Cracking the Autism Riddle: "Vaccine Theory" Fades as a New Idea Emerges

This is the first post in a series of three about autism and vaccines.

If a foreign government were suspected of doing something that caused brain problems to 1/166 American children our nation would immediately and vigorously respond...and even go to war! Well, our children are under a mysterious assault that is causing 1/166 to develop autism. And, we must band together and immediately and vigorously make the correction of this problem a true national priority.

As part of our national wake-up call, April was designated National Autism Awareness month and the press repeatedly aired an impassioned debate: Are vaccines a boon or a danger? Do shots protect kids or provoke autism? Unfortunately, all too often the media discussion was highly polarized...creating lots of heat, but shedding little light.

In this 3-part blog, I'd like to discuss in detail the reasons why shots are very safe - and super important - and to present some fresh ideas about a more likely cause of autism: an invisible soup of toxins we're exposed to every day...endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs).

* For more than 10 years, a steady chorus has accused vaccines of causing the autism outbreak: "Shots have too many ingredients." "Too many shots are given together." Some people think the connection is proven because baby shots have increased in number as the autism has increased in frequency.

The rise in autism is scary and all reasonable people should be desperate to solve this mystery. But, is the fact that we give more vaccines proof that they trigger the disorder...or is it a terrible coincidence?

History is filled with good guesses that just fell flat. For example, five years ago, many were convinced that mercury in vaccines was the autism culprit. It was a fair hunch...but ended up wrong. In 2002, over 95% of vaccine mercury was removed. Yet, instead of plummeting autism rates zoomed even higher!

Another popular hunch was that the MMR shot (measles, mumps, rubella) caused autism. But a huge Danish study (examining hundreds of thousands of children) found that kids skipping the MMR had the same exact risk of getting autism as those who were immunized. A Japanese study also showed zero difference between MMR getters and skippers (no benefit was seen even when the MMR was split into separate shots).

To date, dozens of studies -- examining over 1 million children -- have failed to find any credible association between shots and autism...none!

Yet, speculation that shots cause autism continues to stick in parents' minds. Why? One big reason is because we have all heard reports of kids suddenly "got" autism just a week or two after shots.

In fact, one of the scariest characteristics of autism is that it can suddenly afflict a child who seems developmentally normal. But, is it possible that this sudden problem right after shots is just a coincidence? Absolutely, yes! Every day, serious and amazing things occur, purely by chance. Think of it this way, in a large country like the US, a one-in-a-million coincidence happens 300 times a day.

Approximately 24,000 children are diagnosed with autism every year and in about 1/3 of those cases (8000/year...150/w) normally developing kids show abrupt deterioration (so called "regressive" autism). Regression usually appears between a child's 1st and 3rd birthdays, a period during which they get shots 4 separate times. Do the calculations and you quickly realize that, every year, over 600 children will spiral into autism during the four 1-week periods that follow these 4 shot visits... just by pure, utter, random chance.

Such a high chance of coincidence means that a parent who hears about 4-5 toddlers (or even 4-500 toddlers) who worsen after shots may easily be fooled into assuming that the cause of the autism was the shots...but they would be jumping to a totally false conclusion.

Scientists have carefully investigated sudden developmental deterioration and have repeatedly shown that there's no link with vaccines. For example, University of Michigan scientists analyzed 351 children with autism (1/2 with the regressive form). They noted the average age for regression was 19 months and they found no correlation to when vaccines were given.

Perhaps, the primary reason parents have been so open to the vaccine avoiders' unfounded claims is the current "science vacuum." For years, government and organized medicine have reacted to the autism explosion with horribly lethargy. As a result, we lack good answers to many pressing questions. This vacuum has allowed the cold wind of speculation to spread doubt and fear through our hearts.

So many parents have become paralyzed with indecision because of this debate that they've lost track of the fact that shots have saved millions of children (and adults) from disease, deformity, disability and death:

• In the 1930's, whooping cough's painful strangulation was epidemic -- in the 1940's the vaccine became widely used - by the 1950's whooping cough was uncommon.

• In the 1940's, paralytic polio terrorized every family -- in the 1950's the vaccine became widely used - by the 1960's polio was almost eradicated.

• In the 1950's, measles caused thousands to suffer pneumonia, encephalitis and death in the 1960's the vaccine became widely used -- by the 1970's measles was rare.

• In the 1960's, rubella was a common cause of stillbirth, deafness and mental retardation -- in the 1970's the vaccine became widely used -- by the 1980's birth defects from rubella had vanished.

• In the 1970's, H flu meningitis and epiglottitis were seen every day across America -- in the 1980's the vaccine became widely used -- by the1990's deadly H flu was close to eliminated.

And similar stories can be told for shots against pneumonia, chicken pox, Hepatitis B, mumps, etc.

In fact, shots are so important that even the most vocal vaccine avoiders swear they're not "anti-vaccine." Unfortunately, their actions make a travesty of their words. With alarming websites and a relentless, multiyear, media blitz they have single-handedly unleashed a huge vaccine backlash. They've shredded decades of public health investment and triggered a surge of "shot-phobia" that threatens to add epidemics of infection to the tragic rise of autism that already weighs so heavily on children and families.

The coming danger of this anti-vaccine campaign is seen all across the county. Doctors daily encounter fearful parents doubting the safety of vaccines. The New England Journal of Medicine reports a doubling and tripling of parents getting vaccine waivers for their children. The LA Times found that over 50% of children in some schools had asked for exemptions to avoid all vaccines.

This is of grave concern because disease outbreaks can start when as few as 5% of kids in a community skip shots. Recent Colorado studies found that children who delayed shots were 6-23 times more likely to get whooping cough and 22 times more likely to get measles. And, many more may fall seriously ill if this trend continues.

Parents who sidestep vaccines may do so because diseases like polio and whooping cough are so uncommon. But, the great irony is that the only reason these killers have become so uncommon...is because other moms get their kids immunized.

In my next blog, I'll respond to 4 more of the standard arguments of vaccine avoiders (3 flawed...and 1 reasonable). Then, in the final part in this series, I'll discuss the increasingly scary possibility that autism is triggered by a common chemical exposure.

Comments

[dugmaze]

How is attacking me and carrying my name to other websites attributing to finding answers for autism debates?
http://counteringageofautism.blogspot.com/

[mofmars333]

Very interesting. I wonder if more people will be voting in the poll to show this attack mode for what it is?

[kwombles]

Please do. :-) Ah, but repeat voting to stack the deck would look very bad.

[dugmaze]

Is autism a disease?

The following is copied from http://special-needs.families.com/blog/autism-disease-or-disability
"Some experts are suggesting that autism is not a disability, but a disease, like cancer, leukemia, or diabetes. This is a new way of thinking for medical researchers. Their reasoning is that autism has become an epidemic, with numbers continually increasing, and genetic "epidemics" do not exist. The good news is that if autism is a disease, potentially it can be treated, prevented, and even cured. Chromosomal disorders, on the other hand, are not curable. If autism is written indelibly into a person's DNA, we have to accept it as is, only working to improve the lives of those who have it. But if it isn't, we have an obligation to search for causes in the environment. "

I think they make an excellent point.

Do the genetics people think that autism is incurable?

[kwombles]

I would respectfully submit that "new way" would need to be defined. How new? I'm going to state for the record again that the lag between the researchers' knowledge and the public's is extensive.

And I again refer you to Coleman's (2005) the Neurology of Autism:

"“A spectrum is the term used to describe continuous clinical variations spread out within the same disease entity. The utility of a spectrum is the ability to assemble a coherent group that is composed of individuals who all share a set of basic underlying pathological traits, such as a genotype, and that thus provides a consistent set of individuals for further research and the development of rational therapies. The implication of the term “autistic spectrum disorders” is that they are, in the end, one underlying disease. Thus, is autism one huge, sprawling, multifaceted spectrum of a disease? Or, perhaps, is autism a syndrome, a final, common phenotype expressed by many different underlying diseases? Is autism a spectrum or a syndrome? Study of the human genome has led to many changes in medical thinking; one of these changes is that the concepts of “spectrum” and “syndrome” as used in the past have developed extended meanings."

[kwombles]

"This led to the conclusion that autism was a complex rather than a monogenic disorder, with the term “oligogenic disorder” used to describe the involvement of multiple loci (Risch et al. 1999; Cook 2001). The assumption was made that, like in other common diseases such as Parkinson disease, multiple genetic and environmental factors would in?uence the risk of an individual being affected. Susceptibility or protective genes might confer or reduce the risks of developing disease. One strategy, using linkage and association studies, examined the possibility that the responsible genes are not mutated sequences encoding aberrant gene products but apparently normal polymorphisms acting synergistically or even “independently.” Investigating the genetics of separate subclinical traits or endophenotypes in relatives of children with autism seemed another constructive way to find susceptibility genes (Leboyer 2003). After more than 10 years of very hard work on these linkage and association studies by many dedicated investigators, no susceptibility gene for all of autism has yet been identified.”

from Coleman, as well. You need to get this book. Seriously.

[dugmaze]

Do you think that autism is incurable?

[sirenity]

This blog you are quoting provides no reference to what expert the author is referring to.

What experts are suggesting that autism is not a disability?

http://www.autism.ca/whataut.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/

"Autism is a brain development disorder characterized by impaired social interaction and communication, and by restricted and repetitive behavior. These signs all begin before a child is three years old.[1] Autism affects many parts of the brain; how this occurs is not understood.[2] The autism spectrum disorders (ASD) also include the related conditions Asperger syndrome and PDD-NOS, which have fewer signs and symptoms.[3]"

Plus, perhaps one should consider the view of the adults with autism on the theory of 'curing autism'.
http://www.aspiesforfreedom.com/showthread.php?tid=10915 (just one example. Check what Michelle Dawson has to say, or Gonzo.

[dugmaze]

It didn't matter to me who wrote it. It was a new angle on autism that I've never heard of before.

Do you think autism is curable?

[MNmommy]

I think that autism is a disorder, not a disease. Might I be persuaded differently with new evidence? Certainly.

Do I think it's curable? No, just like I don't think that Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, ADHD, Schizophrenia or Bipolar are curable. The symptoms can be treated, therapy can be extremely effective, medications can help, and those affected can learn coping and compensation strategies.

[sirenity]

Well said.

[MNmommy]

Say, thanks for the link. I'm thoroughly enjoying Kristyn Crow's blog entries. She's has lots of interesting insight into all kinds of issues with children. If I still had a little one, I'd be buying her children's books, the woman is clearly a talented writer!

[Mnemanth]

Autism is the new ADD. Everything, every "symptom", can now be attributed to Austism.
Anyone care to consider that the dual career family might have something to do with this?
How about using the television as a babysitter?
How about all the boxed cr*p and fast food that "parents" dump on their kids because of their "in the fast lane" lives?
Parents- stay home and be parents. Take care of your kids. Get them out from in front of the television and outdoors. Feed them- and yourselves- with healthy alternatives.
And, everyone, stop- please stop- buying into this nonsense.

[dugmaze]

It's all genetic. We inherited from our parents. Can't you see that?

[Mnemanth]

I can see the decline of our civilization, and it starts at the family level. There's an excuse for everything...but no one wants to explore the possibility that "all in the name of progress" plays a part.
Please justify the concept of "climbing the corporate ladder" and how that takes precedent over your child's development? It's accepted as main stream these days!
Tell me how a parent finds it alright to work 18hours per day, with their children parked in front of the tv or some garbage video game? Explain to me why you'd think that such children have issues with communication and emotional growth.
Yes, genetics can account for a percentage of cases of developmental disorders. Convenience, laziness, and greed accounts for a larger percentage.
Not to mention, and I'll say it, how chic it is lately to be jumping up on the Autism bandwagon. Like it's a badge of pride to have an Autistic child.

[sirenity]

"Autism is the new ADD. Everything, every "symptom", can now be attributed to Austism" (from Mnemanth)

Not true. That was dramatically put.

[Aut547]

Wow! We are back to blaming parents again for autism? I was a stay-at-home mom, eating all organic food, perfect pregnancy food intake, exercised, started a MOMS Club for park dates and healthy socialization, my son was born healthy and happy. He never watched a day of tv or even a baby mozart video because we spent too much time singing with mommy at Gymboree, playing at the park, breast feeding, exploring toys in a play pen, reading books, bathing, and napping.

Only thing I did wrong was vaccinate my child. Flip of a switch....son gone. I still consider myself a fantastic parent but all the activities of his first 10 months were replaced with clinic-based OT, speech, DDT, special preschools, and hours upon hours of in-home therapy. A total of over 15,000 hours of therapy all before he entered first grade.

I assure you Mnemanth, this is not nonsense and my sons "symptoms" of scratching endlessly at his flesh, running between the kitchen and couch hours upon end, screaming in agony when touched, and hiding under chairs are QUITE real.

Would love to know if you even know a single soul with an autistic child. Perhaps an afternoon at a special school for autistic children would be enlightening.

[typicalpol]

I think Dr Karp is dreaming here and this piece is nothing but spin and damage control.

[MNmommy]

Care to expound on those accusations?

[RMankovitz]

I can hardly wait for the final installment of this series with the unveiling of the "new" hypothesis that endocrine disruptors such as Bisphenol A (BPA) may contribute to autism. Let's look at where a baby might be exposed to some of these horrific chemicals.

Start with the hospital maternity ward, where parents are routinely given samples such as pacifiers and baby bottles. Guess what - most of these products are loaded with BPA. Laws are now coming on the books to ban them, and the corrupt FDA just announce they will re-evaluate their position that BPA is safe.

OK, now onward to the pediatricians office, where new mothers are counseled on a variety of baby foods and infant formulas, and sometimes even given sample cans of formula. Guess what? The linings in these cans are loaded with BPA!

It gets worse. Say your baby has colic from drinking the Frankenfood parading as infant formula. Many pediatricians will then recommend soy formula. Guess what? Soy formula may be the worst of them all. Soy formulas are loaded with estrogen mimics that cause enormous hormone imbalances, and they have been banned in several countries.

All of this and more, brought to you by the same establishment that assures you vaccines are safe.

Naysayers, want peer-reviewed support for all of the above? Get off your rear end, and use Google to find them for yourself. You might learn some research skills useful in making informed decisions on health.

[kwombles]

Well, you waded into this with your knickers in a knot. Burden of proof is on the person bringing the accusation. And I'm still not convinced you actually understand the meaning of peer-reviewed, Roy.

What precisely would you be feeding the babies, Roy? And if you say breastmilk, what would you have the mothers eating?

Firstly, you think bioligcal dentists are a good thing. Secondly, you think buying certificates off the internet makes you qualified to offer nutritional counseling and "holistic healing". Thirdly, here's your hypothesis for health from your own website:

"Hypothesis for Health
1) Illness results from a failure or malfunction of the body’s defense system.

2) The body’s defense system may fail or malfunction as a result of an overburden of toxins in the body (including those from food).

3) The body may be overburdened by toxins as a result of a misalignment between the body’s evolutionary history and its present environment."


Let's say I bought into that in its entirety. How would you go about aligning "the body’s evolutionary history and its present environment"? Honestly? Eating clay for detoxing? Eating 70% animal fats?

Roy, what does this have to do with autism and vaccines?

[VicDaring]

I don't think you can expect any reply, serious or otherwise, from the SPEOE (Self Proclaimed Expert On Everything).

He has clearly demonstrated that he's interested only in self-promotion.

I think maybe he's not used to being challenged. Roy hangs out with people who go "oohhh.....ahhhh" over his great wisdom. He can't handle himself around anyone else, so he refuses to engage.

[dugmaze]

"Well, you waded into this with your knickers in a knot. Burden of proof is on the person bringing the accusation. And I'm still not convinced you actually understand the meaning of peer-reviewed, Roy."

Is that not an accusation?

[mofmars333]

kwombles asks what does this have to do with autism and vaccines?

The connection is the information Roy brings to our table is important & the connection is safety & well being of children, everywhere.

Roy's profile & comments speak for him & he doesn't deserve this treatment.

He has had dialog with you before in other threads so maybe he has reason for not replying this time.

[Principaldad]

"Naysayers, want peer-reviewed support for all of the above? Get off your rear end, and use Google to find them for yourself. You might learn some research skills useful in making informed decisions on health."

Translation: "I don't want to prove my assertions. I would rather tell you to do it and suggest that if YOU don't find proof of MY assertions, then the fault must be your lack of research skills." -- This is probably wise considering the last time Mr. Mankovitz tried to support an outrageous contention he cited a source that proved his contention wrong.

If someone is looking for "peer-viewed support" for anything, Google is not the best place to look. One possible source for peer-reviewed studies is www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov.

For claims not related to peer reviewed research (such as the claim that soy formulas have been banned in several countries), Google will suffice. However, it is best to steer clear of sites touting "The Dangers of _____ " or "Discovery Concerning the Benefits of _____". This have high correlation to false claims, misrepresentations, and woo.

A bit of research shows that the claim that soy milk has been banned in several countries appears to be misleading. Soy products FROM CHINA were banned due to very valid melamine fears, not because of "estrogen mimics" (http://www.delchn.ec.europa.eu/?item=news_view&nid=376). Anyone making the claim otherwise is free to get of their rear end and prove their own arguments.

[dugmaze]

How do you guys know him so well?

[lbuzzell]

Well said, RMankovitz! The toxic chemicals babies (and the rest of us) are exposed to is the real elephant in the room, yet this frightening situation is seldom mentioned by the mainstream medical profession or the media as a cause or autism or a multitude of other ailments.

[RMankovitz]

Hi Linda:

Congrats on the new book and the Time Magazine interview!
See ya in the 'hood.

Roy

[mofmars333]

I agree Linda & thank Roy for bringing this information to attention.

Mr. Karp writes here about a soup of toxins that we're all up against & that is true.

But fact is, the vaccinations are more likely, than not, to be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back.

[Kruddler]

I think that BPA and other compounds that leach from everyday plastics as potential culprits for some of the neurological disorders more prevalent today an interesting hypothesis and one well worth pursuing. However, very little research has been done on their long and short-term effects in humans, which is worrying since plastics have become ubiquitous. A search on pubmed only came up with a handful of papers, most of which involved rodent models. I don't think that it is possible or relevant to compare these few studies with the multitude of studies and trials involving vaccines. As an aside, there's been discussion about low rates of autism diagnosis/­prevalence among the amish population compared with the rest of the US. I would contend that this would only aid the hypothesis of endocrine inhibitors such as BPA found in plastics as a causative or contributing factor in the aetiology of autism. Lots of work needs to be done. I'll leave the theories about the plastics industry hiding data to others.

[dugmaze]

"As an aside, there's been discussion about low rates of autism diagnosis/­prevalence among the amish population compared with the rest of the US. "

Plus there were some major changes to plastics in the 90's according to a plastics engineer on another blog.

There are two other areas I would like to see studied:

The first area is pesticides. A law passed in 2007 allows the use of DNA mutating pesticides against the wishes of several scientists including 5 Nobel winners.
http://www.victoryoveradhd.com/articles/pesticide.html

The second area is HFCS and the mercury content:
http://www.ehjournal.net/content/8/1/2

[Flavor]

Parents, I can't express this more go and get your chilhood immunization records and compare them with the ones that your children have to take today, it's mind blowing. You as a parent can find out from the school how many shots they will need in their school age years and it is over thirty. I am 40yrs old and compared to the immunizations me and my brother recieved we both were stating a few minutes ago that we missed out on a dozen.

[MNmommy]

Serious question for you, if I might.

Vaccine development will continue, some might argue about the success of certain vaccinations, but it's hard to argue that the smallpox vaccine eradicated smallpox - which is THEE model on which most followed. We can quibble about Polio - but I think the facts are in there as well.

The HiB vaccine, which has been saving babies from the horror of epiglottis has also been hugely successful. Should we eliminate that one? If we go down the list of recommended vaccines which should we elminate? I don't remember seeing a child that became deaf from mumps since the few that I grew up with in my childhood in the 60's.

I understand the objections to Hep B, especially the argument that it makes sense to wait until they are 11 and closer to the age where the transmission likelihood is much greater - I get the objections about Gardasil.

My question remains, if vaccines can be created to save hundreds and/or thousands from death or severe illness, why shouldn't they be created, and why shouldn't they land on the recommended list? The recommended list is not usually the same as the required lists for school - and there are always exemptions and modified schedules.

Is the goal here to stop all vaccines? When I read posts from mofmars where vaccinations are compared to 9/11 and the Holocaust, I worry that some folks have lost all proportionality on the subject.

[Flavor]

MNmommy, our goal is not to stop all the vaccination shots and you asked a very important question. First let me explain this to you, because I can only relay my story. My son was two when he got his first immunizations and he was and still is adorable, he was like any typical 2yr old talking and playing ect... we took him to get his first immunization shots and within a 24hr period he had a fever and all communication stopped, no more eye contact and my husband and I knew he had had a bad reaction to the shot. In fact when we went to his pediatrician back then he said something went wrong(duh). What I and others want is for the powers that be is, take in consideration that some percentage of children don't do well with these immunization (especially) boys, autism happens more in our boys, could it be that maybe the shots are given too early for their body because they are growing and maybe some changes are happening that their body cannot tolerate. Most do fine with the immunizations but some do not and it's two too many. I would be foolish to say that the immunizations have not help but whenever man makes something there will be some failure. The rate of autism is growing and this handicapp is no joke.

[mofmars333]

That was a great & heartfelt post but you're taking what I said about 911 & the holocaust out of complete context.

MNmommy, if you check my comments, you'll see I didn't compare 911 or the holocaust to vaccinations at all.

I don't know if it's your reading comprehension or you weren't paying attention & bought into the unfair & false accusations of another, against me?

I was hasty & did state I don't believe, now, that vaccinations do any good or even save lives.

I started out like Jenny McCarthy in the belief, some were necessary but after reading the many comments in these discussions & doing further research, I started wondering & changing my mind.

The truth is, though, I really don't know. They may do some good but I'm quite doubtful now.

So, I would answer MNmommy & say, no, the goal is not to stop them. Not if benefit is actually real, most certainly not.

I will attach my actual & original comments to this post concering the accusations of my comparing 911 & the holocaust to vaccinations, so you won't have to hunt for them, MNmommy.

Thank you for the most reasonable post. Except for the last line, it did touch me in a way that makes me know you're one of the sincere in the stance you take for your belief in the safety of vaccinations.

[kwombles]

Your argument that there is something to what vaccines we had as children compared to what our children have today in implicating vaccines for autism is without merit; it has been explained repeatedly to you why it is without merit. Can you be specific in why you do not rebut the science offered to you and why this particular belief of yours has any merit whatsoever?

[mofmars333]

I'm not going the way of this circle, kwombles, that has repeatedly & I mean repeatedly, gone no where.

I can't be drawn in by anyone, any more, & add to the clutter of what could be used for constructive & productive debate & discussion.

Maybe later, I'll tell it all to you, again, concerning all I know & have to say on this matter, when I feel the time is right & my posts won't be helping to clog this list.

It's only fair to let others that may have something to say, have at it & I'll add what I'm prompted as I read what transpires as maybe you should, instead of trying to raise those same old arguments against me.

New people looking in won't want to participate in all that back & forth chatter, when we dominate the board.

We need to stop defeating the purpose of the educatioal information on both sides of this issue, from being heard.

I'd rather have my input be brought into it, as it plays out & not at the demands that have been past practice of some people on this list.

[Flavor]

Lets face it, the root to all this denial is (money) at the expense of hurting little one's. I said this before I guess it is going to take a couple more million babies getting autism before they decide to consider that these immunizations are harming a certain percentage of children. Mainly our boy babies and I believe that the answer is right there to be seen but when your in denial you don't care about what others have witnessed not even what the parents know and have seen happened to their child, also thank you Mr. Dugmaze and mofmars333, you two are just as important to us as Oprah, Holly Robinson.Toni Braxton, Jenny and others, your fan base is growing and we are getting good advice from you two as well as physicians are listening and have been listening to you for days because two doctors in my family have been listening and taking into consideration what we all have been stating. Both my cousins are pediatricians, and they don't feel the way (some) doctors do.

[kwombles]

300,000 children with autism in the US. Not millions. And the very fact that boys are affected at approximately a 4:1 rate should be enough to make you wonder how it could be vaccines causing it.

[Kruddler]

The male:female bias in autism is one that concerns me as well and one that might suggest an endocrine mechanism. I fail to see how a bacterial or viral antigen present in a vaccine (or mercury for that matter) would affect the endocrine pathways descriminately in humans. If anyone has a good explanation, I'd be glad to hear it.

[dugmaze]

Thank you flavor for your kind words. Please don't put any of us on a pedestal. We are all in this together, equally. But I appreciate your support.

My goal is to educate others that there ARE dangers in vaccines. I believe we should get vaccinated. My entire family is vaccinated. But do it on the parent's terms.

If the CDC chooses to sit by and do nothing then I'm anti-vaccine. If they choose to do serious studies that relate to all parents, then I'm for vaccines. So far I'm heavily leaning anti-vaccine.

I hope doctors and researchers will see that there are parents out there who are fed up with the current system and need real people to people change. I sincerely hope President Obama does this but the verdict will be out for some time.

My wife and I turned towards alternative medicine because we had ZERO support on the conventional side. We do not agree with every method some doctors do, but alternative medicine doctors made progress while conventional doctors didn't. Is it long term? We don't know. But we have hope and each other.

As for the deniers in here. What can be said? There actions speak clearer and louder than my words ever will. .

[Flavor]

Here, here.

[NetDude]

Please clearly state what it is that is wrong with vaccines and how the parents terms you suggest we should vaccinate.

[sdtech]

Principal Dad you also said: “In those vaccines there are 12.5 or 25 micrograms (depending on dose size). That is not a "copious" amount. It would fit on the head of a pin.”

But 25 micrograms is the same amount contained in one and a quarter teaspoons of a hazardous waste liquid with 4 parts per million mercury.

And 25 micrograms given to children results at least one nanogram of mercury per milliliter of blood circulating through their organs for up to five days, including their brains. See http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/121/2/e208 .

That is 150 billion atoms of mercury per drop of blood.

...And mercury kills brain cells.

[Kruddler]

You're doing it again. It's the mercury that's hazardous, not the liquid that it's in. Please stop being disingenuous.

[sdtech]

Kruddler you said “You're doing it again. It's the mercury that's hazardous, not the liquid that it's in. Please stop being disingenuous.”
First, certainly the mercury is hazardous. And second, it must be taken out. Else it has the same amount of mercury as one and a quarter teaspoons of a hazardous waste liquid – both having 25 micrograms of mercury.

Look at http://www.epa.gov/epawaste/hazard/tsd/mercury/regs.htm .

And third, the term “disingenuous” seems to be used as a diversion from the comparison, which still stands.

[Principaldad]

Find a new record. Your's is broken.

Comparing mercury that was there for a very specific and very real reason to "hazardous waste" is false. To make that claim for a shot that is given, at most, once per year and compare it to standards that are based on constant exposure is also a logical fallacy. No matter how many times you type it, it is still going to be a false comparison.

By the way, I took the time to calculate based on your claim of one nanogram of mercury per milliliter of blood. For the sake of argument I will assume the 1 nanogram claim is true. One milliliter of blood weighs a little over one gram (about 1.06 grams). Since you are talking about one nanogram then that means the mercury is one BILLIONTH by weight (even less by concentration since mercury is more dense than blood). This is so small that it would be virtually undetectable using normal testing methods. Per the CDC, an individual's blood mercury level is not considered elevated until it is above 20 parts per billion. You are talking about far less than one part per billion (about 0.07 parts per billion, or 70 parts per trillion). The introduction and protocol sections of the following study give good background into the levels of mercury commonly found in the blood. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HAC/PHA/variousparishes/rom_p1.html

Plus, ALL CHILDREN'S SHOTS ARE AVAILABLE WITH ABSOLUTELY cZERO THIMEROSAL.

[sdtech]

PrincipalDad, you said: You are talking about far less than one part per billion (about 0.07 parts per billion, or 70 parts per trillion).

One nanogram per milliliter is one part per billion for a specific gravity of one.

[sdtech]

Principal Dad: You said “The 95% was verified in audits of vaccine stockpiles conducted by the CDC in 2001 and 2002.”

But in 2008 the CDC stated “With the exception of some influenza vaccines and tetanus-diphtheria (Td) vaccines (given to children aged 7 and older), the last lots of recommended childhood vaccines which contained thimerosal as a preservative expired by early 2003. If providers have such expired vaccines, they should discard them.”
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal_faqs_availfree.htm#3


And you said: “Today only a couple versions of the flu vaccine contain any measurable amounts of thimerosal.”

But the CDC statements in 2009 indicate that two thirds of the flu vaccine for the recent flu season had mercury. See http://www.cdc.gov/flu/flu_vaccine_updates.htm and http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm

[Kruddler]

If you're worried about the 'flu vaccine, don't have it.

[sdtech]

And sadly, it is too late to advise the millions of parents of children that received the multidose shot with mercury this last flu season.

And even more egregious is the fact that it is too late to advise the millions of pregnant women that received the multidose shot with mercury this last flu season.

Which is the point presented to Dr. Karp at the beginning of all these comments.

“It seems what fell flat was the American Academy of Pediatrics and the United States Health Service in seeing that thimerosal was removed - as it assured the public would be done in an announcement 10 years ago. See CDC 1999 at http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/vacc_safe/bthi1.htm . Children and pregnant women should not have 25 micrograms of mercury, a known neurotoxin, injected into their bodies.”

[Flavor]

Parents, do your research in fact I beseech you to ask your mom or dad if they can find your immunization records and compare them to what our children have to take today, you may be wondering if you got all your immunizations. It will blow your mind, whatever (man) says, well I think the children should get this shot and so it goes on and on and on. We tend to believe the powers that be but I have found out (trust no man) you are the spokesperson for your children and they need us to do what is right and I believe we made a big mistake getting my son immunized so early, I believe that and will die saying it. My son went in one way and within a 24 hour period had a fever and no more eye contact and no more talking. Zombie, is what my child had become and there is nothing anyone can do to take away guilt one feels by trusting people who are to have your child best intrest at heart. I will say this to the roof top, some do okay with the shots but there is a small percentage that have been harmed and I plan to conquer this injustice with the truth. We know man is non perfect and capable of making mistakes but who can compare to a man that admitts it.

[mofmars333]

Wise words, Flavor, thank you.

I believe many like you, coming to the front of this matter, wil soon help this turning tide, become the complete victory, it needs to be.

The Calvary is on the way to stand with "US" on this most urgent atrocity, we've all been up against for far too long.

Thank our good "God" & goodness, in the hearts of man, for that.

[kwombles]

What immunizations we had as children are not relevant to whether vaccines today cause autism. It's been explained why on other threads, but I'm sure PrincipalDad, Kruddler or NetDude would be happy to walk you through it again when they come back to the thread.

You've offered no factual information to back up your claims, but plenty of emotionalism. Health care decisions should not be based on one's gut feelings but instead on a cold, rational look at the scientific evidence.

[dugmaze]

"I believe that and will die saying it."

Me too. Excellent post.

I really don't see why they try to convince me of something that I've seen with my own eyes. All you have to do is lookup "vaccine damage" on youtube.com and see first hand some of the kids affected by vaccines. These are only a handful.

[messytruth]

Because YouTube is the arbiter of truth?

[dugmaze]

Medical Journal studies are being written by Eli Lilly & Co. and then asked doctors to put their names on the articles.

What else have they lied to us about?

What other studies are ghostwritten by Eli Lilly?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aVvfe.v1k_VY

[MNmommy]

Merck as well - guess you missed it:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25311725-5013871,00.html

Not that your conflation of issues brings anything to the table with regard to your assertions that vaccines=autism.

Many of us would agree that there is greed in bigPharma - but is that because they were inherently greedy or because of pressure from Wall Street to perform? Pretty sure that's a big part of the puzzle that is Healthcare in US - and why we are once again looking at changing the system.

[dugmaze]

So let's trust big pharma just on vaccines? I don't think so.

[mofmars333]

You need to cut & paste this link MNmommy sent. Maybe this one will work better;

"Doctors signed Merck's Vioxx studies"

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25311725-5013871,00.html

"SCIENTISTS were allegedly recruited by a pharmaceutical giant to put their names on research done by the drug company to promote the safety of its anti-arthritis drug Vioxx"

[mofmars333]

This is the beginning of hard core evidence proving the system & whole caboodle needs revamped & oversight.

There are still many of those with integrity in the field & they will help set things right.

This does bring a whole lot to the table, Doug, unlike the false claim below that says;

"Not that your conflation of issues brings anything to the table with regard to your assertions that vaccines=autism"

This most certainly does add credence to the fact that the connection between vaccinations & autism is there.

This matter falls into the same category no matter how the deniers try to twist & spin it.

This jig is up & the parents will have their say as truth rules & corruption is scrutinized & exposed for what it is.

[kwombles]

Now we're deniers, huh? No, it, whatever it you are referring to, doesn't add credence just because you say it does. Putting on my English instructor hat, how about using an antecedent occasionally?

I love this, it brings a whole lot to the table. You bring a whole lot of empty hot air to the table, anyway. Blather.

Hard core evidence sounds dirty, you know.

[dugmaze]

In my family we have two doctors. A DAN! doctor for my son and a traditional mainstream doctor for me and my wife. Our traditional doctor was young but very organized and professional. He went way beyond other doctors when it came to your health. Sometimes it almost seemed too much.

He hugged my wife goodbye one time and last fall I went to see him for a problem with my toe. He never once asked me questions about my toe. He was leading me out of his office when I finally forced the issue about my blood decorating his carpet. He addressed the toe in his personal office with no cleanup. I was shocked because who else had been bleeding on his couch before I got there?

Anyway, yesterday on the internet, was this article:


http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/lifestyle/stories.nsf/healthfitness/story/F162FEC7F80D0C02862575D10071399D?OpenDocument

This guy was not some quack. He was professional in every sense. This is our final straw with mainstream doctors. We will still see specialist but only with extensive background check. In fact, we did do a background check on Dr. Kalk but he was probably too young to have much information about him.

[kwombles]

Let me see if I understand you correctly: based on the experience with one particular doctor you have decided no mainstream doctors? That's equivalent to me saying I had a bad experience with one mechanic, so I'll never take my care to another mechanic. Or I had a bad experience with one college instructor, so I'll never take another college class again.

And apparently, he was no a professional in every sense if these allegations are true. Nor if he handled a bleeding toe in that way and your wife in that way (I assume you brought that up to demonstrate his "professionalism").

[dugmaze]

"Let me see if I understand you correctly: based on the experience with one particular doctor you have decided no mainstream doctors?"

No, it all started with my son. All of his symptoms from autism was because we wasn't giving him enough drugs. We went through several doctors and they all said the same thing.
Whe never suspected neurological conditions. Why would we? Once we took him to a neurologist, then it all made sense. That was the first time we ever heard of autism besides movies.
The more we researched the more we realized how little our doctors knew. We had to actually suggest teatments and conditions for our son and the doctor would just agree. Why didn't he suggest these?
Now it's strictly DAN! for our son and I don't know yet about us. This corrupt medical system is just out of hand.

[crowepps]

"I now believe it's Mother nature who gave us immune systems, we should have been trusting."

This poster has got to be a Poe. The immune systems that Mother Nature provided helpfully sorted out the healthiest children for survival by allowing 50% of them to die of infectious disease before their fifth birthday. Personally, I wouldn't trust Mother Nature an inch.

[kwombles]

I would that it were a Poe. If she is, and there's no sense that she is; I've read all her posts, she is the queen of Poe's. I would bow before Moffie if she let slip her Poeness. But alas and alack, there has been nary a wink. And she's gone to lengths further than any Poe would.

[kwombles]

Have you read this morning's comments? No Poe would go down as many conspiracy theory rabbitholes in a span of a few days.

[Kruddler]

Agreed. Many people think that the immune system is some sort of amorphous energy field and forget that although our immune systems have evolved to fight off infection, most pathogens have also evolved immune-evasion mechanisms to get past our defences. Examples are vaccinia (which use TLR system decoys), influenza (which mutate rapidly), and many bacteria (which have quickly become antibiotic­-resistant­).

[PerfumeisToxic]

The idea that killer diseases "killing 50% of children" are normal is untrue. Epidemics happened because of unsanitary crowded living conditions, poor nutrition, and the bringing of diseases from foreign countries that people in other countries had no natural immunity to.

Epidemics have ceased not because of vaccinations but because of improved living conditions. This is a well studied fact.

[messytruth]

Tell that to Roald Dahl:

http://www.childalert.co.uk/absolutenm/templates/newstemplate.asp?articleid=291

[mofmars333]

Exactly, thank you, PerfumeisToxic.

Millions of lives saved from about 1800 to 1950?

"What part did sanitation, nutritional changes, hygiene, cleaner water, less crowded houses, medical reforms, and vaccination play in the 1800-1950 decline in mortality?"

The decline of disease prior to the introduction of various vaccines.

The decline of disease after the introduction of each vaccine.

The relative inaccuracy of disease incidence figures versus death incidence figures.
The testamony of antedotal vested interest - versus - science.

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/intro1.htm

[Principaldad]

Nobody said that nutrition, living conditions, etc. had nothing to do with the high past mortality.

The point was that Mofmars' ridiculous idea that our immune systems are somehow magically capable of dealing with these diseases is false. The diseases were winning for many decades. The point was not specifically about vaccines.

[CattieM]

It seems like the vaccine theory should be easy to prove at this point. Identify how many children who have not been vaccinated that have developed regressive autism. If there is not a vaccine link--and I do not think there is--then these kids must be out there, particularly if families are avoiding vaccinations.

Vaccine proponents are doing a lot of harm and the sooner they can be proven wrong in a way they can understand, the better.

[NetDude]

Its not as simple as just finding kids not vaccinated. For example, how many of those are completely unvaccinated. Then even if you find such a small population, who do you compare them too? You would have to find a similar group in the same exact location / environmental exposures. Then what about the numbers, ethnic differences,

for example, how many subjects would you suggest should be studied? what % change in incidence of autism would you accept between groups? what population group would you study (i.e. age range, ethnic group etc). how would you define unvaccinated - completely? how much money would you suggest reasonable to set aside for such a study?

I'm only scratching the surface here, as any one of these potential flaws would be used widely to dismiss such a study by the anti-vax crowd if it showed no such link.

[dugmaze]

So your opposed to a study of unvaccinated children?

And then bame it on the anti-vax crowd.

The more the pro-autism crowd talks the more the truth comes out.

[kwombles]

Mofmars333 part 5

“I will say & stress the need & demand for new studies with strict oversight.”

By this, Marsha means by the people (citizens at large) and by a whole new crop of “scientists.” And we both know I can and will dredge my way through the bucketloads of your posts to quote you if you deny this.

“The warning bells are the many numerous voices of worried parents that have been ignored for far too long.”

They haven’t been ignored. That’s why the dozens of studies have been carried out and that’s why additional studies will be in the future.



“Thank goodness, knowledgeable people in high places of influence, who care about the whole of mankind, are finally listening & paying attention.”

Again, they’ve been looking at this since the late 1980s so you are incorrect when you say that people in high places are finally listening. The scientists have been busy for nearly two decades on the vaccine question alone.

As position statements go, Marsha, it was imprecise and vague, as all of your posts have recently been. Not everyone has been hanging in there with you since February. If I hadn’t read all your posts, I wouldn’t know what you meant. if you feel I was inaccurate in any of my interpretations, I welcome the rebuttal.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harvey-karp/cracking-the-autism-riddl_b_213730.html?show_comment_id=25606496#comment_25606496

[mofmars333]

Your argument can't hold water. What I say, you call vague, is only your opinion as you can't speak for the silent coming here & gathering the information from both sides.

They are indeed capable & able to do research for themselves.

All this corruption goes hand in hand as to why we need new, trustworthy, studies made by those who we know don't have vested interests.

This matter is in direct connection to the truth behind vaccinations.

So here's even more proof to the matter of what we've been up against.

No one can say different to the thinking people, with a fair share of common sense, paying attention.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/12/eli-lillys-zyprexa-fraud_n_214907.html

[MNmommy]

Why are you conflating pharma fraud with vaccines=autism? If you want to read the real story about Zyprexa, and by extension the questionable marketing of all of the atypical antipsychotics, this is the article to read:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/25569107/bitter_pill