Rendition Gets a Little More Extraordinary

Extraordinary rendition -- it sounds like a Steven Seagal movie title, but it's the practice, which the administration denied, then admitted but said it abandoned, of capturing individuals, holding them incommunicado and then shipping them off to third countries whose human-rights records are not, shall we say, on the dainty side, for some serious interrogation.

As with most legally questionable practices in the administration's war on the Constitution, this ER hasn't been cancelled, either. According to this story in Monday's Guardian, the action has moved to--prison ships. Check the quote from a British Conservative MP to see how non-leftish the objections to this procedure are in our closest ally.

"Little by little, the truth is coming out on extraordinary rendition. The rest will come, in time. Better for governments to be candid now, rather than later. Greater transparency will provide increased confidence that President Bush's departure from justice and the rule of law in the aftermath of September 11 is being reversed, and can help to win back the confidence of moderate Muslim communities, whose support is crucial in tackling dangerous extremism."

Comments

[luziannagirl]

If we could travel in time back to the mid 1940's, at the height of World War II when we and our fellow Allies were battling the Nazis and the Axis powers for all we were worth, and not at all sure we'd win, and tell a typical American that in 2008 our government would sponsor and instigate both "extraordinary rendition" and torture, their first question would probably be:

"So the Nazis won, did they?"

[Michale32086]

I call a Godwin....

Thank you for your concession...

But, let's examine your little time travel trip.. You would probably get there just in time to see FDR (a Democrat) incarcerating thousands and thousands of American citizens, solely based on their ancestry...

Yet, FDR is hailed today as a great hero..

But, let's take your little Time Machine back even further. Let's go back to the time of Lincoln. Just in time to see Lincoln suspend Habeas Corpus for American citizens and jail Americans SOLELY because they disagreed with the President.

Yet, today.. Lincoln is one of THE great American heroes...

So, please explain something to me.

Please explain to me how these two GREAT American heroes can be so great when they have committed acts that are 20 times worse than ANYTHING the Bush Administration has done..

Can you explain this??

Michale.....

Michale.....

[twofish]

Yes, Lincoln tried to suspend habeus corpus. And the Supreme Court slapped his hand and said "You can't do that," and he complied. But then, his party hadn't had several decades to pack the court with authoritarian knuckle draggers yet (even though they were the people who brought you the Dred Scott decision). I'd say fascists, but you'd drag us down another distraction lane by complaining that the word was anachronistic.

[luziannagirl]

If I could, I'd plaster this across the face of the above "reply":

DISTRACTION! Watch the trick hand!

[Chavez08]

What this country needs is a REAL war, and not this armchair General/1/2 the world away bullsh*t, to give Americans perspective and a dose of cold reality.

When these apathetic, social darwinist soccer moms and bottom-feeding corporate henchmen see their prissy neighborhoods occupied by a foreign predator that allows its' soldiers to murder, rape, torture and humiliate at will - maybe they'll develop other thoughts about blind imperialism.

I **seriously** believe the next President should send Murdoch, his lackies, Limbaugh, the AEI, Heritage and all the GOP flying monkeys and propagandists to fight on the front-lines in Iraq and Afghanistan. If they come back alive after 3 tours of duty, we'll let them have their air time.

How does that deal sound, Chickenhawks?

[Chavez08]

"There is no law, there is only power" - Unknown.

The U.S., like France and England before, will pay a heavy price for it's lesson in Imperialism. U.S. politicians, especially those in highest national office, are the most ignorant, cowardly, corrupt, uneducated band of twits one could ever imagine.

If I went to Yale or Harvard, I would sue for my money back.

[luziannagirl]

Sometimes I seriously wonder what it is we are protecting.

[Michale32086]

We're protecting the right for you to beech and moan at your government. The right to level completely ludicrous and outlandish accusations without fear of being jailed or worse.

THAT is what we're protecting.

"Why? Because they sit up on a wall and say, 'Nothing is going to hurt you. Not on my watch!' "
-Demi Moore, A FEW GOOD MEN

Michale.....

[Chavez08]

...also! Considering we have the weaponry and technology to immediately wipe out any country in the world from a lazy-boy, the "not on my watch" line is a little naive, don't you think?

[Chavez08]

That is the biggest load of propagandist bullsh*t and you know it. Military imperialist aggression abroad **always** leads to loss of freedom at home.

Why is it, you think, that less aggressive civilized countries have more freedoms than we do?

Standing armies are the symbol of tyranny.

[Michale32086]

CONT.....

#2. (Based on OCS ethics classes)
You are in charge of a team in New York city. You have in your custody 1000 men. You know for a fact that 999 of those men are completely innocent. One of them you know for a fact is a terrorist who's intent is to set off a nuclear bomb in the heart of New York City. You have absolutely NO WAY to determine which is the guilty man. You don't have time to torture them to learn the truth and you are philosophically against torture anyways. You have NEST teams (yea, I know it's redundant) canvassing the city, but they will need at least a week to detect the bomb and get it out of the city.
So, here are your choices.
You can hold all 1000 men in custody for 1 week to give your NEST teams
time to detect and diffuse the bomb. You do this knowing that only ONE man is guilty and the other 999 are completely innocent.
Or, you can simply release all 1000 men and watch New York City go up in a nuclear cloud.

These are your only two choices. Any other choice will result in the detonation of the nuclear device.

And before anyone even TRIES to poo-poo this away as some fantasy TV/Movie scenario, I remind you of United Flight 93 on Sep 11 2001..

Michale...

[Michale32086]

Let me ask ya'all two questions..

My apologies to Mr Shearer in advance, as these questions have a tendency to clear the room and get people real quiet...

#1. (Based on an Actual Event)
Authorities glean intel that indicates a major terrorist attack in a major US city is about to occur. Authorities swoop in covertly and start canvassing the hotels, obtaining hotel registers and other paper trails in an effort to identify the potential terrorists.

Does anyone have a problem with this???

CONT.......

[sockdog]

No, the supreme leader stays on vacation, alows the attack to happen, THEN uses the fear to gain more power and enrich himself and his allies. Sound familiar.

But seriously Michelle, it sounds like you're watching too many episodes of 24.

[Michale32086]

"But seriously Michelle, it sounds like you're watching too many episodes of 24."

Sorry, this actually happened...

PBS did a big documentary on it.

A Pre-Emption Operation in Vegas
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/homefront/view/

So, you want to tell me again how this is in the realm of "24"??? :^/

You people REALLY need to educate yourselves as to the REAL threat that we face.

Michale....

[tea in the harbor]

We make me sick!
The Bushstopo obviously dissagrees with our founders on a very fundamental level.

[Ale]

If all it takes is the fear of attack to make us abandon our liberty, honor and decency, then we as a nation deserve either safety nor liberty

[Chavez08]

"Freedom isn't Free"

-> It costs a revolution every few decades.

[Comanchero]

Under Republican Pres. Bush, as empowered by the constitution in time of war, enemy combatants were held in prison camps.

Under Demoncrat FDR AMERICAN citizens who were japanese, italian, and german were put into prison camps without a Patriot act! Both presidents recieved their authority for this fron the constitution not any "Patriot Act"
That is the difference between Republicans and Demoncrats is Demoncrat see NO PROBLEM with doing this to American citizens!

[knighthowl]

You need to get your demonolgy straight. Japanese citizens were interned, but Italians and Germans were not.

BTW, Bush is not empowered under the Constitution to imprison anyone without trial. Why don't you try reading that document. You might find it enlightening.

[Comanchero]

When Italy declared war on the United States after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor Italian residents in the USA as well as much of the Italian-American community were suspected , by the Roosevelt Administration, of having questionable loyalty. Executive Order 9066, signed by President Roosevelt on February 19, 1942 not only allowed the military to evict and intern Japanese- Americans but applied as well to German- and Italian-Americans.
For the ignorant;

In February of 1942, some 10,000 Italic residents along the Pacific coast were forceably evicted from homes that they had occupied for decades and issued identity passes that restricted their travel, employment, and ownership of such things as fishing boats and radios. Scores of fishing boats, the livelihood of thousands of Italic families, were impounded for naval use. Hundreds of community leaders, newspaper editors, social club officers, and teachers were summarily removed from their jobs and shipped to Montana for internment.

[Comanchero]

Learn and grow KNIGHTHOWL;

The World War II experience of thousands of German Americans, to most, is an unknown. During World War II, the U.S. government and many Americans viewed German Americans and others of "enemy ancestry" as potentially dangerous, particularly immigrants. The government used many interrelated, constitutionally questionable methods to control persons of German ancestry, including internment, individual and group exclusion from military zones, internee exchanges, deportation, repatriation, "alien enemy" registration, travel restrictions and property confiscation.

The human cost of these civil liberties violations was high. Families were disrupted, if not destroyed, reputations ruined, homes and belongings lost. By the end of the war, 11,000 persons of German ancestry, including many American-born children, were interned.

[davidly]

Actually, Germans were, however and if to a much smaller extent, detained unlawfully. But the point is not what ethnicity, but that politics HAS come into play regarding what "Democrats" or "Republicans" are willing to ignore as unlawful, unconstitutional.

It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. In fairness, though Comanchero, we should be spendng more time as citizens opposing the here and now.

[antispin]

The 74-gun Sultan, launched in 1775, was renamed Suffolk in 1805; however, all of her service subsequent to 1797 was as a prison ship. More Americans died in British prison ships in the War for Independence than died in battle.

It seems that the international corporate state has no use for the US Constitution and would scuttle its hulk at the mouth of the San Francisco bay were it not that it would cause bad dreams. Truly, there's nothing neither good nor but thinking makes it so. Americans don't think much, so there isn't much either good or bad. Truly, the prisoners could be bound up in a nutshell and yet count themselves the kings of infinite space - were it not for their bad dreams.

[WhoneedsGoverment]

Isn't The Patriot Act the target all freedom loving citizens should be going after??????

.

[ceu]

Harry, unfortunately, it's so much worse than your post indicates. One quote in The Guardian article:
"By its own admission, the US government is currently detaining at least 26,000 people without trial in secret prisons, and information suggests up to 80,000 have been 'through the system' since 2001.

26,000! It's unfathomable! This obscenity is being carried out in OUR names!
I was talking to my son about this just before coming to HuffPo and reading your post. His question - and mine - is what can we do about it when we have an administration and a Congress that have no inclination to put an end to it. Seriously - I'm asking where do we turn?

[elbzee]

Here's my answer to your question ceu: I quote Charlie Reeves in his outstanding article, The-545-People-Responsible-For-Americas-Woes."When you fully grasp the plain truth that 545 people exercise power of the federal government, then it must follow that what exists is what they want to exist.

Here is the link to this outstanding point of view. "http://www.liberalsvsconservatives.com/the-545-people-responsible-for-americas-woes-t1957.html

I think he's right. We have all these voices speaking for us. How is it such atrocities are still carried out in our names?

[Michale32086]

This has already been done on TV..

Didn't anyone catch the Season Finale of THE UNIT??

When we start seeing American citizens disappearing into concentration camps, a'la FDR, then I'll be worried..

But does anyone really care if scumbag terrorists are getting an extended sea voyage?

I mean, look at the facts. Not a terrorist attack on US Proper in the 6+ years since 9/11...

Do you think that happens by happenstance???

Michale.....

[SamThornton]

True, no terrorist attacks. Also true, not one rhinoceros has trampled my vegetable garden since 9/11. Suppose I should thank President Bush for that, too.

[Michale32086]

How many rhinoceros trampled your vegetable garden on Sep 11 2001?? :^/

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

If there was a mass herd of Rhinoceros that came thru your garden on 11 Sep and the Bush Administration took great steps to insure that it wouldn't happen again and it DID NOT happen again, then yes...

You should thank President Bush for that, too...

So, did you have a mass herd of Rhinoceros come thru your garden on Sep 11 2001??

Because as sure as I am typing here today, there WAS a massive terrorist attack on this country and thousands of innocent men, women and children were killed..

And there HASN'T been another attack like that on US Proper soil since..

Dem's da facts, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not.

Michale.....

[davidly]

"Do you think that happens by happenstance?"

You mean "doesn't happenstance"? When does a crime become horrid enough that it's worth punishing those who didn't make it happen to prevent it from happening again? (Since it's been established by our own government that some of the wrong people have been detained for years, saying everyone that has been detained is a scumbag is not a valid argument).

Oh, I get it; if we only locked up everyone, crime would disappear! Brilliant! You're clearly a genius, Michale, not worthy of us as an audience.

Move on, there's nothing to see here!

[HST]

"I mean, look at the facts. Not a terrorist attack on US Proper in the 6+ years since 9/11...
Do you think that happens by happenstance???"

The reason we have haven't been attacked is because I flush my toilet every morning.
I can prove that as readily as you can prove ER is the cause of a lack of terrorist attacks.

Hey great for Bill Clinton there were NO terrorists attacks in the U.S. proper during his watch.
In fact I don't think there was any foreign attacks until there was a president with a B in his last name.