.

Or should I have said "Romanian and Moldavian" instead of "Romanian-Moldavian"? Should one refer to "Serbian and Croatian" or "Serbian and Croation"? In each case the major thing separating the two is that one is written in the Latin alphabet and the other in the Cyrillic alphabet.

Some would assert that Catalan is a Spanish dialect and Provençal a French dialect, others would counter that such assertions are not justified linguistically and that they reflect political tyranny of majorities within Spain and France.

"Take Dutch and Flemish. There's no difference whatsoever."

There are differences -- very minor ones, I will grant you that. Greater than the differences between American English and Canadian English, and smaller than the differences between American English and British English.

http://thewrongmonkey.blogspot.com/
12:37 AM on 10/28/2010
2) we have allowed ourselves to accept a hierarchy in Islam via scholarship and (some are guilty of this) religiosity where Islam has no such thing after the Prophet (pbuh). My meaning is that individual muslims need to do the best they can to develop their understanding of how to merge the teachings of the Infinite in His revealed book with our finite understanding and finite world presence. In simpler terms we need to use the gift that DEFINES our humanity and that is the mind - to think, ponder, discern, judge, and question EVERYTHING, critically thinking about everything we are doing that is keeping us from getting out of the trouble that BOTH we are bringing upon ourselves as well as that inflicted upon us by those who do not engage peacefully.

God does no wrong to any of His creations it is humanity (irrespective of faith) that brings upon itself suffering. The poor's due is with the rich, the oppressed must assert themselves against their oppressors, the ignorant must be raised by the educated. THIS is our test from God and we have only to struggle to enjoin with anyone to do good and to end that which is evil during our brief time here on earth.
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OtayPanky
You're welcome
09:27 AM on 10/28/2010
Muslim Arab American: My meaning is that individual muslims need to do the best they can to develop their understanding of how to merge the teachings of the Infinite in His revealed book with our finite understanding and finite world presence. In simpler terms we need to use the gift that DEFINES our humanity and that is the mind - to think, ponder, discern, judge, and question EVERYTHING, critically thinking about everything we are doing that is keeping us from getting out of the trouble that BOTH we are bringing upon ourselves as well as that inflicted upon us by those who do not engage peacefully.

---

Outstanding. Now multiply that by 1.4 billion Muslims and the Islamophobia will go away.

Multiply it by 6 billion, and the rest of our political and religious phobias will go away, too.
09:12 PM on 10/29/2010
F & F
12:21 AM on 10/28/2010
@rickru1 -- bro get a life... who wronged you to be so foaming at the mouth with hatred? calm down bro and 1) get an education so you may present some actual facts that will be consistent with the generally accepted knowledge of history and 2) perhaps you need to see some kind of counselor to dissipate the level of hatred and bile that clearly is pent up in you... please don't go postal on us

on a more serious note to the author ---- I'd like to say that - sorry for the candor - this was not a smooth read in that I understand - I believe - what you were trying to say but it was a struggle to to get to the main point. Without going into detail I wanted to get to at least this question that I believe will take care of the rest:

"What has gone wrong with the Muslim world?"

imho the central problem is in essence 2 things: 1) that we have lost touch with the Qur'anic teachings and principles and rather than truly understanding and following to the best of our ability that magnificent source of guidance directly, we defer to those who write *about* the source or to other sources that are peripheral. For the muslim who by definition believes in the authenticity of the Qur'an and chooses to act on/ actively understand its teachings then their view of this world will isA be seen through its prism.

continued
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09:22 AM on 10/28/2010
"What has gone wrong with the Muslim world?"

=====================================

Excellent post.

It is refreshing to read Muslims looking at their problems with an eye to improvement, rather than looking for someone else to blame.

More and more of them, like you, are coming to the conclusion that the Koran is the only reliable guide for Muslims. That the Sharia law is a poisonous interpretation of the Koran which at once offends non-Muslims and shackles Muslims to an outdated view of the world that promotes ideas they no longer believe in:

1) Inequality between the sexes

2) Restrictions on freedom of speech and conscience

3) Supremacy of Islam through jihad

4) A political role for Islam

Professional Islamists, mainly clerics, scholars and politicians, are fighting hard to maintain control of Islam through Sharia law. More Muslims every day realize that this effort is not in their best interest.

Join the anti-Sharia law reformers.

http://www.aifdemocracy.org/
12:09 AM on 11/07/2010
did you mean "coming to the conclusion that the Koran is NOT the only reliable guide for Muslims"? Muslim American Arab has a rather simplistic view of the complexities of a religious community of more than 2. Salafism is the anti-method method of interpretation. Salafism is spearheaded by self-made authorities who learned some classical arabic and think the whole system for 1400 years has gone awry. if only we could go back, before the muslim world made advancements in medicine, astronomy, physics, mathematics, theology, philosophy (OMG, islamic philosophy FTW!!) navigation, trade, and law, and humanism (they taught it to the europeans) we could all go back to our humble beginnings in the 7th century with the Quran and Sunnah, where the only problems we have are with the redneck bedouin arabs. oh, and the occasional war between families and friends. imagine that world for a minute.

However, Jan, I think you might like to watch this video:
http://www.rethinkingislamicreform.co.uk/video

sharia law is an abstraction, so to speak. the goal of islamic jurisprudence is to interpret what sharia (God's law for humanity according to muslims) should look like in the world. there is no nebulous of sharia anywhere. muslim scholars for the most part do not fight to maintain control of islam. non-experts toss the word 'sharia' around, but need to realize that they've been played for fools by professional liars...eh hem...politicians. the 4 points you made are arational guesses.
10:42 PM on 10/27/2010
One might also ask why limit it to thinking that begins in the 700s, and not spend some time on the great thinkers that came before then? The lost history that the Muslims of the time studied and applied their names to? Math, physics, astronomy, architecture, medicine, art, music poetry, dance etc. all that stuff that existed far before Islam or Christianity? Vedic culture (to name the still thriving one), Sumerian, Egyptian, Chinese etc. etc. etc. Breaking out of the supposedly chosen cultures of "THE book" to the rest of the world who were advancing human culture while the bookish folk were wandering in the deserts?
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messy
artist, writer, adventurer
08:49 AM on 10/28/2010
"Vedic culture (to name the still thriving one), Sumerian, Egyptian, Chinese etc. etc. etc. "

Chinese? are you saying the Chinese culture is extinct? The people in Shanghai would be interested to hear more about that.
09:52 AM on 10/28/2010
I'd say the people of Shanghai would agree, if you know, their government would let them.