William Ayers and John McCain

Every time I think of William Ayers, I also think of John McCain, because they are of the same era, and they both believed in the efficacy of violence. According to an article in Friday's New York Times, McCain once said of Ayers, "How can you countenance someone who was engaged in bombings that could have or did kill innocent people?" He had to use that "could have or did" because no one knows if bombs Ayers built actually killed anyone -- let's say that the odds are against it. Likewise, no one knows whether the bombs John McCain dropped on North Vietnam ever killed anyone. According to McCain's biography, "With the outbreak of the Vietnam War, McCain volunteered for combat duty and began flying carrier-based attack planes on low-altitude bombing runs against the North Vietnamese. ...On October 26, 1967, during his 23rd air mission, McCain´s plane was shot down during a bombing run over the North Vietnamese capital of Hanoi." Let's say, given those twenty-three bombing runs, the odds are for McCain having killed some innocents. How can you countenance someone who was engaged in bombings that could have or did kill innocent people, John?

But, of course, John McCain's defense is that he was performing his patriotic duty, and that's what William Ayers would have said, too. I remember the Vietnam War. It was not a war of self-defense that the U.S. had to wage or had to win. It was a war of aggression, a waste of resources, lives, manpower, global good will, and national spirit. And, many would say, it was a war crime. Those who were against it viewed their protests as essential patriotism, a way of correcting terrible choices and profound injustices.

According to the New York Times article, William Ayers' case was thrown out of court because of "illegal wiretaps and prosecutorial misconduct", exactly the sort of activities that will get cases brought against the Guantanamo detainees by the Bush Administration thrown out of court. Deja vu all over again.

In the meantime, what about the case against John McCain? The next time he goes abroad, might some enterprising human rights activist step up to him and put him under a citizens' arrest for war crimes and get him hauled off to the The Hague?

I don't think Barack Obama would like that. As snarky and contemptuous as McCain acts toward Obama, I think President Obama would defend McCain. In fact, I think he would feel about him as he does about Ayers -- he's an old man, and the wars he once fought are over and done with. Time to get past fighting old battles. Sometimes I agree with him. But then McCain brings up Williams Ayers again, and I can't help thinking of those bombing runs, and those dead innocents.

Comments

[LewisWalsh]

As much as I admire what has been accomplished in Western Europe and the Scandinavian countries since the second world war, I am disappointed that their efforts to prosecute crimes against humanity has been - with the exception of crimes committed during the afore mentioned war - lacking in prosecutions.

With regard to John McCain: “The next time he goes abroad, might some enterprising human rights activist step up to him and put him under a citizens' arrest for war crimes and get him hauled off to the The Hague?” I assume that if that occurred, his defense would be that: “I was just following orders.” I recall the Nuremberg trials where such a defense got defendants hung. And, that would probably the defense offered by those who ordered the use of cluster bombs and cruise that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents.

In the end, we are all responsible for our actions. There are many of ways that John McCain could have avoided service that included the likely destruction of innocent lives. He chose to be a bomber pilot, he was where he wanted to be and doing what he wanted to do. That is one more reason why I believe that John McCain is a dangerous man to put in charge of the US military establishment.

[homerun]

Mccain thinks Iraq is the Vietnam War. He always says, " We will never surrender" when we have already won on the battlefield. We just need someone to negotiate the peace and I cannot see Mccain or Palin talking to anyone in the world.

[JulieSA]

McCain was responsible for helping Clinton normalize relations with Vietnam. He worked with Vietmamese officials, and backed Clinton up on it. That's one reason Clinton has a lot of respect for him.

[DixieMelody]

In reading through all your posts, I think you have a crush on the old guy.

[ARTIST50]

However, he has fought against release of any papers from the Hanoi Hilton. I have to wonder why. He was the only person to block opening up those papers.

[gro]

Viet Nam was a polarizing war and not simply because of the draft. There are myths on both sides - protests stopped the war, returning servicemen were spit upon (see the book Spitting Image), we could have 'won'.
The neocon fear of withdrawal from Iraq and replacement of US troops by Iraqi comes from the Viet Nam exodus. It was a disaster. Like Viet Nam, however, the more Iraqi civilians suffer and die, the more dire the consequences for America. Look at the history of blowback. Unintended results from US military actions will make it appear to future generations that this administration has a death wish for the country.

[cafemocha]

So very spot-on! Thank you.

[castlerider]

Had we left Nam in 1971 when John Kerry went before Congress wouldn't have made any difference, logistically, historically, or anything that would matter now... Except that 23,000 American soldiers would still be alive.

Downright criminal, if you ask me. And now, THAT'S where we are with this ridiculous "war" in Iraq, which isn't even really a war... It's an occupation.

[ThanksMatt]

Dear Jane Smiley, and there is much more to McCain and Vietnam. I wait for the media to finally bring this to the front pages - again- as obviously it even has been there before. But too many people don’t know about it! I am talking about "McCain and the POW Cover-Up", www.thenation.com (short article) , www.nationinstitute.org (complete article, Schanberg). John McCain was released from prison in Vietnam but at least 600 people were not. Instead of helping his fellow soldiers he decided not to heed their cries for help by denying that their life signs were detected. Though satellite pictures clearly gave evidence of soldier’s numbers and even names written in the grass. Not enough that he denied that this was true. He also helped to create LAWS to block any future investigations about them. He was rude when family members of the missing soldiers wanted to take him to task. He voted against saving the men and women still missing in action. But: a relative of one of those military persons can still sue him for abandoning his fellow Americans when he was in a position to potentially save them. It still could be done. And it should be done! These people need broad support - they hurt and it seems they don't dare to sue him. Further info also vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com

[DixieMelody]

I just cringe every time I hear that "McCain is a hero" crap, spouted ad nauseum by both the Right and the Left and by Independents.

Along with what you have said, and ever so much more about him being a self-centered hothead that cost (at the very least) millions of dollars in planes he destroyed, is the evidence that points to him being NOT a hero in the USS Forestall fire that cost 134 lives, but rather having CAUSED the fire by wet starting his plane to scare the pilot behind him, and then when that sparked a fire under his plane, he panicked and dropped the two bombs.

McCain was the only uninjured person involved in that tragedy who was whisked off by helicopter (on his father's orders) to safety (from the wrath of those who were witnesses to what happened).

McCain dubbed himself Maverick/Hero and has always been a legend in his own mind, always emotionally removed from the misery he has inflicted on others.

[JulieSA]

No. That's completely false. It's another nutty conspiracy theory.

[longnow]

Thats a pretty stupid analogy, but then again, you had to write something, right?
This would be excellent fodder to be picked up on Merkin's, I mean, Malkin's site.
Both sides are so glad to get an attractive female who actually knows or cares
about politics and global affairs that they will take just about anything. You are miles ahead of
Malkin even at your worst.

[appleknocker]

Does anyone know what kind of "military" targets McCain was bombing when apprehended?

[celticjag]

When shot down, McCain was bombing the power station in the center of Hanoi. In fact most ,if not all of his bombing missions, were targeted in civilian areas. He also wanted to bomb Soviet ships in Haiphong harbor, of course that would have led to a wider, if not nuclear, war! But what the hell, Country First.

[bigOther]

Well we do have a hint: see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFM1xqqTX_g -- some say he broadcast for the N. Vietnamese that schools were targeted... It would be important at some time for someone to verify whether (as I recall at the time) he 'cracked' under torture and did this, or not.

[JulieSA]

Schools were not targeted. Soem of POWs made confessions in which they said they di bomb schools, but they said that only after extreme torture.

The POWs were tortured into fake confessions, so their confessions could be used for propaganda purposes. And look--it's still working. After all these years, there are still people stupid enough to believe those false confessions they made.

[JulieSA]

He freely admits that he broke under torture and made false confessions. He even said this in his convention speech. It's not something that needs to be verified.

[spillersgirl]

Appleknocker -- see my comment -- I think the "Rolling Stone" article "Make Believe Maverick" ( by Dickinson) may answer your question. It's worth your time to read it!

[TRYKER]

The Rolling Stone Article said he was bombing a power plant, that had been bombed before and they had just rebuilt it...a power plant.

[healinghawk]

Anyone who thinks the Vietnam war is over isn't paying attention. The lesson of Vietnam (resource wars don't work) was not learned, thus it was repeated in Iraq, by the same people who ran the Vietnam war in the Nixon administration. Duh.

Disabled Vietnam vets continue to fight the VA, forty years after the fact, struggling to get compensated for service-connected disabilities. The VA continues to deny that the air gun inoculations they gave us in boot camp caused our hep C. Just a few years ago, they denied that air gun inoculation were used. We have about a 65% incidence of hep C, compared to a 3% incidence for vets of other wars, and we're dying of liver cancer we did nothing to cause.

Militarism rules the VA system. Funding is a DoD budget item, and the Pentagon sees every dollar spent on the VA as a dollar that can't be spent waging war.

Vietnam vets are the reason Iraq and Afghanistan vets didn't get the same treatment we got, and continue to get. In too many places in the VA's national system, vets with PTSD are seen as malingerers gaming the system for a handout.

War continues for wounded vets for the remainder of their lives, as long as the VA is dependent on DoD for funding.

[musselmanm]

Thank you very much for your post. We as a nation must become informed of your problems which have not been addressed in so many ways. We now are facing a new set of problems for our veterans coming home from our new wars and occupations.
I was one that disagreed with the war then and I disagree with the wars today.
I love our people that serve and have served protecting us from harm from other nations.
As has been shown for many years now, we cannot trust our government to protect us from harm from our government. Thank God for the men and women with honor! Our Vets!

[hippynanainblingland]

Musselmanm:

I've let a lot of obvious opportunities to comment on articles and comments pass recently because the news has been so intense lately I've been overwhelmed, but I can't let this comment pass without further comment, brother: Most of the time, since the end of WWII, our people have not really "served protecting us from harm from other nations", but in reality, our young have been duped into believing such is true.

Prove to me that Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait and Iraq meant us harm, and I'll then agree that that's what our young are giving up their lives, health and sanity for.

Forgive the coming scream, brother, I mostly agree with your sentiments if not with your stated fact, but the truth is closer to this: our young have been wasted in wars INSURING THAT THE MONEYED POWERFUL PEOPLE CAN GET AWAY WITH LOOTING THE WORLD'S RESOURCES FOR THEIR FURTHER ENRICHMENT, PURE AND SIMPLE!!!!!

All the more reason why they (the young and their families) should be properly recompensed by the rest of us for their sacrifices.

Blessings.

Obama/Biden 2008

[spillersgirl]

Thank you Healinghawk! My dad was a 100% disabled Veteran. The VA has many problems. By and large my dad received good medical treatment while he was alive. However, I have never forgiven the VA for allowing my father's death to be an experience that was utterly degrading. They shipped him from one nursing home to another over a span of just three months before he died. I will never forget the torture that the VA put my family through during those months. Our soldiers need to experience a death with diginity -- a VA hospice is needed (if there is such a place I've never heard of it).

[littlebuddylouie]

The Taliban were the good guys when we were providing them arms and money to fight the Soviets.
Saddam was a good guy when we were providing him arms to fight Iran.
Arafat was a terrorist for years until we were forced to deal with him, then he became a "statesman".
Fifteen of the 9/11 hijackers hailed from our old mideast ally, Saudi Arabia, (none were from Iraq).

I'm sick of hearing the McCain camp attack Obama for being open to negotiate with "terrorists" when the the truth is, we always have. I don't know why the media doesn't point that out more often.
I'm sick of hearing staunch "pro-life" politicians express such a high regard for the "sanctity of human life", while easily dismissing as "collateral damage" the thousands of civilians that are killed in their wars.
I'm sick of being lied to by our own government, sick of simplistic sloganeering and rationalizations such as, "they hate us for our freedom". Not necessarily, in many cases, "they" hate us because history shows they have reasons for doing so.
Mostly, I'm sick of being lied to by our own government, and the biggest lie of this entire election is that John McCain is going to change anything.

[spillersgirl]

Well said Little Buddy :)

[Macawmom]

Technically, the only way we gave money to the Taliban during the Soviet-Afghan war was to give it to Pakistan, which is where they come from. The money inside Afghanistan was given to the Mujahideen, which were largely Afghan tribal people, largely from Northern Afghanistan. Mazzoud was the popular leader, he was later assassinated by the Taliban during the post-war Civil War. There were also "Afghan Arabs' who came from other countries to fight in Afghanistan, that would include Bin Laden, who likes the Taliban but is not Talibany. He just agrees with their conservatism, but he's a Saudi conservative, not a Pakistani one. The Taliban were invited in by some in Afghanistan after the Soviets left and the country had disintergrated into civil war (and the US forgot about them). Somebody needed to take control, and Pakistan has historical ambitions regarding Afghanistan, so in came the Taliban. They didn't take over until 1996,. long after the end of the Soviet-Afghan war.

[littlebuddylouie]

I stand corrected on that point, thank you.

[Danigirl65]

Very well put points, Jane. Even while we look with chagrin at the number of our servicemen that have been killed and maimed in Iraq, I can't help but wonder about the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's this occupation (notice I DON'T call it a war) has done the same to.

Although I don't condone Ayer's actions in the 60's, I also understand the thought of being patriotic in his stance. As the child of borderline hippies, I understand the passion with which these people opposed this unjust war. Many of our returning servicemen joined the movement upon their return.

Tying Obama to Ayers' is almost pathetic in it's stretch considering his actions were over 40 years ago and his case was dismissed. He has made a new life for himself and, though I'm sure he strongly believes what he did 40 years ago was right, has made a great and lasting contribution to society as a teacher.

I am sure that Mr. Ayers' views John McCain's actions in Vietnam with equal disgust. Even though he only saw 20 hours of combat time, he probably killed some innocent people. Mr. Ayers never killed anybody, as far as we know.

[Dynamohum]

John McCain obviously learned nothing from his experiences as a POW and as a bombing jet pilot. Instead of learning of the folly and destruction of war, he is willing to sound the alarm and bang the drums of war towards any number of countries.

It is quite compelling that he still clings to the failed policies in Iraq, advocating for occupation for who nows how many years. He is ready to go after Russia, He is ready to go after Iran, He is ready to go after Venezuala, He is ready to go after Spain, He is ready for another surge in Afghanistan, When does it end? When does the approach change? For John McCain no option other than agression and occupation seem to cross his mind.

For someone whose campaign is busy trying to associate Barack Obama with so many controversial people, some of whom he only met once briefly, the pot is calling the kettle b........!

While John McCain may have served his country honorably 40 years ago, he is dishonoring his country and its citizens, by his blatent disregard for our safety, security and prosperity.

[contemporarymom]

McCains concern for this country is steeped in reality. Unlike Dem views who sat by when the Cole was attacked. Dems who missed the opportunity to get Bin Laden. Dems whose negotiation skills have never done anything for us.

[Fez]

Dems who missed the opportunity to get Bin Laden? Let me spell it out in one-syllable words that you too might understand. George W. Bush did not choose to get Bin Laden. Bush chose to invade Iraq and to leave Bin Laden alone somewhere on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Democrats have been arguing from 9/12/01 for us to get Bin Laden. McCain's concern for this country is dwarfed by his concern for himself.

[JulieSA]

"that he still clings to the failed policies in Iraq"

No, he's the one that was calling for a CHANGE in the tactics in Iraq, as the situation deteriorated there in 2006. The counterinsurgency strategy and addition of troops led to the success of the "surge", which even Obama admits is evident, as do 58% of the American people. Iraq is making steady political progress now BECAUSE of what McCain advocated.

[Freesia2]

The difference for McCain, if I had to guess, is that he believes that because he was at war in a uniform, under orders from another man in uniform, killing innocents in the name of a greater cause....well that's totally different from the mindset of a war protestor going to war for what he saw as a greater cause (ending that war) and was doing it in blue jeans and long hair.

And in both cases it's absolutely tragic. I was a little girl during Viet Nam, and whatever it was about that war the one thing I remember was that all the grown ups around me wanted only to forget.

[FogBelter]

The trend in Vietnam was to posthumously declare vietnamese civilian casualties, Vietcong ,,, the vietnamese knew better and that is why the battle for hearts and minds in Vietnam was lost , and ultimately the war as well.

McCain,as a pilot in vietnam, definitely killed innocent civilians while bombing ... there weren't any "smart" bombs then (as if there really are any now) and dropping the payload indiscriminately on populated civilian areas results in the killing of innocent civilians. It doesn't matter whether the pilots can comprehend this ... it is the case.

As for Ayers, I think Patty Hearst with the SLA did more damage than he ever did and she is a celebrity now. Ayers was involved in his radical activities when Obama was 8 years old, Ayers is a private citizen now and, to my understanding, was never convicted of anything. Americans don't think things through and that is why our nation is on the fast track to misery.

[spacepac]

"Americans don't think things through and that is why our nation is on the fast track to misery"

I would venture to go as far as to say that many don't think at all. They swallow a lot of garbage they see on TV simply because "it makes sense" and "they wouldn't say it if it weren't true." There doesn't seem to be any drive to inform themselves beyond 30-second soundbites. It's the only explanation for the continued enthusiasm for McCain/Palin.

[JulieSA]

Actually, there were some smart bombs at the time, and the US forces weren't indiscriminate.

The carrier group that McCain flew with had the highest shootdown rate of the war, because they were required to fly at low level and dive on the target so they would hit it precisely.

[FogBelter]

From the civilian casualties reported in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan now from US Airstrikes and with all the bells and whistles they have going for them, it's hard to believe that we were more precise in 1967.

[Lenyon]

There are none less flexible than the elderly.Most of us know people who despite new ideas(racial,ethnic,political,social)behave and seemingly say outrageous things. Why do we expect any less from McCain.72yrs. old. We Americans refuse to openly fully admit OUR history. McCain doesn't fully admit the Facts that, we the People sent military to Vietnam, (military's kill, that's all) We know it was to reinforce French colonialism, then punish the ones that kicked the French out.He does not forgive the Vietnamese for his suffering. What an insult to the world. He tried and properly killed hundreds of people living their lives, not conspiring against America until we came there. He wishes he had never been shot-down and had been able to fly at least a hundred combat bombing runs. BOMBS KILL PEOPLE.

[IowaGirl]

Like Jane, I have often wondered at the fact that our world holds up as a hero someone who terrorized innocent civilians from the sky with his bombs. OF COURSE McCain's bombs killed some...more likely, MANY. He was a POW precisely because he was terrorizing the Vietnamese countryside with his bombing raids. Other returning Vietnam veterans have expressed shame, confusion, and/or rage that they were sent on this godforsaken mission. Never McCain. His is a black and white, good and evil mentality, with his side always the "right" side. Of course he was a young man, under orders, etc. But his biggest regret about that war seems to be that we "lost" it, not that it was outrageously unjust and that he was made a tool for our criminal foreign policy in SE Asia.

Like Bush, he doesn't seem to lose much sleep over his own misbehavior or shameful choices. Both men seem to get most riled up when they are challenged by the little people. We have to reflect them back at twice their size, as the saying goes, or they feel abused and neglected.

It all comes of American's exceptionalist mentality. Most Americans are so brainwashed they don't even realize the rest of the world finds us less than exceptional.

[klondiker]

Jane, while I agree with you 100% and think that you bring up a great point, I don't think that this is a convincing argument for many Americans.

Most Americans will not equate John McCain's bombings during Vietnam with William Ayers's allegded bombings. Again, I see your point, but I don't think that most Americans will equate an American soldier's actions with that of a subversive group. Not only this, but this is a potentially dangerous comparison to make because it gives right-wing lunatics the amunition to use against the Democrats because they claim that we, on the left, think of the military as terrorists.

A more effective strategy, I think, is to call on McCain's gutter politics. As Obama has said in the past, this is an attempt to smear him by linking him to something that Ayers did when Obama was 8 years old.