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by Mark Green

There was no Democratic presidential primary debate this week, so 7 Days in America had one, sort of. Post-Ohio/Texas, Gov. Ed Rendell made the case for Hillary Clinton and Arianna Huffington and Katrina vanden Heuvel demurred.

After weeks of Obama on a roll, his enthusiasts are having a hard time coming to grips with a new political landscape. He's still favored (by 74% to 26% according to InTrade.com, the Irish futures market), but Clinton's success last Tuesday has created some new facts to challenge old assertions:

*Clinton should quit because she can't win, argued Jonathan Alter of Newsweek and radio talk show host Ed Schultz. Clinton chose to ignore their "Dewey Beats Truman" hand-wringing, avoided defeat and extinction in Ohio and Texas, and now is mathematically within reach of winning. Based on Realclearpolitics.com's numbers, Obama's ahead by about some 120 delegates (or 52%-48%) and by only 1% in the popular vote (counting Florida but not Michigan). To win the nomination, therefore, she needs 56% of the remaining 961 delegates -- which is about the margin she won in Ohio. Hard but do-able.

*Super-delegates are undemocratic. That is so February. If Supers are undemocratic, then so are Caucuses, which inherently discriminate against night-shift workers and seniors -- which is why general elections are like primaries. Of course, the Democratic Party is no more likely to decide mid-contest that Caucuses shouldn't count as that Superdelegates shouldn't count.

One more time: because Super-delegates have been in the rules since 1982, because they likely will make the margin of difference this year given two superb and evenly matched competitors, and because Supers are not aliens but interested parties called governors, senators, congresspeople & grassroots leaders, the case against allowing each to decide would be the best nominee and president is frivolous. And makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

*Clinton's too negative. Possibly true, but that largely misses the point. There is a natural restraint on her or any candidate, which is that if one is too negative, voters are lost not won. Though red-hot supporters and talk show hosts have an incentive to exaggerate every criticism, Clinton has done no worse than LBJ implying JFK would die of Addison's disease or GHW Bush attacking Reagan's "voodoo economics." And look what happened to Johnson and Bush. Since Clinton obviously believes she has more national security cred than Obama, she's going to advertise that fact in inevitable Mondale-like red-phone ads - though she should surely NOT say or imply that McCain is a preferred president because he's been on this topic longer than Obama.

And both sides should stop stringing together stupid, foolish, or random comments (Shaheen!, "as far as I know"!) since anyone can garther a few "Monster" gaffes from the hundred staff/surrogates who side with a candidate to make believe that the opponent is a creep.

The big story is not attacks but themes -- and it appears that Clinton's finally found a theme to compete with "Change," viz., she's the pocketbook Democratic who has best economic story during this Republican Recession.

There are really now only three big questions that need to be answered in the next six weeks until Pennsylvania or the next five months until the Denver Convention, IMHO:

#1: Who's more likely to beat McCain? Answer -- yet to be determined.

#2: Can Obama figure out why Clinton in Ohio won white Catholics by 31 percentage points in Ohio and blue collar union families by double digits? For if she replicates those numbers in Pennsylvania -- and perhaps in new Florida and Michigan elections -- she can have a persuasive answer to Question #1 above.

#3: Speaking of Florida and Michigan, will there be do-overs there? To cut this Gordian Knot of a controversy, can there be a "One-Third Solution" -- with the States, the Party and the candidates each picking up a third of the costs? For if there are new primaries, it's possible that Clinton could then shrink Obama's delegate lead significantly and reverse his popular vote lead. That too would help her answer #1 with undecided Super-delegates.

Listen to the audio to hear about this and more -- that is if you believe in truth, justice and the Air American way.

RENDELL: On whether Clinton's ads have been unfair: "I think that people on both sides, the Clinton side and the Obama side, should stop whining about us hurting ourselves because what we have done is mild. It's child's play compared to what the Republicans are going to do. If the Obama forces think that the 3 a.m. ad was unfair wait till they see what the 527's are gonna do in the fall. It will make this look like mother goose."

RENDELL: On why Clinton is better on national security issues than Obama: "Although it's true that she never made any decisions, she was there when those decisions were made and she saw the way those decisions had to be made. She experienced the process with which those decisions were made over the course of 8 years -- as well as her time on the Senate Armed Services Committee -- and throughout the course of those 8 years there were a lot of tough and difficult decisions to be made."

HUFFINGTON: On why Clinton won Ohio: "I think that it proves once again that fear-mongering works. The 3 am phone ad was absolute and unadulterated Karl Rovian fear-mongering of the kind that worked in 2002, it worked in 2004 and she is now trying it in 2008. As Gary Hart has just written in the Huffingfton Post, Hillary Clinton has just broken the final rule that you do not provide ammunition for the opposition party that can be used to destroy your party's nominee. And she did that when she said that she and John McCain are qualified to lead the country, particularly during times of crisis, and then implying that Obama is not...Democrats will lose again if they don't everyday make the case that the people who took us to Iraq, who are keeping us there are, are the worst people to protect us when it comes to every national security issue."

GREEN: "Gov. Rendell, you are a super delegate. Al Gore and Jimmy Carter and John Kerry and Bill Richardson other senators and governors are super delegates. Are these evil people who shouldn't have any role in the nominating process?" RENDELL: "Let me say this to the Obama people or anyone else who thinks that super delegates are unfair or undemocratic: Number 1: That was the rule going in. Number 2: If Obama supporters say they are undemocratic, I can say to them that the caucus states are undemocratic because they disenfranchise a lot of people -- particularly older citizens, who can not vote by absentee ballots, and shift workers who tend to be lower income people who work the 4 to 12 shift."

VANDEN HEUVEL: What about the Jonathan Alter & Ed Schultz argument that Clinton should quit the race since she can't win and is being divisive? "I think it's deeply anti-democratic to say that she should step aside. She and the voters should have the chance to decide for themselves." HUFFINGTON: "Absolutely! Last Tuesday's election changed that dynamic. If she had lost on Tuesday then that argument would have made sense, but now it doesn't."

VANDEN HEUVEL: How should Obama respond to Clinton's new surge? "He should go to Pittsburgh and give a keystone speech with details about what he'd do as president to address the economic anxieties and insecurities of workers in Pennsylvania. And he should do it at the headquarters of the United Steelworkers."


 
 

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- Ozarks See Profile I'm a Fan of Ozarks permalink

Your new math?? Does the 2025 pledged delegates include Fl and MI pledged delegates? Those delegates should not be in any total since they cannot be included in Obama or Hillary's totals. How about the super delegates in FL and MI. Did any of these alleged "party elders" have anything to do with selection of FL and MI primaries over the objections ( and court ruling) of the DNC? They should also not be included in any delegate count. It appears you want to use "new math" as well as ole guard "ole assumptions' for Hillary the Monster to steal this nomination and ruin the Democratic party for the forseeable future.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:25 PM on 03/10/2008
- mikeinvail See Profile I'm a Fan of mikeinvail permalink

Duh.
I think that Hillary won RI and Ohio.
Obama won Vermont and TX.( she won the open primary, barely, with the LImbaugh repubs, and he won the caucus). Why doesn't the MSM mention that he won more delegates, again?
The rebirth of the Clintons is way overrated.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:06 AM on 03/10/2008
- awb See Profile I'm a Fan of awb permalink


as the Florida "re vote" (which cannot be a primary due to machines missing from 10 counties until July 1st, and there cannot be a "mail in" as never done before - so caucus is only option) is the main topic on the news --

just a point we haven't seen anywhere:

Florida primary:
January 29th results:
Total votes for Property tax amendment: 4,165,513
Total votes for President: 3,699,418

That means that 466,095 people (over 11%) of the people who came out to vote did NOT cast a vote for President in this primary
Doesn't that show Floridians did not think their Presidential preference vote would not count?
-------------------
It also clearly says:
the Property Tax amendment was the most important reason people voted Jan 29th and drove the turn out

Point 2:

Total votes for President:
Republican: 1,949,498
Democrat: 1,749,920

Only Florida and Michigan had less Democratic votes than Republican votes this primary -- the excitement "missing" on the deocratic side clearly would have driven this vote total up had Barack campaigned in Florida

All factual evidence on the Florida primary and why the current delegate count should not be seated and to stop the talking points of record turnout etc
------------------------------------------------------

sorry but the Sunday talk shows making me crazy--

Obama can win the delegate war - but the pr war is just as important

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:13 PM on 03/09/2008
- Shelly1970 See Profile I'm a Fan of Shelly1970 permalink

Great article. The ad scared voters with great effect. But are there other ways to maintain support for the missions in the middle east? I'd like to hope so...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:05 PM on 03/09/2008
- nellie See Profile I'm a Fan of nellie permalink

More spin.

Obama is ahead in delegates, states won, and popular vote. The candidate in the lead rarely resorts to negative campaigning, and a loyal Democrat never says the OTHER PARTY'S NOMINEE is more qualified that the DEMOCRATIC FRONTRUNNER.

We'll see how this negative campaigning shakes out. But if Wyoming is any indication, it's going to backfire.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:03 PM on 03/09/2008
- AnninCA See Profile I'm a Fan of AnninCA permalink

Fascinating! Thanks so much for the article. The arguments are starting to congeal.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 03/09/2008
- nazgul See Profile I'm a Fan of nazgul permalink

Well, after scorched the earth beneath the Democratic Party, both she AND Obama lost ground to McCain. By qualifying the opponent in the OTHER Party, she increased his polling significantly. By going negative and calling her opponent in the SAME Party, she dragged them both down.

Prior to Clinton's betrayal, both she and Obama enjoyed comfortable leads (6% & 12% respectively). As of Friday they're leads over McCain have been cut to within the margin of error (1%, 4%).

And this person deserves to lead the Party by holding the top elected position in government?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 03/09/2008
- OrganizersWin See Profile I'm a Fan of OrganizersWin permalink

Question One: How does a conservative like Hillary still use a big "D" after her name, especially after we watched 8 years of her husband Bill use his "D" to d-estroy most things progressive?.
Question Two: How do Ohio voters pick the wife of a man who helped send their manufacturing jobs out of the country, while cutting social welfare programs and NEVER delivering on healthcare for 8 yrs?.
Question Three: In the era of the internet, how is it possible that democratic voters get sucked into picking candidates that make Nixon seem like a flaming 'liberal'? .
The "lesser of two evils" was a game that played out just as expected.... more evil!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:18 AM on 03/09/2008
- S1m0n See Profile I'm a Fan of S1m0n permalink

Either will do just fine against McCain; the Republican brand is deeply tarnished this election cycle, and all macrotrends are breaking in the democratic party's favor.

What's uncertain is how many democrats will be able to ride the president's coattails into power.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:09 PM on 03/08/2008
- indie17 See Profile I'm a Fan of indie17 permalink

Mark, if you are going to quote delegate numbers, it would be more honest to disclose that you are including superdelegate numbers in your totals. Superdelegates counts are not voted for, and they are 'soft' until the convention.

Pledged delegate counts (from Real Clear Politics) as of today: Obama 1378, Clinton 1223. This means Obama is ahead by 155 pledged delegates. Note that there are 9 TX caucus pledged delegates not yet included in these number, and CBS has these allocated 7 for Obama and 2 for Clinton.

But let's use the 155 pledged delegate number. There are 599 pledged delegates left. Clinton needs 63% of these to come even with Obama. Do you think this is doable?

It's 2008, and the superdelegates will not be able to hide their votes. If they overturn Obama's win, there will be hell to pay. I don't think they'll do that. But I gather you think this is also 'doable'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:45 PM on 03/08/2008
- ruscle See Profile I'm a Fan of ruscle permalink

Can someone please explain what Hillary Clinton is going to get after she drags out your losing campaign all the way to the convention? She's already knocked herself out of the running for Obama's VP after the "McCain is better" comment. What's she after? More concessions for corporations from Obama before she concedes? I don't see what's to gain other than a lot of negative feelings and egg on her face when she's not the nominee. Which anyone thinking rationally or factually about this will realize is pretty much the way this will play out.

WHAT IS CLINTON AFTER?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:36 PM on 03/08/2008
- nazgul See Profile I'm a Fan of nazgul permalink

WHAT IS CLINTON AFTER?

She wants the nomination for herself. If she can't get it, she wants McCain to win, so she can run in 2012. By 2016 she will be 68.

Yes, 4 more years of Republican rule for all of us is a sacrifice she's willing to make.

If she is able to coerce and bribe enough superdelegates to create her own "coalition of the willing" to hand the election to her, she will lose in November.

Having gained the nomination and lost, most candidates would then cede or be forced to cede the next "turn" to other candidates. I don't think that will hold for Hillary, so it's possible for her to lead the party into 2 losses.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:08 PM on 03/09/2008
- Teddy12 See Profile I'm a Fan of Teddy12 permalink

Fact: Hillary Clinton, Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, and Chris Dodd remained on the ballot in Michigan and received votes. John Edwards, Barrack Obama, Bill Richardson, and Joe Biden asked for their names to be removed. There was no rule or agreement involved. Those who removed their names did so voluntarily.

Fact: Florida Democrat agreement was not to campaign or spend money in the state. All names of candidates were on the ballot. The only candidate to run ads was Barrack Obama through a national cable buy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:29 PM on 03/08/2008
- Merin See Profile I'm a Fan of Merin permalink

Fact: The Democratic Party decided on a schedule. It was the rules. Florida and Michigan appealed, and they lost their appeals.

Knowing full well they were breaking the rules, those two states went ahead and wasted both their time and money on elections that did not count. THOSE STATES did it to THEMSELVES.

They knew better. They were attempting a grandiose protest vis-a-vis an illegitimate vote. Now they are trying to get that illegal vote to count. No dice.

Everyone agreed to the rules going in (Clinton campaign, too) - you can't want the rules changed later just because the changes would favor you.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:47 PM on 03/08/2008
- indie17 See Profile I'm a Fan of indie17 permalink

Fact: From the Washington Post, January 30th:

Clinton announced plans for the Florida celebration on Sunday [January 27th, before the Floriday primary], the same day she held a trio of fundraisers in Florida and accepted the endorsement of the Miami mayor while pressing some flesh for the cameras. On Monday, her campaign claimed the endorsement of Sen. Bill Nelson of Florida, while pro-Clinton unions continued sending out mailings in her support.

All of this sounded suspiciously like campaigning. But aides said they were merely trying to protect the people of Florida who, despite the campaign's "scrupulous" refusal to campaign in the state, showed up to vote for Clinton anyway.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:29 PM on 03/08/2008
- nazgul See Profile I'm a Fan of nazgul permalink

You mean a Clinton ignored and broke the rules. Now that's leadership!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:10 PM on 03/09/2008
- chagedorn See Profile I'm a Fan of chagedorn permalink

The whole argument about tempering Obama by fire -- "that's child's play compared to what the Repbulicans are going to do" -- is just another way of saying "we're doing it because they did it to." In other words, ALWAYS the lowest common denominator, that's just the way the world works and anyone who thinks differently is a chump. Of course the people who say that are always those with the most to gain by everything staying exactly the same. "They did it to me so I'm doing it to you" is not a mature argument, but then again, we're not a particularly mature nation. That's really what Obama is fighting for, not youthful idealism but adult civility and behaviour and a focus on more than a high school level of debate. And it may well be a losing battle...it's a bigger job than just winning over Mrs. Clinton, it's winning over our entire knee-jerk, fear driven culture.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:21 PM on 03/08/2008
- livesimply See Profile I'm a Fan of livesimply permalink

I agree, but a high school debate team would never be allowed this kind of behavior.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:19 PM on 03/08/2008
- TerenceHartnett See Profile I'm a Fan of TerenceHartnett permalink

Obama netted 19 delegates in Hawaii and Wisconsin with only 121 up for grabs. Crappy little states that don't count I guess--right?

Clinton netted approximately 6-8 delegates in TX, OH, VT, and RI with 444 delegates up for grabs.

The delegate count hasn't significantly changed since before TX, OH, VT, and RI; indeed, Obama will likely net 6 or so in WY and MS presently, which would erase what tiny net gain Clinton did have.

So, there is a change in "perception" but not in the actual numbers.

There seem to be 101 theories out there about how Clinton should or is or will win DESPITE the fact that she actually is not winning.

Does any sane person out there think that if the roles were exactly reversed that anyone would be buying into these absurd arguments--if Obama was making them.

Here is the real issue for Clinton supporters: Clinton should be the next president. The only problem is that she doesn't have (and won't have) more votes than the other candidate.

But still she should be the next president. But Obama has more votes. But still she should be the next president. But Obama has more votes. But still she should be the next president. But Obama has more votes. But still she should be the next president. But Obama has more votes. But still she should be the next president. But Obama has more votes. But still she should be the next president. But Obama has more votes.

And on and on . . . in the mean time the party is becoming divided and our chances of winning in Nov diminish.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:58 PM on 03/08/2008
- Denni See Profile I'm a Fan of Denni permalink

"Though red-hot supporters and talk show hosts have an incentive to exaggerate every criticism, Clinton has done no worse than LBJ implying JFK would die of Addison's disease or GHW Bush attacking Reagan's "voodoo economics."

Er, aren't you making Obama's point that this is the politics of destruction that needs to STOP!?!?!? In a modern age, with Clinton being more of a partisan Republican, than most partisan Republicans, she can ill afford to continue to tell the lies she tells, while the MSM sits back and refuses to do it's job of investigating her. The foreign press has done more to document the untruths of her foreign policy experience claim, than the MSM.

The excuse 'it's always been done this way' is the problem. We can't afford 'politics as usual' with cold, calculating politicians who vote THEIR interests (read, Clinton voting for an ill-conceived war DESPITE the evidence that the war was based on bad intell! Hell, what's a few thousand dead soldier, tens of thousands more wounded, and 100,000+ dead Iraqis, as long as she can show she's as tough as one of the boys?)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:24 PM on 03/08/2008
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