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Harris Zafar

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Confronting Pamela Geller (Updated With Response)

Posted: 07/13/2012 8:14 am

"As a Jew, I am offended to my core. Muslims have no right to invoke Moses and Abraham. This is a delegitimization of Judaism. It is offensive and vile. And while Jesus is not my guy, the same thing goes for him. It is a delegitimization of Christianity. These are not Muslim prophets."

2012-07-12-pamelageller_s640x427.jpgThis typical quote from Pamela Geller perfectly represents her perplexing manner of argumentation and the blatant ignorance deeply rooted in her work. In this particular case, Geller takes exception with Islam's acceptance of the prophethood of Abraham, Moses and Jesus Christ. Whereas most people view common beliefs as a means of building bridges of kinship between Jews, Christians and Muslims, Geller feels Muslim's belief in such prophets is "offensive and vile." Apparently she feels that Jews have exclusive rights to believe in Moses and Abraham. Paradoxically, her ignorance has no problem granting Christians the right to invoke Moses and Abraham without delegitimizing Judaism.

Accustomed to providing responses to substantive attacks against Islam, I found it challenging to determine the appropriate manner in which to address the attacks levied against Islam by Geller, as her work is mostly outrageous and irrational. She does not purport to be a scholar of Islam, nor does she possess academic or experiential credentials that provide any unique insight into Islam. Her self-education about Muslims began after 9/11, when she "felt guilty that I didn't know who had attacked my country." Deceived by the false premise that Islam attacked this great nation on 9/11, Geller searched for reasons to loathe the Islamic faith, seeking education from those most antagonistic of Islam, such as Bat Ye'or (pseudonym for Gisèle Littman, a Jewish-Egyptian French writer who imputes Christian and Jewish suffering to the theological beliefs of Islam), Ibn Warraq (pseudonym for a Pakistani author well known for writing about leaving Islam) and Daniel Pipes (American author who extensively criticizes Islam but whom Geller eventually rejected due to his belief in the existence of a moderate form of Islam).

Rather than relying on scholarship for substantive arguments against Islam, Geller often resorts to shock-value through outlandish statements. She has falsely claimed that President Obama is a Muslim with the aim of fostering America's submission to Islam; Arabic is not a language but "the spearhead of an ideological project that is deeply opposed to the United States"; Hitler and Nazism were inspired by Islam (therefore "devout Muslims should be prohibited from military service"); that "Islam is the most anti-Semitic, genocidal ideology in the world"; called for the removal of the Dome of the Rock from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem; bought bus ads offering Muslims an opportunity to leave Islam; and called for boycotts of both Campbell's soup and Butterball turkeys for offering a certified halaal food line.

Her claims are so bizarre that one struggles to understand whether they are worthy of a response. Indeed, one can understand why Charles Johnson, who runs the blog Little Green Footballs, where Geller used to write, said about her: "That would be Ms. Geller. She has a very long record of absolute lunacy, mixed with bigotry and racism and I am far from the only person to point this out."

Yet, hidden beneath the rubble of vitriolic attacks, campaigns, rallies and statements lies tangible attacks against the very teachings of Islam, and it is imperative to address these attacks, as they form the foundation upon which Geller attempts to smear Islam. Most commonly, Geller draws attention to the writings of Robert Spencer in her allegations against Islam. This duo works together extensively in order to attack the Islamic Faith, commonly highlighted by Geller's attention-getting statements.

Apostasy

"Apostasy is the most egregious of Islamic crimes." --Pamela Geller

One common allegation the two have advanced together is that Islam prescribes a death penalty for apostasy. They cite real-life troubling accounts of people (e.g. Iranian Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani) punished for converting from Islam to another religion. This issue is real and undeniably must be addressed, but on this point let it be clear that there is nothing contained within the Holy Quran -- the highest authoritative source in Islam -- that sanctions any punishment for apostasy.

The Quran contains at least 10 verses about those who leave Islam, none of which sanction death in response. Exemplifying the Quran's principles, the Prophet Muhammad never ordered any person to be killed for apostasy. In fact, in his peace treaty with Meccans, his acceptance of the condition that any Muslim recanting their faith be allowed to return to Mecca unharmed demonstrates that no punishment exists for apostasy, as he would never accept anything that went against the sharia.

The oft-cited proponent of radical interpretations of Islam is the influential cleric and founder of the Pakistani political party Jamaat-e-Islami, Abul Ala Maududi, who wrote, "In our domain we neither allow any Muslim to change his religion nor allow any other religion to propagate its faith." He believed the Quran's injunction that there can be no compulsion in religion did not apply to Muslims, who must be compelled to remain a Muslim. Sadly, present-day scholars (e.g., Dr. Bilal Philips) continue to advance this preposterous theory.

Islam affords all people -- believers and non-believers -- freedom of conscience and religion, with no threat of coercion in matters of faith. God's universal prohibition from religious compulsion came with no qualifiers nor exceptions and must be applied to complementary Quranic verses 10:109 and 88:22-23, where God instructs Prophet Muhammad that he is not appointed to be a keeper over the people. Not even the Prophet was permitted to coerce his people to believe. The Promised Messiah and founder of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community also condemned any punishment for apostasy and any violence to spread faith. He wrote, "Religion is worth the name only so long as it is in consonance with reason. If it fails to satisfy that requisite, if it has to make up for its discomfiture in argument by handling the sword, it needs no other argument for its falsification. The sword it wields cuts its own throat before reaching others."

Taqiyya

"Deception, taqiya, and lies are essential to advancing Islam (according to the unflushable Koran.)" --Pamela Geller

Another common allegation Geller makes -- with references to the writings of Spencer -- is that Muslims engage in the practice of taqiyya, which she defines as the practice of lying to non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam (though most Sunni and Shiite scholars define it as concealing one's beliefs explicitly to avoid physical harm). She levies this allegation against any Muslims speaking for peace, reconciliation or rationality. This exposes her inherent hypocrisy, as she criticizes Muslims for not being loyal to the U.S., but when they do pledge allegiance to the U.S., she claims it is deception (as she did with our Muslims for Loyalty efforts).

As with most of her accusations against Islam, there is indeed truth to be found in the writings and actions of some fanatics, but Geller conflates their words with Islam. Advancing the scholarship of Robert Spencer, she advances the theory that deception and dishonesty are permitted to Muslims to advance their faith, although no verse from the Quran is provided as a clear instruction for this practice.

As part of its effort to revive the teachings of Islam, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community entirely rejects the claim that Islam permits deception or lying. Quite to the contrary, the Quran clearly articulates honesty as incumbent upon Muslims when it says, "And confound not truth with falsehood nor hide the truth, knowingly" as well as "Most hateful is it in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do." Muslims have also been warned repeatedly to avoid language that may have double meanings in any situation and to, rather, employ straightforward and clear speech when dealing with members of our own household, neighbors or even enemies.

Allah continues in the Quran by instructing Muslims to be truthful even if doing so will harm them, their family or the community.

"O ye who believe! Be strict in observing justice, and be witnesses for Allah, even through it be against yourselves or against parents and kindred. Whether he be rich or poor, Allah is more regardful of them both that you are. Therefore follow not low desires so that you may be able to act equitably. And if you conceal the truth or evade it, then remember that Allah is well aware of what you do."

Thus is every Muslim instructed to bear true testimony even if it is against themself, other Muslims, children, parents, kin, etc. Even if our honor or property is at stake, we are required to be fair, just and honest. The very idea that believers may legitimately deceive unbelievers when under pressure is patently absurd and not grounded in the teachings of the Quran.

Partnership With Robert Spencer

Geller's modus operandi is to use head-turning statements to merely draw attention to the message of Robert Spencer. The two of them co-founded an organization (Stop Islamization of America) whose actions the Anti-Defamation League concluded "promotes a conspiratorial anti-Muslim agenda under the guise of fighting radical Islam."

Together, they produce a pair very similar to that of Abu Lahab and his wife, as described in the Quran. Abu Lahab (literally "Father of Flame") was the nickname given to the Prophet's uncle, 'Abd-ul-'Uzza, because of his fiery temper and reprehensible stance toward the Prophet. He made every effort to follow Prophet Muhammad everywhere and dissuade people from seeing or paying any attention to him, calling him a mad man and liar. While Abu Lahab made efforts to obstruct Muhammad's true message from people, his wife would make outrageous efforts such as scattering thorns and even garbage on the path on which the Prophet walked to either hurt him or impede his progress. More than anything, though, she was known for her slander and defamation of the Prophet.

Driven by their fiery hatred of Islam and its Prophet, Spencer and Geller have unwittingly become the modern day Abu Lahab and his wife. Fittingly, Chapter 111 of the Quran (entitled al-Lahab) predicts that the plotting of such nefarious enemies of Islam would appear but ultimately fail miserably, and their wealth will not avail them.

Like Abu Lahab's wife, Geller will continually attempt to obstruct any effort to spread the truth of Islam. She expressed this commitment recently on two of her blogs when she targeted me with the following words: "Yes, Zafar, there are always going to be truth tellers in this world exposing these lies. Yes, Zafar, there are always going to be free men fighting for freedom of speech, freedom of conscience and individual rights. Yes, Zafar, I will fight you in the media, I will fight you on the billboards, I will fight you on radio. We will never give up."

If Geller is not herself committing taqiyya here, she has become hysterical with delusions of grandeur, coupled with paranoia of an imaginary global conspiracy.

Ms. Geller, if you truly want to "fight" us with any type of honor and sense, lay aside your crass tactics and put your words into action. It's time to publicly end your absurdity and fiery propaganda, which is no match for the truth of Islam, as revived by the Promised Messiah and rightly guided Reformer, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian. Prove that you mean it when you say you are willing to fight us anywhere. Prove I am wrong that you are nothing without the likes of Robert Spencer or David Yerushalmi by your side. You will find the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community just as willing to debate you in public, as long as you are honest about this offer and not practicing deception.

Originally published in the Summer 2012 edition of The Muslim Sunrise.

_________________________________________________


The Huffington Post received a response to Harris Zafar from Pamela Geller, which was published below in full on July 16, 2012.


Confronting Harris Zafar

By Pamela Geller

Typical of the dishonesty and disingenuousness of Harris Zafar's attack piece on me in the Huffington Post is his opening claim that "Geller takes exception with Islam's acceptance of the prophethood of Abraham, Moses and Jesus Christ." He complains that "paradoxically, her ignorance has no problem granting Christians the right to invoke Moses and Abraham without delegitimizing Judaism." He does not mention that while Christianity acknowledges the Jewishness of Moses, Abraham, and the other Jewish prophets, Islam denies it: "No; Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a Christian; but he was a Muslim and one pure of faith; certainly he was never of the idolaters." (Quran 3:67).

Zafar never explains that Islam doesn't just "accept the prophethood of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus Christ," but completely recasts them as Muslim prophets who decisively rejected the basic tenets of Judaism and Christianity: the Quran even depicts Jesus rejecting the core Christian belief of the divinity of Christ (5:116). Islam thereby completely delegitimizes Judaism and Christianity and presents itself as the true religion of the Biblical prophets -- but instead of admitting this, Harris Zafar blames me for noting it.

And in the rest of his piece, he doesn't get any more honest. While affecting a posture of wounded sanctimony, he levies vicious attacks against my work ("mostly outrageous and irrational") and claims to know my motives: "Geller searched for reasons to loathe the Islamic faith." He is no more objective regarding others he identifies as my influences, particularly the world-renowned historian Bat Ye'or, whom he characterizes as "a Jewish-Egyptian French writer who imputes Christian and Jewish suffering to the theological beliefs of Islam," without mentioning that the Muslims who cause Christian and Jewish suffering invoked the theological beliefs of Islam to explain and justify their actions.

  • Zafar then offers a list of what he calls my "outlandish statements," which he makes outlandish by misrepresenting, distorting, and outright lying about.
  • "She has falsely claimed that President Obama is a Muslim with the aim of fostering America's submission to Islam": actually, I have never claimed Obama was a Muslim, and just recently published an article in which I pointed out that "the reason why people think Obama is a Muslim is because of how he acts" -- in other words, because of his policies, which have been consistently pro-Islam, not because of his personal faith.
  • Zafar says I claimed that "Arabic is not a language but 'the spearhead of an ideological project that is deeply opposed to the United States.'" In reality, I have never said that "Arabic is not a language"; Zafar has to resort to outright lies to make his case that my work is "outrageous and irrational." Here is the actual quote: "Arabic is not just another language like French or Italian, it is the spearhead of an ideological project that is deeply opposed to the United States." And who said it? Not I, but Mark Steyn. That's right: so desperate is Zafar to smear me that he is attributing statements by other people to me.
  • Zafar claims that I say that "Hitler and Nazism were inspired by Islam (therefore 'devout Muslims should be prohibited from military service')." In reality, that quote comes from an article I wrote that touched on the Fort Hood jihad murderer and the devout Muslim faith of jihadists worldwide. Never do I say that devout Muslims should be excluded from the military because of Hitler, but because so many devout Muslims commit violent attacks against infidels without any warning.
  • And were Hitler and the Nazis inspired by Islam? Don't believe me, believe Eichmann's assistant, Dieter Wisliczeny, who testified at Nuremberg that the Mufti of Jerusalem was a central figure in the planning of the genocide of the Jews: "The Grand Mufti has repeatedly suggested to the Nazi authorities -- including Hitler, von Ribbentrop and Himmler -- the extermination of European Jewry. ... The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan."
  • Zafar says that I say that "Islam is the most anti-Semitic, genocidal ideology in the world." Maybe Zafar can name another ideology whose founder, leader and guide said something as anti-Semitic and genocidal as this, but I can't top this from Muhammad, Zafar's beloved prophet: "The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him." (Sahih Muslim 6985).
  • Zafar says I "called for the removal of the Dome of the Rock from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem," and I stand by that. But once again he doesn't give you all the information: I never said it should be removed by violence, and I said this in response to repeated jihadi attacks on Muslims at the Temple Mount. Zafar never bothers to condemn those attacks or even mention them.
  • Zafar says I "bought bus ads offering Muslims an opportunity to leave Islam." In reality, my bus ads offered help to ex-Muslims threatened with death for leaving Islam -- help Zafar's group has never offered, despite his claim to reject Islam's death penalty for apostasy.
  • Zafar says I "called for boycotts of both Campbell's soup and Butterball turkeys for offering a certified halaal food line." In reality, I called for the Campbell's boycott not because of that halal line as such but because Campbell's was using a Hamas-linked Muslim Brotherhood group, the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) to certify its halal line. Regarding Butterball, my complaint was that all its turkeys are halal, but aren't labelled as such, so consumers can't make informed choices.


After all those distortions, fabrications, and lies about my writings and activities, it's no wonder that Zafar says that my "claims are so bizarre that one struggles to understand whether they are worthy of a response." But only by dishonesty can Zafar get there.

Zafar then goes on to claim that "one common allegation the two [Robert Spencer and I] have advanced together is that Islam prescribes a death penalty for apostasy" -- as if we made this up. Then he claims that "there is nothing contained within the Holy Quran -- the highest authoritative source in Islam -- that sanctions any punishment for apostasy," and that "the Quran contains at least 10 verses about those who leave Islam, none of which sanction death in response." He never mentions that all the schools of Islamic law mandate death for apostasy, and that many Muslims base this on Quran 4:89, which tells Muslims to kill those who "emigrate in the way of God" -- that is, become Muslim and move to a Muslim land -- "if they turn their backs," i.e., leave Islam.

Then Zafar claims that "Muhammad never ordered any person to be killed for apostasy," but ignores that Muhammad said "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, then kill him" (Bukhari 9.84.57). Nor does Zafar mention that in one tradition, a Muslim leader, Muadh Jabal, refused to sit down until an apostate brought before him had been killed "in accordance with the decision of Allah and of His Apostle." He doesn't mention the Tafsir al-Qurtubi, a classic and thoroughly mainstream exegesis of the Quran, which says:

Scholars disagree about whether or not apostates are asked to repent. One group say that they are asked to repent and, if they do not, they are killed. Some say they are given an hour and others a month. Others say that they are asked to repent three times, and that is the view of Malik. Al-Hasan said they are asked a hundred times. It is also said that they are killed without being asked to repent.

Zafar claims that "no punishment exists for apostasy" -- in other words, he thinks that all the schools of Islamic law and all the sects of Islam other than Zafar's own Ahmadi sect, which is violently persecuted as heretical by Muslims in Pakistan and Indonesia, got Islamic teaching on apostasy wrong, and only his group has gotten it right. He claims that the death penalty for apostasy is an example of "radical interpretations of Islam" and implies it originated with the twentieth century Islamic leader Maududi -- but he must know about these traditions of Muhammad and understandings of the Quran, even if he rejects them. Thus this is more evidence of his dishonesty.

By now it is clear that Zafar's words on taqiyya, Islamic religious deception, can't be trusted any more than the rest of what he claims. He again acts as if I have originated the idea that it is "the practice of lying to non-Muslims in order to advance the cause of Islam" and claims that "no verse from the Quran is provided" in my writings or Spencer's "as a clear instruction for this practice." In reality, Spencer has written this:

Qur'an 3:28 warns believers not to take unbelievers as "friends or helpers" (َأَوْلِيَا -- a word that means more than casual friendship, but something like alliance), "unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them." This is a foundation of the idea that believers may legitimately deceive unbelievers when under pressure. The word used for "guard" in the Arabic is tuqātan (تُقَاةً), the verbal noun from taqiyyatan -- hence the familiar term taqiyya.

The renowned Qur'an commentator Ibn Kathir says that the phrase "unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them" means that "believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers" may "show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, 'We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, 'The Tuqyah [taqiyya] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection." While many Muslim spokesmen today maintain that taqiyya is solely a Shi'ite doctrine, shunned by Sunnis, the great Islamic scholar Ignaz Goldziher points out that while it was formulated by Shi'ites, "it is accepted as legitimate by other Muslims as well, on the authority of Quran 3:28." The Sunnis of Al-Qaeda practice it today.

After that, Zafar's hit piece gets really bizarre: he likens Robert Spencer and me to Abu Lahab and his wife, early foes of Muhammad "driven by their fiery hatred of Islam and its Prophet." Zafar says that "fittingly, Chapter 111 of the Quran (entitled al-Lahab) predicts that the plotting of such nefarious enemies of Islam would appear but ultimately fail miserably, and their wealth will not avail them." Once again, he whitewashes Islam: Zafar doesn't mention that that chapter says that Abu Lahab and his wife are burning in hellfire.

Zafar ends his crudely deceptive and dishonest screed by claiming that I am "practicing deception" and saying he wants to debate me. The worst part about his piece is that Zafar's Ahmadi brethren are being viciously persecuted by Muslims who deem them heretics. I have spoken out in their defense, and instead of thanking me, Zafar sides with his persecutors. He should be debating the mainstream Muslims whom he claims have misunderstood Islam, not me. But clearly he is suffering from a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome.

Pamela Geller is the publisher of AtlasShrugs.com and the author of the WND Books title "Stop the Islamization of America: A Practical Guide to the Resistance."

 

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07:26 AM on 08/03/2012
Pamela Geller heavily bases her claims about Islam and Muslims on the writings of her closest ally, Robert Spencer. However, Spencer is currently hiding his real motivations, particularly his perceived vested interests as a Catholic.

Robert Spencer wasn’t always so secretive about this. As a result of an interview he gave to the Washington Times in 2003, Spencer is on record as publicly admitting that his anti-Islam propaganda is heavily motivated by his own religious fundamentalism, specifically his belief that Islam is the (Catholic) "Church's chief rival in terms of religion". See: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/dec/1/20031201-091332-2655r/?page=all#pagebreak

So it would be very unwise to believe a single word that Robert Spencer says about Islam and Muslims, because he is not exactly being honest, accurate or objective in his claims. He is doing this deliberately, motivated by his agenda for the dominance of the Catholic Church. In a nutshell, Spencer is committing “taqiyya”(according to his own warped definition of the term) on behalf of Catholicism.

Which also means that Pamela Geller herself is aiding and abetting Robert Spencer’s deception.
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Floyd Miller
10:33 PM on 08/02/2012
Pam Geller has no standing to discuss religion of any kind. She is a disciple of Ayn Rand (she calls her blog "Atlas Shrugged"), Rand was the most atheistic person ever, calling Christianity the "kindergarten of Communism" and faith the worst vice of mankind. Geller must suffer from Munchausen's. She is not to be believed in anything religious. She probably hopes to start religious wars that would wipe out all religions.
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11:25 PM on 08/16/2012
Spot on. I think her understanding of Ayn Rand and objectivisim comes from cliffs notes.
02:16 AM on 07/30/2012
There is a factual, accurate report readily available that refutes the rabid far-right rantings of Ms. Geller and her ilk.

I highly recommend you read "Fear, Inc." to balance the fear-mongering.

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/08/islamophobia.html

“Fear Inc: Exposing the Islamophobia Network in America,” points to seven foundations that together have contributed over $42 million in support of this campaign bent on exploiting the fear and ignorance of Americans about Islam after 9/11."

http://peace-catalyst.net/blog/post/fear--inc-
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03:24 AM on 07/19/2012
While the religion of ROP keeps giving
http://news.yahoo.com/uk-police-accuse-3-pakistan-terror-training-005908497.html
Three British Muslims - including a convert who was featured in a documentary about radical Islam and a former London police support officer - have been charged with traveling to Pakistan for terror training, police said early Thursday.

And Ahmadis in Pakistan shunned and persecuted:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/jul/08/higgs-boson-pakistan-scientist
Higgs boson physicist shunned in Pakistan

Still Mr Zafar's highest priority is condemning Pamela who is fighting to expose the very forces that are oppressing his sect and endangering all of us.
12:01 AM on 07/19/2012
Geller's arguments are caught up in word jugglery. If she actually understood the meaning of the word "Muslim" as it is defined in the Quran and by Muslims themselves, she would not be making such ignorant statements about Jesus, Abraham and Mohammed. However debating a bigot is usually a waste of time.
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03:52 AM on 07/19/2012
Talk is cheaper than dirt and apparently that is all what you can do. You also arranged you getaway in forehand. Shame.

So why don't you take this great opportunity to tell us about how this word is defined in the koran, and where Pamela was wrong?! Go ahead!
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Doug Sandlin
We See The World Not As It Is But As We Are
05:39 PM on 07/21/2012
I'm an atheist, but I'll take a shot at it.

Islam is a term meaning submission, specifically, submission to the will of God -- and, even more specifically, the actions and activities comprised in doing this (i.e. for Muslims, the pillars of Islam -- prayer, fasting, charity, etc.).

For Muslims, a Muslim is simply a person who is engaged in the activities which comprise Islam -- submitting to the will of God.

And so, a Muslim can be any person who follows the religion of Islam, *or* anyone who does, or has, "submitted to the will of God"; anyone who is attempting to do good, with their actions and their lives.

That's why, and how, Muslims can say that Abraham, Moses and Jesus were "Muslim" -- because, according to the general definition of that term, they were people who were "submitted to the will of God" in a fairly major way -- an assertion with which most Jews and Christians would likely agree.

I've discussed this with Muslim friends, and they agree that these definitions are correct.
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Talossa
Liberal. Pro-Israel. Recovering atheist.
11:57 PM on 07/18/2012
If you want the religion of Abraham without the "death penalty for apostasy", try joining the Jews or the Christians.
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Abdul-Halim Vazquez
07:03 PM on 07/20/2012
Deuteronomy 13
[6] "If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, `Let us go and serve other gods,' which neither you nor your fathers have known,
[7] some of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other,
[8] you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him;
[9] but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
[10] You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
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Doug Sandlin
We See The World Not As It Is But As We Are
05:40 PM on 07/21/2012
You make it sound as those the idea that apostasy should carry the death penalty is universal, for Muslims.

That's not even remotely true.
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Talossa
Liberal. Pro-Israel. Recovering atheist.
08:46 PM on 07/22/2012
I have no problem with a liberal, westernized, Christianized form of Islam, as long as it is honest about its differences with the religion it emerged from.
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06:14 PM on 07/18/2012
What crime has Pamela done to deserve for religious people to call for her to be k!11ed and tortured? This is what is happening to those who dare to use their freedom of speech against religion. We are back in the dark ages.

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/death-threats/
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Wf Hun
04:09 PM on 07/18/2012
-Leadership is the problem all religions and non-religions must address. There is a lot of bad leadership in so many things worldwide, including Islam.
-Violence emerges from so many places and religions, right now most strongly from those claiming Islam as their reason for violence.
-Religious leaders try to delegitimize other religions; Islam does not escape this; it demotes Jesus Christ from son of God and part of the Holy Trinity to a prophet, striking at the heart of Christianity.
-Religious leaders who use blasphemy as a way to pummel non-believers engage in compulsion.
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ILoveTheUSofA
BREAKING NEWS: There is no God.
07:50 AM on 07/18/2012
"The original hit piece was written by an Ahmadi -- yes, the same sect that is being slaughtered by Muslims in Muslim countries -- Harris Zafar, an Ahmadi spokesman who has been itching to "debate" me in defense of Islam. And why does Zafar want to debate me? I am not killing his people. I am not urging that his people be killed. Why doesn't he debate Ahmed Rehab or some other Islamic supremacist? I am fighting for his right to live -- what is he fighting with me for?"

- Pamela Geller

How about answering her question, Zafar?

And when Ahmadiyya Muslims are being persecuted by mainstream Muslims for what they consider "apostasy," why are you trying to pretend that Islam in general "affords all people -- believers and non-believers -- freedom of conscience and religion?" Don't you want to solve the problem of Islamic persecution - which includes persecution of the Ahmadiyya Muslims? How can anyone expect to solve a problem without first admitting that the true causes of it? Geller isn't persecuting any Ahmadiyya Muslims. Other Muslims are, in accordance with Islamic doctrine on apostasy which Geller and Spencer oppose and speak out against.
02:41 PM on 07/18/2012
IloveTheUSofA; I infer from your tag line (Breaking News: There is no God) that you are an atheist. If am mistaken I apologize in advance. Assuming my presumption is correct, then the problem is that you probably do not understand the importance of religion in one's life and in general for society. The problem is that all religions including Islam and Christianity do not currently exist in its original form. The teachings of Christianity have resulted in total dissociation from religion in the western countries and people have become more materialistic without any fear for afterlife. Similarly teachings of Islam have been distorted b majority and unfortunately Islam is being presented as "extremists" religion. The fact of the matter is that both religions were sent from God, however, with the paucity of time has not remain in its original form. It is interesting that almost all religions of world are waiting for a “Massiah” and reformer who will restore the original teachings of religion. We Ahmadiyya believes that that Reformer has already appeared and we present to the World the simple formula of Peace and harmony through our slogan “Love for All, Hatred for None. We reject any form of violence. We believe in separation of church and state. We believe in empowerment of women. We believe that religion plays an important role in one’s life here and hereafter and help to make the people good and loyal citizens. Our persecution is due as we are swimming against the tide.
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ILoveTheUSofA
BREAKING NEWS: There is no God.
03:10 PM on 07/18/2012
But nothing you have said provides any answers to the questions in my comment, and I don't understand why any Ahmadi would support Zafar's attempt to deride Geller and Spencer for speaking the truth about apostasy in mainstream Islam, while making ludicrously false statements that Islam in general "affords all people -- believers and non-believers -- freedom of conscience and religion" - when Ahmadis are being persecuted by mainstream Islam and its doctrine on apostasy.
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Talossa
Liberal. Pro-Israel. Recovering atheist.
07:15 PM on 07/18/2012
> We reject any form of violence.

Do you reject the violence that resulted from Muhammad's edict that "two religions cannot coexist in Arabia," and the violence that carried Islam from the Arabian desert to the Pyrenees and the Himalayas?
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Abdul-Halim Vazquez
10:57 PM on 07/17/2012
What is both funny and sad about the discussion in the comments section is that some Islamophobes are frequently calling on Muslims to reform Islam. And then along comes Harris who tries to present an argument against a death penalty for apostasy which is made terms that other Muslims have the potential to find persuasive. And then it seems like the same people are upset because they'd prefer to believe their boogeyman image of Muslims rather than believe Islam or Muslims have the potential for change.

In anycase, the rulings on apostasy are actually more varied than many people realize:

http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.com/

There are even several top figures associated with al-Azhar (along with many scholars from variety of eras) who have said that simple apostasy shouldn't receive any temporal punishment
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Damn Damien
Naturally!
03:43 AM on 07/18/2012
"What is both funny and sad about the discussion in the comments section is that some Islamophobes are frequently calling on Muslims to reform Islam. And then along comes Harris..."
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If you think you or Harris are the kind of reformed Muslims we have in mind, then you are highly mistaken.

Harris' talents at reforming Islam can be judged by the fact that he is accosting those who side with him against his persecutors -- aside from the fact that he deliberately twists facts to misrepresent others.

If you wish to tackle the issue of apostasy, take your case to the mainstream scholars at Al-Azhar, and the 80% or whatever of Egyptians who know the truth. Shame on him for slinging mud and then hiding.
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Abdul-Halim Vazquez
10:03 AM on 07/18/2012
If you wish to tackle the issue of apostasy, take your case to the mainstream scholars at Al-Azhar,
-------------------
from
http://apostasyandislam.blogspot.com/

Shaykh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi
[Grand Imam of al-Azhar since 1996]

"Shaykh Tantawi's ruling on the subject of a Muslim apostasizing has certainly shed new light on this subject, while making the non-Muslims realise that Islam is a religion of moderation. To Shaykh Tantawi, a Muslim who renounced his faith or turned apostate should be left alone as long as he does not pose a threat or belittle Islam. If the Muslims were forced to take action against the apostate, he said it should NOT be because he or she had given up the faith but because he or she had turned out to be an enemy or a threat to Islam. Shaykh Tantawi, in his views, shows clearly how simple and moderate Islam is, a religion that is tolerant and not coercive on anybody. Shaykh Tantawi repeatedly stresses the need for Muslims to acquire traditional Islamic knowledge as well as the modern ones so that they could add to the strength of the Muslim community to defend the religion." [Introduction of Grand Imams of Al-Azhar]

Islamic Research Department, Al-Azhar University

"The Islamic Research Department of Al-Azhar University has called the penalty for apostasy as null and void and has said that the ways of repentance are open for the whole life. ... So an apostate can repent over his mistake anytime during his life and there would be no
03:05 PM on 07/18/2012
If we are saying that there is no punishment for "apostacy" based on Quranic teachings why dont you support us. Instead you are forcing us to refer to the "distorted" teachnigs of Islam as presented by Al-Azhar.
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ILoveTheUSofA
BREAKING NEWS: There is no God.
08:36 AM on 07/18/2012
1) I'm not an "Islamophobe," I'm simply an Islamo-realist.

2) I have never called on Muslims to reform Islam. After 1400 years, we understand that Islam is not reformable - and many ex-Muslims, such as Ibn Warraq, who probably understand Islam better than anyone else in the world, have said the same thing.

3) If Zafar were presenting "an argument against a death penalty for apostasy," why would he call it "Confronting Pamela Geller" and publish it in the Huffington Post? Do you think a major factor keeping the Islamic death penalty for apostasy in place would be the large number of Huffington Post readers who want to preserve the Islamic death penalty for apostasy?

4) Your linked article makes no distinction between rulings and opinions. Nearly all of them appear to be opinions, not "rulings." The simple fact is that all major schools of Islamic law still prescribe the death penalty for apostasy.

5) If Zafar AGREES with Geller and Spencer that the Islamic death penalty for apostasy is not appropriate, then why did he publish an essay "confronting" Geller, unjustly deriding her for speaking truthfully about apostasy in Islam?
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Doug Sandlin
We See The World Not As It Is But As We Are
05:48 PM on 07/21/2012
Regarding your point #5 -- because Pamela Geller spins all of her assertions about Islam and Muslims in a way which promotes her fundamental agenda of getting other people to hate Islam, too.

This is not at all the same as rationally stating that that the tiny percentage of Muslims who favor the death penalty for apostasy should be opposed (which, of course, they should be).

I'm an atheist, and I completely oppose Pamela Geller's approach for one simple reason:

She purposefully spreads false information about Islam and Muslims without concern for the effects of her lies.

Example:

Everything she has said about the Islamic Center in lower Manhattan, and its founders, including incorrectly creating and promoting the error-based label "Mosque at Ground Zero" (it's neither a mosque, nor at "Ground Zero"), the false idea that it's a "victory mosque" (it's a peace-oriented community center open to all), and the ridiculous assertion that founder Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is connected with extremism (he's a peaceful Sufi Muslim, who has been a respected interfaith leader in NYC, nationally and internationally, for decades).

She lies - blatantly.

That's the problem.
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tallen
panem et circenses
08:22 PM on 07/17/2012
A question for Mr Zafar.

If Pamela Geller were dropped off in say...Saudi Arabia...Egypt...Libya...Yemen, etc.

How long do you think it would be before she was killed for her views, her religion, her gender?
03:01 PM on 07/18/2012
We are not sure about Saudi Arabia...Egypt...Libya...Yemen but as per the actual teachings of Islam (as presented by Ahmadiyya) she will have all the rights to express her views and religion. She will not be killed for her view or religion for sure.
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tallen
panem et circenses
06:20 PM on 07/18/2012
Ha!  Very funny!
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Semprini
Stamp out and abolish redundancy
07:20 PM on 07/18/2012
She is only protected by living in a Western, non-Islamic country, though. I applaud your take on religion (i.e., something you only inflict on yourself), but the Ahmadis are a minuscule, persecuted minority. At best, she would be jailed anywhere Islam dominates, as Tallen notes.

I wish it were not so, but your "theoretical" Islam which SHOULD be the dominant view, is a tiny, toothless infant compared to the giant, powerful mainstream. We must live in reality, and not misrepresent what exists.
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tallen
panem et circenses
08:13 PM on 07/17/2012
"This issue is real and undeniably must be addressed, but on this point let it be clear that there is nothing contained within the Holy Quran -- the highest authoritative source in Islam -- that sanctions any punishment for apostasy. "

And in the above quote we see how supposed rebuttals slyly dance around reality.
This is to confuse those who take such answers at face value.

' The Messenger of Allah said; Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him'
Hadith - Sahih Al-Bukhari (9:57)

The Hadiths are regarded as the words and actions of Mohammed and are the basis of Sharia law.

Evading that belies evasion of the truth in this rebuttal.
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Talossa
Liberal. Pro-Israel. Recovering atheist.
07:23 PM on 07/18/2012
Q 4:89 mandates death for apostasy: "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they). But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

If someone is a "renegade" from Islam, "slay them wherever ye find them."
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tallen
panem et circenses
07:45 PM on 07/18/2012
They're good at the "slay them" part.
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Abdul-Halim Vazquez
09:39 PM on 07/18/2012
People lie so much about that verse, someone wrote a rebuttal of your interpretation:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/quran_489_commentary/
03:11 PM on 07/17/2012
I see another great irony here. In a strange (but important) way, Westernized Muslims and Ahmadis seem to have less respect for Muhammad than I have. I don't believe in Muhammad, but I at least let him speak for himself. That is, when Muhammad says, "If anyone leaves his Islamic religion, then kill him," I conclude that Muhammad means what he says. But Westernized Muslims and Ahmadis tell us that Muhammad didn't mean what he says. So they want us to believe that Muhammad was a horrible communicator, with an odd speech impediment that caused him to issue exceedingly misleading commands even in matters of life and death.

But if Muhammad can't be trusted when he commands his followers to kill apostates, why trust him when he commands us to believe in Allah, or to believe in the prophets, or to believe in the Qur'an? Westernized Muslims and Ahmadis don't realize that, in their efforts to water down Islam, they're undermining their religion by making "innovation" and reinterpretation fashionable.
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ILoveTheUSofA
BREAKING NEWS: There is no God.
10:18 PM on 07/17/2012
Though I understand what you're doing, I'm not sure whether "respect for Muhammad" is really a theme you want to advocate, even in a quest for irony.

I would like to recommend to you the book by Sujit Das, "Islam Dismantled," which explains the mental illness from which Muhammad suffered ("malignant narcissism"). This topic is also very briefly discussed in an interview of Sujit Das conducted by Sujit Das. (I believe Sujit Das must have learned a good deal from Sujit Das even during this brief interview.)

http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=921

"Malignant Narcissism is a deadly illness and they deserve our genuine compassion. However, it is an extremely dangerous situation when a Malignant Narcissist is in a position of power where he can create endless, unjustified suffering and destruction. They have a sadistic “willingness to kill” just to protect their own self-serving delusions. This makes them particularly dangerous, as they will literally stop at nothing to hold onto the position of power in which they find themselves. War and an atmosphere of violence is the situation in which they feel most themselves."
03:26 PM on 07/18/2012
That shows how irrational and full of "haterd" you are. Now I will try to explain the "real" reason behind these haterd comments as follows: Apart from Islam, none of the divine books of religions bear testimony to the truth of the founders of other religions. The absence of any recognition of the truth of prophets other than their own has insulated religions from one another, each one claiming to monopolise truth, each viewing the prophets of other religions as impostors. Although in every day life we do not find this expressed in such strong terms, the hard reality remains, that if the followers of any religion take their beliefs seriously, they have to consider all other religions to be false, even at their sources. It is impossible to conceive a Christian, a true believer in Christianity as he understands it today, who would testify to the truth of Buddha, Krishna and Zoroaster. Particularly, the Christian stance against the Holy Prophet (sa) of Islam is exactly the one mentioned above; they have to denounce him as an impostor, otherwise the only alternative for them is to become Muslims. The orientalists discussing this subject have always maintained this position very clearly, many among them having gone to the extent of showing undisguised hostility towards the founder of Islam on the premise that he had to be false. The same applies to other religions alike.
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Abdul-Halim Vazquez
11:11 PM on 07/17/2012
I don't believe in Muhammad, but I at least let him speak for himself. That is, when Muhammad says, "If anyone leaves his Islamic religion, then kill him," I conclude that Muhammad means what he says. But Westernized Muslims and Ahmadis tell us that Muhammad didn't mean what he says
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Either that or that his words were spoken in a particular time and place and situation with a context which need to be understood instead of applying them to all times and places and every situation.
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Damn Damien
Naturally!
08:36 AM on 07/18/2012
"Either that or that his words were spoken in a particular time and place and situation with a context which need to be understood instead of applying them to all times and places and every situation."
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Yeah, how confusing indeed!

You are saying that Al initially thought that violence, sexual slavery, and piracy was okay at one point of time -- when it suited Mo -- but is no longer halaal, after all.?

Also, when the Qur'an was revealed, there were no Shia. The permission to hide one's religious convictions, for self-preservation is given to anyone. You might say that it applies only in extreme circumstances, but most are already crying that are in the same position as the Jews were.

A very convenient "cult of pirates," indeed.
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11:05 AM on 07/18/2012
Christians and Jews have by and large repudiated the notion of killing for their deity.

I suspect Muslims are now in the process of doing the same through the method you suggest--replacing literalist interpretations of the Koran and Sunna that are to be followed for all time in all places--with interpretations that put the emphasis on historical context.

The problem for those like you and Ingrid Mattson, who has also advocated for contextual interpretation on this site, is mainstream Sunni doctrine that does not accept contextual nuance:

"o8.0 APOSTASY FROM ISLAM (RIDDA)

(O: Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst. [...]

o8.1 When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntaril­y apostatize­s from Islam, he deserves to be killed."

http://www.shafiifiqh.com/maktabah/relianceoftraveller.pdf

This is one more brick in the wall between Islamist/Wahhabist/Salafist Islam and reform Islam.
02:32 PM on 07/17/2012
There's no small degree of irony in Zafar's comments about Abu Lahab and his wife, given Zafar's outright rejection of dozens of ahadith reporting Muhammad's command to kill apostates.

Surah 111 condemns Abu Lahab and his wife, but it doesn't tell us who they were, or what they did, or why they stand condemned from all eternity. Indeed, the Qur'an gives us absolutely no historical information about these people.

And yet Zafar proceeds to tell us a great deal about Abu Lahab, his wife, their identities, and their deeds. Where did he get this information?

It all comes from the Hadith and the Sira! But these are the very sources where Muhammad repeatedly commands his followers to kill apostates! Zafar, however, rejects these commands, which means he's convinced that the sources are corrupt and unreliable.

So why is Zafar getting his information about Abu Lahab and his wife from corrupt and unreliable sources? Simple. His method is to quote whatever fits his agenda, and to reject whatever doesn't fit his agenda. What a convenient sect of Islam these Ahmadis have developed!
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ILoveTheUSofA
BREAKING NEWS: There is no God.
05:25 PM on 07/17/2012
Pamela Geller stands in the intersection of three great Islamic hate-targets: she's a critic of Islam AND a Jew AND a woman.
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ILoveTheUSofA
BREAKING NEWS: There is no God.
07:13 PM on 07/17/2012
Acts17, how can you be so irreverent toward our "Really, Really, Absolutely (We Mean It This Time) FINAL Prophet?"
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09:14 AM on 07/17/2012
Major kudos to Huffington Post for publishing Ms. Geller's reply.

This debate has been stifled for ten years due to political correctness and an ill advised fear of hurt feelings, hate speech and defamation (aka criticism) of religion.

What we are debating is the ideological aspect of the shooting war we are in. Debate, even brutal, no-holds-barred debate, is better than shooting--which becomes the only option when the debate is suppressed.

Muslims and non Muslims both lose at that point.

Even in a debate as consequential as this one, where the future of traditional Islam and liberal democracy are at stake, the winner and the loser both get to walk away.