Picking a Fight With Russia: Very Presidential

Things seem to have gone very wrong in Georgia and South Ossetia.  It doesn't really look like anybody has a very clear idea of what is going on.  As a presidential candidate you have two choices:

A.  Take a cautious approach and call for the cession of violence on all sides

B.  Pick a fight with the world's second largest nuclear power by blaming them without taking the time to figure out what is going on.

Obama chooses A.   

"I strongly condemn the outbreak of violence in Georgia, and urge an immediate end to armed conflict...Now is the time for Georgia and Russia to show restraint, and to avoid an escalation to full-scale war. Georgia's territorial integrity must be respected."

McCain chooses B.

Today news reports indicate that Russian military forces crossed an internationally-recognized border into the sovereign territory of Georgia. Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory. What is most critical now is to avoid further confrontation between Russian and Georgian military forces.

Seriously, nobody really knows what is going on there.  It could be that it is all Russia's fault, but the situation is likely much more complicated than that.  There will be plenty of time to criticize Russia later, but if we want to play a healthy and mediating role in stopping the violence, which is what McCain and Obama both claim to want to do, we should probably hold off on picking a fight.  Especially considering that we have other serious interests with the Russians who also happen to have a lot of nuclear weapons.  McCain promises broad cooperation with the Russians on nuclear proliferation.  How exactly does he plan to achieve that if he's going to come out so aggressively on this type of an issue without even thinking through the consequences of shooting first and asking questions second?

Comments

[Michale32086]

@ceti

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Michale, we get it, your are pro-Georgian, and are trying your best to spin this story in Georgia's favor even though, it it is abundantly clear that Georgia decided to take back South Ossetia by bombarding its capital, causing massive damage and prompting a huge refugee crisis.
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No, I am pro-doing what's right...

As I said, consider that Texas wanted to break away from the US.. Granted, it probably would be BETTER if we let them go (just kidding, texans.. :D ) but we send in troops and planes.

And then Mexico sends in troops to protect their own and then Mexico starts bombing Phoenix and Albequerkie etc etc etc..

Who is right and who is wrong in that scenario??

The answer is obvious..

Legally, morally and ethically, Georgia is in the right..

It's Obama's duty to forgo any political considerations and make that clear... That is what a PRESIDENT would do...

Michale.....

[rwt1138]

It isn't as clear as you make it out to be, and if you are looking for parallels to Russia's actions, think the invasion of Grenada. The big difference is the Russians were more provoked in this situation than America was in Grenada. The bottom line here is that there is a dispute over South Ossetia. For some reason, the president of Georgia decided to make a power play to resolve the dispute in his favor.

Legally, morally and ethically this case is not as cut and dried as you make it out to be. There was a low level conflict in South Ossetia. For some unknown reason, the president of Georgia decided he was going to settle things once and for all. It apparently did not occur to him that if you are going to pick a fight with another country, you have better either a) have the military might to back it up or b) have an ally who does. Georgia started it. Russia is ending it. The Russian response is far more aggressive than anyone expected, but is not wholly unpredictable; they have been looking for an excuse to smack Saakashveli and he gift wrapped one and sent it to them with a big shiny bow.

I'm not saying the Russians are right, just explainable. And Americans don't exactly have a lot of room bitching at other countries for invading countries on thin pretexts to cover ulterior objectives, right?

[MagisterLudi]

Facts:
DAY One: Aug. 7th.
Saakashvilli is on national TV proclaiming ( lying about) his peaceful intentions. At the same time his army is secretly deploying on Ossetian border. But hey, he's a American trained corporate lawyer.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, reaching the capital of Ossetia, Tskhinvali. They proceed to bombard the city into rubble using Grad missiles, 122mm howitzers, SU strategic bombers and large caliber mortars. Tank attack follows.

About 1400 Ossetians lost their lives that day! About 30, 000 Ossetians civilians were made homeless refugees by Georgian attack.

Georgian attack is very reminiscent of Hitler's attack on Poland and American attack on Panama.

[Errour]

Doesn't W have any "intelligence" about what's going on in the world? Was he so eager to attend the Olympics that he felt entitled to ignore this extremely dangerous situation between Georgia and Russia? Or did he think that Russia would be contending with the Georgia Bulldogs? How did we get a leader like this?

[skwan91607]

American and EU must advise Georgia to be restrained. There is no winner if a nuclear war breaks up. Russia does not want to have a war neither Americans. Do not forget that any attack to Russia China will not be taking a on-look situation No one will be scotch free after a nuclear war. McCain's talking tough against Russia is proved he is ignorant. Don't expect McCain could give you any protect. He could not even walking straight. It is better to give him something rather than a commander-in-chief to compensate his pain being a POW before.

[ed3541]

Once again, it's all about an oil pipe-line from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea. The USA can do nothing because 2 tiny wars have depleted all its troops. So Russia will win this round.

[Michale32086]

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Even if he was the President all he could do is say "Stop! Or I'll say 'Stop!' again!".
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Ahhhhhh A Robin Williams fan... :D

Michale.....

[rwt1138]

Technically, it's originally Monty Python. But they influenced a lot of great American comedians (I think Steve Martin owes them like, half his act)

[Michale32086]

@Will753

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Russia is too powerful to fool around with.
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Yea, the world thought the same thing about the USSR...

We know how THAT turned out...

Michale.....

[mulegino]

Russia is notoriously ackward as an offensive power (think Finland and Afghanistan), but is unbeatable when on the defensive.

Just ask Napoleon.

The Russians won the ground war in WWII by overwhelming the Wehrmacht with superior numbers of infantry and armor. Had it not been for the Red Army tying down several army groups in the east, the Anglo-American invasion of Normandy wouldn't even have been conceivable.

Thanks to Hollywood, and the fact that it has been 56 years since American armed forces faced a formidable armed force in a land war (Chinese in Korea), Americans seem to subscribe to the Tom Clancy hypothesis-that our armed forces are invincible and uniquely superior to all others.
Such an attitude only feeds the clamor for more and more interventionism-but only against much weaker opponents. Russia doesn't qualify in that respect.

[peterg76]

The Iraqi patriots used to think that about the USA, and we know how that turned out also.

[Michale32086]

Russia is bombing civilian targets in Georgia, not in South Ossetia..

How is this "protecting their citizens"???

Michale.....

[mulegino]

This is a power grab within a power grab. Georgia's leaders, for some reason, thought they could get away with this, right under the nose of Russian infantry and armor massed on the border.
Did they receive some guarantee of support by some as yet unknown government or NATO officials?
Was this designed as a NATO probe of Russian resolve, with the Georgians as the willing or ignorant dupes?
The NATO/U.S./EU plan to encircle Russia has been in progress for quite a while, but the worm appears to be turning. Putin and his protege Medvedev have shown that the limit has been reached , and any further encroachment on Russia's sphere of influence will be met with ferocious resistance.
Russia is not Iraq, Panama, or Grenada, very true.
History has shown that there are two major errors that great powers have made with regards to Russia: overestimating her power and ambitions, and underestimating her strength and resolve.

[Michale32086]

I am simply enthralled by the political bigotry...

It's amazing how EVERY act in the world ultimately ends up as the fault of George Bush...

A bear farts in the woods and it's George Bush's fault...

As I said.. Political bigotry at it's finest...

Michale.....

[athenasword]

Huh?

[Rooster54]

Maybe I missed it, but where does Goldenberg even mention George Bush here ?

[Michale32086]

I was talking about the commenters, not the commentary..

Michale....

[bethinCary]

The US has at least (think I had read 15 bases in Georgia) and they have been trying for years to get us out by raising the rent on the bases..

Alot of this started after Russia broke up--and the US tried to game the now-broken up regions/provinces by extablishing bases to undermine Russia and get control of resources there..
Russia has some of the worlds' most plentiful and rich supply of natural resources found anywhere in the world..

So just like in Afghanistan-where the CIA actually trained OBL and Al Qaeda (or Al CIADA)-the US continues to have a proxy-war in other areas-under Russian noses by establishing bases and planting spies everywhere in the Caspian area..
So the US is no innocent in all of this either..
Like Iraq, but with less imperially-brazen hubris-the US continues to try to influence elections and undermine govts. everywhere in the Caspian region.
If you look at maps, the current wars will show you this WH & GOP strategy (ala Kissinger).
Iran-is just next to this Caspian area of Turkmenistan and other Republics there-while Russia is just on the other side (with Iraq being next to Iran,)
Russias' not stupid though, and has many of its' own spies in said areas too..
Putin is well aware of whats' up-and why he wants another leader like Medvedev-to keep up the press..

[Michale32086]

@Liberoservative

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O's response was a good one... though, I really don't see much difference in McC's response. They both urge restraint and respect for borders...
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The problem with Obama's response is that it is the same mealy-mouthed "It's no one's fault and can't we all just get along" and "oooooo we can't risk making the Russians angry because then they might say something mean back." type response that people have come to expect from the Left..

It's playing politics in a situation that requires a forceful and adamant stand...

Michale....

[laocoon]

If I misquoted your post as much as you misquote Obama you probably wouldnt recognize it.

[rwt1138]

I disagree; Obama's response is not "mealy-mouthed" and "let's all just get along"; it's hardball politics. The bottom line is, we have no dog in this fight. In the end, I don't see why Obama--or any other American--does or should give a rat's ass how or whether the Russians and Georgians get along. It is a strictly regional conflict with no implications on the global resource supply and almost no chance of escalating outside the vicinity (i.e. starting World War Three).

It was McCain's position that was too aggressive, because it tacitly implied that we have a stake; if Russia pushes back forcefully McCain will be forced to back down. Obama left himself plenty of room to maneuver. McCain's forceful command to the Russians will be ignored, making him appear weaker, not stronger. Even if he was the President all he could do is say "Stop! Or I'll say 'Stop!' again!". Better to just leave it alone or say as little as possible.

The sad truth is, we really can't afford to antagonize the Russians ( or anybody of any consequence) these days. We don't have the military force to back it up in any meaningful way and are too economically vulnerable to start pissing off the countries sitting on either a) our massive debt b) lots of oil or c) all of the above. If there were some sort of vital interest at stake here, that would be one thing but there isn't.

[Michale32086]

I disagree..

We DO have a dog in the fight. Georgia has been a staunch ally of the US and is the 3rd largest contributor to Iraq, behind the US and UK...

Obama's response smacks of political expediency.. Nothing more..

Michale....

[Michale32086]

@nk07

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You are an idiot!
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Thank you for your concession that you have no logical and rational argument and therefore must resort to childish and immature personal attacks...

Your concession is appreciated albeit irrelevant.

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

@Uncle Owen

See above...

Russia is clearly in the wrong here.

I am a confirmed and enthusiastic Obama supporter, but he needs to come out firm on this and not let "political considerations" prevent him from doing and saying the right things..

Michale.....

[Michale32086]

@degenerate1991

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A vast majority of south Ossetians are Russian citizens, so its more akin to Georgia invading a Russian province.
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Actually no..

It's more akin to Texas trying to break away from the United States and Mexico sends in troops to protect mexicans that live there.

Who is in the right in that scenario?? Mexico or the US??

Russia is clearly in the wrong here and need to back off...

It's THAT simple...

Michale.....

[Geoffreys]

You already have all knowledge of this conflict and have apparently made your decision. Your boy, Johnny, has as well. Fine. Maybe you've been following the Russian news much more closely than have I.

But, how do you suggest the US mediate a ceasefire when out blaming one side over the other? Do you think the approach will work better with the Russians than it has with the Palestinians or the Syrians?

[laocoon]

Since the US invaded Mexico and secured the lands by force of arms ---- probably Mexico would be in the "right" if we are limited to viewing this through the lens of one country right and the other wrong.

[Michale32086]

Yes and using your reasoning, American Indians would be "right" to come into your home and murder you and your family because your ancestors stole their lands hundreds of years ago...

But such a simplistic and childish view doesn't have much bearing on the here and now, now does it??

Michale.....

[Will753]

America's problem:

US Army is broken and the world knows it.
Georgia is deep within Russia's backyard.
Our Airforce would have to fly thousands of miles to get engaged.
Georgia is out of range for the US Navy.
Any support flown in could be shot down.
Our economy is imploding.
Americans' are tired of War.
Afghanistan and Iraq are not stable.
Iran is growing stronger because of our medling and ignorance.
Israel was already defeated once and as a result are much weaker.
No other country's are willing to get involved in yet another war with the US.

Most importantly:

Russia is no Iraq!
Russia is no Taliban!
Russia is no Iran!
Russia is no Korea!
Russia is no China!
Russia has been disrespected for the last five year's!
Russia's economy is booming!
Russia has consolidated their wealth and power!
Russia's military is huge and powerful! [not to mention rested]
The opportunity they see must be emense!

Even worse for the US is the fact that the "CHIMP" is still in charge! He may not realize that this could very well be our end!

[Michale32086]

Russia is in the WRONG...

Are you saying we should accept Russia's bullying of Georgia for political reasons??

Michale.....

[Heru1]

Grow up