Bring it On
There is an article in today's New York Times about the way Michael Mukasey has been hedging on waterboarding. The difficulty, according to many experts is, as "Jack L. Goldsmith, who served in the Justice Department in 2003 and 2004, wrote in his recent memoir, The Terror Presidency, that the possibility of future prosecution for aggressive actions against terrorism was a constant worry inside the Bush administration." Another expert points out that future prosecutors "...would ask not just who carried it out, but who specifically approved it. Theoretically, it could go all the way up to the president of the United States; that's why he'll never say it's torture."
I have to say that I am both glad and amazed that the Bush administration is with it enough to worry. That is a good sign. And they should worry, because they should be indicted, at least. I hope that they are, and that, indeed, it does "go all the way up to the president". One of the Attorney General's jobs should be making sure not only that the laws are enforced, but also that the laws are actual laws--not opinions by John Yoo or David Addington or some other
administration apologist. There is an exact definition of what a law is in this country, and it is not the same as a partisan legal opinion.
One of the enraging things about the Bush administration is the way that they have consistently written their own rules, as if governing the nation is like playing a game of stealing the flag, where the stronger team, when it finds itself losing, simply changes the score or the rules until they either technically "win" or wear out the other side (and in fact, George W. Bush, according to Gail Sheehy, was well known among his friends for changing the rules of a game until he could engineer a win -- and isn't that how they won in 2000?). To do such things is not "courage" or "resolve", it is tyranny.
Mukasey and other Bush administration officials clearly believe that they are going to put over the idea that they "might have gone too far", but that their "intentions were good" and they "just wanted to protect the country". In such a way, they plan to avoid paying the price for their choices and decisions. The law deals with this sort of defense. Someone whose car hits another person in a crosswalk might have been too frightened to stick around or might not have even
realized he had hit someone, but the law still prosecutes these crimes, because a responsible citizen is expected to conform to the laws no matter what his emotional state. Same with Cheney and Bush. You or I may suspect that they were indifferent to the idea of torture in their names, or possibly relished it, but we will never know that. We do, however, know that they explicitly and knowingly allowed torture. The law has no meaning if they don't have to pay for these crimes.
The number of times the Bush administration has skirted or broken or changed the laws to suit themselves is enormous and outrageous. We cannot hope to correct what they have done to our country without addressing their lawlessness. If this means retroactive prosecution, I say bring it on. The fact that they are worried means they know that they should have known better--in fact, they did know better. All of them.
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Absolutely! A similar example is their wiretapping. They new it was illegal when they authorized it. Bush publicly declared that he understood that wiretapping required a warrant. When it became a public issue they insisted they were too stupid to govern legally and made moves to change the law. But I always asked myself- who is going to pay for the criminal wiretapping that has gone on up till now? Are they holding people based on illegal wiretaps? Has the federal government completely decided to forgo the law?
Anyone who insists that water boarding is not torture should volunteer to demonstrate the enhanced interrogation methods. Really show us by keeping it up till you think you're about to die, then give us a reassessment.
I never understood why everybody wasn't talking about Valerie Blame's case constantly. It was a big story but I sure think a lot more heads should've rolled. Most people somehow just weren't that outraged. I really thought- “this is the one thats gonna go straight to the top. It'll take them all down and bush vowed to at least clean house over it.” It never was. People must just be exhausted by the sad state of affairs.
Well said, Ms. Smiley !
Just say 'impeach', for high crimes and misdemeanors, have Congress get those typed
up, hand it to Kucinich and let the good times
roll!
http://www
"The law has no meaning if they don't have to pay for these crimes."
In wartime, laws go out the window. That's why they keep insisting on a permanent "war" on terror. The problem is in thinking Bush/Cheney etc. are the only criminals. We mostly supported this war at its inception. Who's going to indict us? That's why nothing will ever happen to them even if their own guilty consciences lead them to cover their ass. America's true integrity - or lack of it - is being revealed here. We elected an anti-Christ as our leader. Nuff said.
Your post relates to the quote attributed to Cheney after 9/11 saying, "it will be necessary for us to be a nation of men, and not laws."
This is the credo of the vigilante, and Bush and Cheney have demonstrated the vigilante creed at every opportunity. The vigilante claims it's evil that justifies their action, when deep down they just want to be vigilantes.
What the nation needs is redemption, and that will only occur when we assert that,"it will be necessary for us to be a nation of LAW, and not men."
Jane, the most saddening trend is that nearly ALL elites and politicians are getting away with skirting any laws they feel like ignoring.
If the court system does not get "shored up" in short notice, the USA will be DEAD.
There was never any doubt in my mind that torture and failure to abide by the Geneva Conventions would eventually be exposed under the Bush crime family. The very way they addressed the issue of the Geneva Conventions exposed their intentions.
From the very start, everyone in the Bush Choir was saying that the “detainees” didn’t qualify for the protections of the Geneva Conventions, yet under our own military law ANYONE being held qualifies for the same protections… all military officers are heavily drilled in that law.
Army Regulation 190–8, otherwise known as “Joint Forces Regulation for the Treatment of Enemy Prisoners of War, Retained Personnel, Civilian Internees and Other Detainees”. (Find the complete 86-page document)-
http://www
This document is an official Department of Defense regulatory guideline, which has the force of law in all services of the U.S. Military. It is also based on the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, (commonly known as the GPW), which, because the U.S. Congress ratified it, has the force of law.
This makes the breaking of these regulations by a civilian or military employee of the Department of Defense equally unlawful.
This law makes the people at THE TOP of the chain of command responsible, not the lowly prison guards that have been used as scapegoats.
I think it is time that Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez and the entire lot be sent to the Hague for a war crimes trial.
I am of the opinion that our government, or what used to be our government has abandon the people for profit. We have all been betrayed over and over again by this administration and they will never be prosecuted they will never be impeached and I will be joyfully surprised if there even is an election in Nov of 08. These guys are playing for keeps and they won't be relinquishing "power" any time soon. They aren't really worried about any inquiries, because somehow they will avoid and evade consequences, as usual. How many decades did it take for the Soviet Union to crumble? I'm praying for a miracle but with the clowns in congress who are afraid to take action I am left thinking that the shrub and his cohorts must have "something" on everyone, or there is something in the drinking water or they are all really complicit in this American Tragedy. I am so sorry for us. I would love to see the Dems become big giant thorns in the side of this administration, so that we can watch shrub on TV again whining about how congress isn't meeting him half way. What a laugh. Poor us for having such a person leading our country.
Pelosi should put impeachment back on the table. They may not have the votes (GOP) to succeed but who cares at this point. It would tell America that Bush/Cheney will be called on the torture they approved. History has got to show where these thugs were told to stop that they have broken the law. Bush is now playing more games trying to skirt the Congress with administrative orders. He has got to be stopped - King George has got to be shown the door or at the very least what that door looks like.
I wonder if the law allows for the courts to prosecute both Cheney and Bush and any others that may have committed crimes after they leave office???
There will be no punishment. It's a new culture on both sides of the isle. We know what the creepy republicans have been up to, but...hell
William Jefferson- hides $90,000 stolen money in a turkey in his freezer (blames racism and gets re-elected).
Cynthia McKinney- punches an officer (then blames officers)
Patrick Kennedy- crashes his car on one of his "ambien & alcohol highs" and blames the ambien instead of himself.
Please realize these people ARE ABOVE THE LAW.
The 'law' does not apply to Republicans. Everyone knows that. Now go back to your knitting or whatever womenfolk do.
My: Dante, Pynchon, Pulitzer Prize winning authors? How painful is it to have the cultural wherewithal to see and endure our plight under the kleptocracy that is BushCo., while their machine sends our children to die? Knowing the precise ring of hell, and what Slothrop would say, and how the atrocious acts in Abu Ghraib were carried out: tell me how these things move us to getting these criminals into a court? What process, what leader, will put justice back on the table?
What then, must we do?
It has now been years of woe, years of calling for indictments, investigations, justice. They have raped our country, endangered our citizenry, and ruptured our good relations with the world. How long, Jane, how long, must we wait?
OK Jane, fair enough. President Bush violates laws per your analysis. I still have yet to seen an example where torture took place.
As far as I am concerned, if we extract good intel out of a bad guy by making him "uncomfortable" or get good info by snooping on a bad guy's phone calls, more power to us.
BTW, I was "made to be uncomfortable" when I was in SEER school. It was no fun but I survived. And some day, when you and others can in fact find someone who had this done to them, I'm sure their health will be just as good as yours in not better.
This is a political battle cry by liberals and leftist. They are riding this horse as hard as they can but it is starting to ring hollow.
as usual, jane, you get right to the heart of the matter. it's frustrating, though, because - where's the solution?
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ok, folks... so here's the sitch; remember that all the "players" in this game are lawyers/career politicians, and they've been working on the details of this scheme for about forty-plus years now.
they've figured the angles; they got the people in place; they made the moves. now the chips are on the table.
ok - YOU ARE NANCY PELOSI....
what do you do? WHAT CHARGES DO YOU BRING?
it has to be good, it has to stick and it has to carry all the way to convictions.
remember - CONGRESS GAVE THE PRESIDENT PERMISSION TO ATTACK IRAQ.
http://www
they're all complicit.
begin.
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You're right about that whole 'law has no meaning' thing. And as long as these criminals remain free, it won't. Oh, and with the Dems in control, I'm not holding my breath. Spineless wimps.
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Posted November 1, 2007 | 12:59 AM (EST)