More

Featuring fresh takes and real-time analysis from HuffPost's signature lineup of contributors
HuffPost TV

HuffPost TV

Posted: October 19, 2010 09:28 PM

HuffPost Senior Politics Editor Howard Fineman appeared on MSNBC's "Countdown" Tuesday night to discuss Christine O'Donnell's apparent lack of awareness that separation of church and state is enshrined in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution -- and what her nomination says about the tea party more broadly.

"What's really killing here, what's damning here, is that the tea party is run in the name of rights and freedom," Fineman told guest host Cenk Uygur. "And all of those rights and freedoms are enshrined in the very amendments that she seems totally ignorant of."

WATCH:

 
 
 
  • Comments
  • 795
  • Pending Comments
  • 0
  • View FAQ
Comments are closed for this entry
View All
Favorites
Bloggers
Recency  | 
Popularity
Page: 1 2 3 4 5  Next ›  Last »  (13 total)
photo
Telemachus Sneezed
Amendment XXVIII: Persons are flesh and blood
08:48 PM on 10/20/2010
The Constitution: a document which every T_Partier praises but none of them reads.

[with apologies to Samuel Clemens]
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
tinsldr2
Retired Army Officer
06:55 PM on 10/20/2010
What she said. She asked where in the Constitution can you find the words Separation of church and state. The factual answer as elaborated on later by Coontz is that those WORDS are not there.

What we have instead as elaborated on by US Supreme court is the Establishment Clause of the Constitution. We all know what it says. The Courts Use the Lemon Test to determine if a law is violating the 1st amendment establishment clause.

Notice the test BY THE SUPREME COURT says in part " The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion."

Key word is EXCESSIVE. It does not say religion and Government can not mix. That is why Chaplains serve in the military. That is why each session of the house of representatives can start with a prayer.

Ok, I think that O'Donnell is an embarrassment, but in the case of the Constitution she got this one right.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
06:16 PM on 10/23/2010
oh silly person! So you think you're sooooo smart, eh? Then tell me where, in the Constitution, you have the right to a trial by jury, please? It's not there! Just like separation of church and state, a right to a trial with a jury of your peers is implied. Go read Amendment V for yourself. Now Amendment VI does say trial by jury, but only in cases where the value of something is greater than $20. But the public's right to a jury by their peers is not specifically stated...only implied. So she got it wrong and so did you!
03:18 PM on 10/20/2010
It is not establishing a religion mandate all to believe in by simply teaching it as one of the belief systems of the world (creationism, which was the topic). Coons was wrong. And do you really want to go down that road, libs? The THEORY of evolution is taught in about all our public schools & colleges as FACT, which is absolutely provably not. It is a "religion" also. They also teach that homosexual lifestyles are perfectly acceptable - which is a social and a type of "religion" also, but I don't hear the left throw fits about that --- simply bc they believe it too and want it taught and spread. Christine was making the truthful point that we are saying it's great to teach those "religions" but not the Christian one of creationism. She was right about it not being in the Constitution and just because some lib activist judge has interpreted the amendment to make a "wall of separation of church and state" doesn't mean that's correct. It was always meant to mean to keep the "state out of religion" and not "religion out of the state" as can be proven by honest study of those times, etc.
www.wallbuilders.com
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Angie Tyne 1
I want my disagree button!!
03:49 PM on 10/20/2010
Same word different meanings depending on context.
- In philosophy, theory refers to contemplation or speculation, as opposed to action.
- In scientific usage, the term "theory" is reserved for explanations of phenomena which meet basic requirements about the kinds of empirical observations made, the methods of classification used, and the consistency of the theory in its application among members of the class to which it pertains.

As far as teaching religion: so you are ok w/teaching every child hindu creation myths as truth? How about having every child fasting during ramadan? How about we teach that xenu came to earth and we were all infected near a volcano?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" means that there can be no govt endorsement of any religious beliefs. Religion out of the state is exactly what it means. An honest study of the period would show what a mess religion made of govt in France, England (remember Bloody Mary?), and in the Mid-East. We see examples today of theocracies. Be careful what you wish for you might get it.
photo
runswithscissors
I think, therefore I am not a conservative
07:02 PM on 10/20/2010
"The THEORY of evolution is taught in about all our public schools & colleges as FACT, which is absolutely provably not"

Actually, colleges and universities teach that NOTHING is to be accepted as fact in science, no matter how much evidence supports it. Theories are simply scientific statements that haven't been falsified. However, it does mean that they have stood up to rigorous testing. (The HYPOTHESIS of intelligent design has not.) That goes for the theories of gravity, evolution, relativity, etc.

"They also teach that homosexual lifestyles are perfectly acceptable - which is a social and a type of "religion" also"

One of the most absurd statements I've ever seen on this site. Maybe the most absurd I've ever seen anywhere.

"meant to mean to keep the "state out of religion" and not "religion out of the state" as can be proven"

So, let me get this straight. A century and a half of empirical data gathered from thousands of experiments, fossil remains, and comparison of genetic materials across different time periods isn't enough proof to teach evolution in school? However, your baseless assumption that framers MEANT to say that religion in government is okay should be all the proof we need to start teaching our children Christian dogma in schools? Wow...
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Angie Tyne 1
I want my disagree button!!
09:10 PM on 10/20/2010
Fanned for this and aqua buddha comment elsewhere. Intelligence and humor are a great blend.
01:08 PM on 10/20/2010
Yet another terrible legacy of George W. Bush's presidency. Having a leader with zero intellectual heft has left Americans unable to determine when their candidates have enough brains to hold office. As many others have said, I want my politicians to be smarter than me. But first Bush, then Palin, and now O'Donnell - this is a truly disturbing trend!
photo
beaker55
Orwell was right.
12:57 PM on 10/20/2010
Granted, Chrissy O’ is NOT the sharpest knife in the drawer. But all you have to do is simply READ the 1st Amendment to know that “separation of church & state” is NOT in the Constitution. The concept was established in a 1947 court decision in Everson v. Board of Education and exists today as a popular doctrine. And, you can argue all day that Jefferson meant religion should never have a role in government, but that’s just ignorant (not stupid, just ignorant of the facts). What he said and what he meant was that government should never have a say about the establishment and practice OF religion; just the opposite of today’s PC collective consciousness where a school principal can ultimately be indicted for allowing the word God in a commencement speech and our president can glibly excise the words “endowed by their Creator” and the words “laws of Nature and Nature’s God” from the preamble as though they’re NOT written there. If the Diest/Sceptic (and faithful Anglican Church member) Thomas Jefferson meant that government cannot have any connection to religion, why, just two days after he sent his famous letter [aka ACLU proof-document] to the Danbury Baptists did President Jefferson attend public worship services INSIDE the U.S. Capitol building (something he did throughout his two terms in office)? And why did he authorize the use of the War Office and the Treasury building for church services in Washington, D.C.?
photo
TechYes
I'm not dead yet.
01:27 PM on 10/20/2010
The concept of separation of church and state was not established in 1947's Everson case. Everson was the first Supreme Court decision to incorporate the 1st Amendment's regliion clauses to the states under the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause. Both the majority opinion and the dissent in Everson defined the 1st Amendment in terms of Jefferson's "wall of separation between church and state" - that was always the interpretation at the federal level; after Everson, it was applied to the states as well.
photo
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Sunnyd2035
We only have the one planet ....
01:32 PM on 10/20/2010
Wrong on all counts., I would explain why but my replies keep getting deleted.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MSMSucksCom
Sadly, my bio fits in this space.
12:45 PM on 10/20/2010
The reason the debate was most telling is that it shows the lack of depth tea baggers have.

Just as Palin, who most of America knows is dumb as a rock, O'Donnell showed the audience (and by extension all of us voyeurs) that O'Donnell would make a lousy senator.

She lacks the intelligence, street smarts and sharpness to "play the game" in Washington and Repubs would simply use her for a vote and then tell her to go back to her apartment and wait for the next call.

O'Donnell is also like Palin in that I suspect she does not have a desire to actually work at "doing the work of the people." She simply likes all the attention and fun of running for office.

(Remember, when asked after she lost the election what she thought of the campaign, Palin said "It was a blast." That's a description someone gives only if they are in it for the fun and attention.)

You know what, O'Donnell and Palin remind me of those two Foster Farms chickens always trying to convince people they are something they are not. Watch those commercials and put Palin and O'Donnell name tags on each. I swear those chickens with all their antics are mirror images of the two.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Elle Bach
Mr. Einstein...please call me
01:05 PM on 10/20/2010
It's the "MSM" that must STOP covering the antics of these shockingly shallow, wanna-be spotlight hogs like they're worthy of our serious consideration as "leaders." Everytime CBS, NBC or ABC features one these circus acts as worthy of a serious place in our national dialogue, we need to paper their in-box and tie up their phones with derision; or stop buying their advertisers products. Such irrerponsible, lazy "reporting" is choking our minds with junk memes - lowering the IQ of an entire nation -- and that self-destructive insanity has got to stop if this country's going to survive..
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
MSMSucksCom
Sadly, my bio fits in this space.
01:35 PM on 10/20/2010
Totally agree that MSM is a problem. But for national coverage we would would not be aware of nor care about a race in Delaware.

In a way I can't blame media, however. Obviously politics would be boring if it were not for fools. So covering a story such as "Senatorial candidate admits she dabbled in witchcraft" is newsworthy in anyone's book.

And fortunately, in my view, but for MSM covering all this, the Repubs would have taken over the House and Senate. At least now MSM has shocked Dem voters into actually voting.
12:24 PM on 10/20/2010
O'Donnell doesn't even know what a senator's job is. I swear she thinks it is all fundraising and making speeches. How can you apply for a job writing laws and not understand the constitution laws are required to follow.

I can only imagine the bills this woman would propose and the other senators having to pull her aside and explain, honey, you can't just write laws based on what you wished the constitution said...
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Elle Bach
Mr. Einstein...please call me
01:11 PM on 10/20/2010
She wouldn't believe them, or shut up long enough to allow reason or logic to penetrate her brain. She's a lazy, incurious ego-centric "mouth" who's convinced herself that she's entitled to make up her own reality and foist it on anyone within earshot. I have no idea what happned to those folks in Delaware to have created something out of so much nothing; someone must have put a mind-altering drug in their water main.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Nuyorican21
MALDEF Law Clerk
09:53 AM on 10/21/2010
But its fundraising to pay for her apartment.
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
photo
Sinister Minister
There's no way out of here alive.
12:22 PM on 10/20/2010
Not knowing what's in the Constitution is bad enough but this is the third time this woman has run for the Senate. You think you would start picking up on some of this stuff after this long.
12:19 PM on 10/20/2010
The seperation of church and state is a totally different concept that the Establishment Clause (EC) of the First Amendment. Christine O'Donnell knows this all to well and knows it better than you Howard. The EC merely prevents the establishment of a national religion or theocracy. This was and has NEVER been an issue in the U.S. as it was what the colonist fled from.

Seperation of church and state is found NOWHERE in the constitution or any amendment...period...end of story. That is a fact. Furthermore, the concept never existed until Justice Hugo Black invented the concept in 1947 Everson vs BOE and attributed the fabricated concept to the First Amendment when writing the 5-4 majority opinion...a ruling that was contrary to the prior 150 years of supreme court precident.

Christine O'Donnell was correct!!! It is the media and O'Donnell's opponent that does not know what they are talking about
photo
lesterbud
Facts ARE Liberty
12:33 PM on 10/20/2010
You can type the word "fact" as many times as you wish.
The concept is contained therein. Shall not promote means shall not promote.
Nothing your "facts" can do about it.
Next...
photo
beaker55
Orwell was right.
01:21 PM on 10/20/2010
Try relying on a 'concept' the next time you buy a car or a house. You sign a contract and you read it carefully, right? Sorry, I just took that for granted. The words in a contract mean things. The Constitution is a contract. The words mean real things. BTW, "Shall not promote" is not in there either. Where did you get your copy of the Constitution??
12:37 PM on 10/20/2010
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So lets see, O'Donnell supports teaching Christian "Creationism" in our PUBLIC schools... So teaching our children a specific religion doesn't constitute a "establishment of religion"???

The phrase "separate of church and state" was used by Jefferson, you know, one of those "founders" that you and your fellow Beckians claim to worship? Pick and choose much?
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
csavage
12:01 PM on 10/20/2010
The conservatives equate liberty with not having to pay taxes, nothing else. It's just us silly liberals that think liberty has anything to do with civil rights...a conservative would be happy living in a police state, as long as he wasn't personally affected by it and he didn't have to pay for it
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Nuyorican21
MALDEF Law Clerk
09:56 AM on 10/21/2010
So true. The 'free market' does not want democracy, its wants authoritarianism. Shame on us liberals for believing otherwise.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
GirlFriday123
We all live downstream.
11:58 AM on 10/20/2010
Could someone like Thomas Jefferson, with an 'elite' education, upbringing, worldliness, and intellectual bent get elected in this day and age?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
11:30 AM on 10/20/2010
The "tax protesting" Teabaggers want to take our country back to the good old days when only white men were allowed to vote and ruin (I mean "run") our country ... and everyone else was at their mercy.

And IF Democrats allow this to happen ... WE THE PEOPLE are in BIG TROUBLE!!!
12:06 PM on 10/20/2010
In the name of freedom and rights, it is "my" freedom and rights over yours, especially if by "you," I mean "you don't have the same freedom and rights" as I do. It's like to "love my neighbors" means to choose who my neighbors are- (ie., -having the same aversion towards others not like us).

If independents and democrats--meaning "we the people who are registered as such"--do not vote and get others inspired and encouraged to vote against the GOP/Tea Party (including some IND), shame on us!
01:21 PM on 10/20/2010
We the people are already in big trouble w/ major corp dollars supporting puppets like we have never seen b4 and people drinking the koolaid and buying into these whacked out tenets.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
LucidPanther
11:29 AM on 10/20/2010
This is emblematic of the tea party's elevation of ignorance into a virtue. George Orwell accurately encapsulated this convoluted thinking by the politically corrupt with his famous quote in his classic novel, 1984 - "Ignorance is strength". Everyday, Fox News is on the air with the underlying principle that 'ignorance is strength' and their mindless cult-like fans consume their toxic waste.

From Sarah Palin to Sharron Angle to Christine O'Donnell - these people wear their ignorance like a badge of honor. This is just another reason they represent a danger to our democracy. They want to take this country back(ward) to the dark ages when religion trumped science; when a Galileo could be imprisoned for heretical ideas.

Ignorant crackpots have always been with us but what makes this different is that millions of Americans are voting for and propelling these nut jobs to prominence and positions of real power - while the msm legitimizes them by treating them as respectable and worth listening to.

Sarah Palin and Sharron Angle would be nobodys if it weren't for the millions of Americans who - out of a nation of 320 million people - decide to elevate these crackpots as the best America has to offer.
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
salamanca1
They're good eatin', but you need a lot of 'em
11:42 AM on 10/20/2010
Fanned and faved, Panther. And I'd recommend the book "Idiot America," for a modern exposition of just how that works in detail.
11:44 AM on 10/20/2010
You got it correct: "willfully ignorant and proud of it" should be their tag line.
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
noaxe397
10:52 AM on 10/20/2010
Conservatives are always for rights and freedom, the "fun" party of democracy.

The heavy lifting of responsibility for their country is another story. Then it's "get off my back and out of my pocket."
photo
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
glaze
10:50 AM on 10/20/2010
The best feature of true science is in its neutrality.
The best feature of religion is in its holidays.