Arianna was a guest on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" today, and the war in Afghanistan dominated much of the conversation in light of President Hamid Karzai's threats that he would consider joining the Taliban if he continues to come under outside pressure to reform his administration, which has struggled with corruption.
Arianna argued that this is yet more evidence that the decision to escalate the Afghan war was incorrect, since we don't have a legitimate partner. Also, the distinction needs to be made between fighting the Taliban and al-Qaida. Al-Qaida has spread throughout the globe and is no longer centrally located in Afghanistan:
But even the military has admitted it. The military has said there are about 100 al-Qaida members left in Afghanistan. The military has not given a reason for being there... [Obama] escalated during a time when there was incredible concern about Karzai, even Rahm Emanuel was on television saying he was not a reliable partner. The question is pulling out to focus on where the real threats are. Clearly, the real threats to America are not coming from Afghanistan. Nobody can defend that proposition. So it would have to be a kind of phased out, pulling out like we're doing in Iraq, I hope.
WATCH:
Josh Mull: Humanity Missing From Afghanistan Debate
Respect for Afghans is sorely lacking on all sides of the Afghanistan debate. It's 2010, nine years into the war, and we're still talking about Afghanistan in orientalist terms. We don't want to think about them as human. This has to change now.
This is a totally different culture where typical American greed is not going to buy you friends...The only people that know how muslims think are muslims. Old white men have a better chance of changing healthcare before they do old muslims...If you are not going to get muslim advice on how to deal with muslims then you should never go into a muslim country...
If you are not there to improve the country and get rid of the drugs & corruption then you shouldn't be there...Pick up your toys & leave...
The difference is that after 30 years of war and no central government the farmers need some source of money.
In the old days the King got the opium crop.
Hashish was left to the market.
2003-? --------------------------------------------------- 1964-1973
Fighting "Islamic insurgents" ----------------------- Fighting "Communist insurgents"
Stated reason -- containment of Al Qaida ------ Containment of NV Communists
Economic reason -- natural gas pipeline ------- ???
Real adversary -- Afghan nationalism ----------- Vietnamese anti-colonial nationalism
First puppet "partner" -- Karsai ------------------- Diem first puppet "partner" (assassinated)
Followup -- (who knows?) ------------------------- Replaced by series of corrupt generals
Prior legacy -- Failed Soviet occupation ------- Failed French colonial occupation
10years after end of war? ------------------------- Independent, united, non-communist Vietnamese gov't
Casualties -- ? ---------------------------------------- 58K US dead, 350K wounded, 1-2million Vietnam dead
Costs -- $300+ billion so far ---------------------- $686 billion
Exit strategy -- Unknown, variable, None ------ Paris peace negotiations 1968-73
"Cecret Iye" financing -- Opium, heroin -------- Opium, heroin
Political fallout -- Unknown ------------------------ 2 failed US presidencies - 1 withdrew, 1 resigned
Econ consequences -- Devastating ------------- Dollar dropping since 1971, runaway inflation 1970's,
Social consequencs -- Fall of Empire? --------- Decline of American Empire
Effects on middleclass -- Disappearance ----- Decline + shrinking middleclass
.
Anyone wants to add to this comparison?
A friend of mine, a recovering alcholic once told me: when I was drinking, my family and friends tried to help me. I took their help and used it to sink even lower. Then one day I looked in the mirror and decided: I don't want to be a drunk any more. From that day on their help was vital to my recovery.
The Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld team thought we could save Afghanistan and Iraq from themselves. Both countries will become failed states when we leave, whether this year or 10 years from now. The human, moral and financial costs of "saving these countries" have weakened our own nation far more than the 9/11 attacks. They are tribal societies which operate on fundamentally different concepts, we may not like that, but because they are also proud human beings, there's no chance we can force them to make fundamental changes.
St. Francis of Assissi is thought to have prayed: give me strength to change what can be changed, the patience to endure what cannot be changed, and the wisdom to know the difference.
I have that much faith in the Pakistani military.
But you do know that is the nightmare that kept Bush/Cheney awake at night.
And was their justification for going to the "Dark Side."
Not excusing those criminals. Just understanding them.
Lets bring some honesty to the debate, just say Karzai isn't living up to our expectations of a leader of a 4th world country and that we (the USA) would feel more comfortable with someone in power who expresses our democratic values.and ideals.
Any way you slice it, it's colonialism.
I'm very disappointed in Ms. H
I didn't say anything offensive, so what gives?
Why are we using US military to prop up a "leader" that is ambivalent about partnering the the US agenda in Afghanistan?
Oh - what's that. . . ? US debt to China for these wars is now up to $18 Trillion?
No wonder they don't take the USA seriously anymore -- no one listens to a country that's shouting and waving flags and guns on their way to the poorhouse!
The other half complaining that he is not.
I don't know if Karzai is the man for the job. I have long had my doubts about the man.
But at some point the interests of Afghanistan and their government diverges from the interests of the US and NATO.
Personally I don't think that time has come. Much more pressure needs to be put on the Taliban and other insurgents.
But there are very hopeful signs out there. Most prominently, that Herkmetyr is willing to come to the table. And try and persuade the Taliban to come with him.
What Afghanistan needs is a government strong enough, legitimate enough, and independent enough to negotiate a path between the Taliban and the USA towards peace.
I hope Karzai is the person to do it.
I fear very much that he is not.
Afghanistan has always presented even dedicated imperialists with danger. My mother's family lost five men in the Khyber Passes fighting men that we would find hard to distinguish from the modern Taliban. We must prepare ourselves for that time that the Taliban, or someone very like, takes control in Afghanistan.
And most of the younger Taliban had no idea of their tribal roots.
Also: The largest Pashtun Tribe in Afghanistan came out against the Taliban.
And the elders of the 20 largest tribes in the Pakistani Tribal Territories recently came out against the Taliban. And in fact criticized the US and Pakistan for not doing enough to destroy the terrorists.
$780 BILLION and unspeakable cost in LIVES LOST in Bush/Cheney's KILLING FIELDS for OIL FIELDS in Iraq. (Saddam will seem like a SAINT, compared to his successors.)
But ... healthcare must pay for itself ???
WHEN WILL THIS MADNESS END ???
BRING OUR TROOPS HOME
AND CARE FOR OUR OWN !!!
Aren't some of our US friends real pieces of work?
... and yes, I read the entire article.
I hate to use the term but you are espousing a cultural imperialist view.
Karzai's message is very clear.
Taliban is an Afghani movement he he is opposed to. But in choosing between an alien Western ideology and Taliban, he chooses Taliban over us.
But do not cast the first stone
After the filth of the corruption shown during the Healthcare bill, allowing even abeting Goldman and Friends, exactly what can we preach about Afghani corruption?
Ahmed Wali Karzai is a perfect example of a sucessful Afghan businessman.(see NYT mar30) Bribery is just good business. But IIRC a high US officer threatened him if he did not adhere to our way of doing things.
The real problem of course is opium. Since we do not have the will to deal with OUR drug problem we insist that others from Peru to Mexico to Afghanistan to Burma give up a valuable cash crop.
The answer of course is simple. And Cheap. We buy up the opium and if we choose, destroy it. I am sure Ahmed Wali Karzai would be glad to act as our middleman
BRING OUR TROOPS BACK HOME
AND TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN!!!