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Jared Bernstein

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Greece and the Eurozone: What to Expect When You're Expecting the Unknowable

Posted: 05/18/2012 9:15 am

More out there today on the possibility of Greece leaving the Eurozone. The New York Times is a bit less pessimistic than the Washington Post, but if you're looking for something new to get nervous about, here you go. Better yet, I'll summarize: we don't know the outcome, but it will be ugly. Of course, it's already ugly, and that's worth remembering.

In terms of global reverberations, investors from other countries have been pulling out of Greece for a while. Claims by foreign banks in Greece are now down to below $100 billion, compared to $600-700 billion in Spain and Italy. From the Washington Post:

Of the country's $430 billion in outstanding public debt, well over half is owed to the International Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank and other European institutions. The original worry -- that French and German banks might fail because of large holdings of Greek bonds that might not be repaid -- has been largely erased. Over the past two years those bonds have been sold or the losses on them absorbed when the debt write-down occurred this year.

History also has favorable lessons of countries that decoupled from a currency peg and did a lot better than everyone expected, with Argentina the most recent example. After a period of indebtedness and IMF imposed austerity, they broke their dollar peg in 2002 and defaulted on their debt. Their economy suffered deeply for about a year, but the upside was they could now devalue their currency. That helped to set off a solid growth phase, as the Argentine economy grew over 8% per year over the next six years, employing human and physical capital that had been sitting idle during the austerity years. Sound familiar?

But the risks here are great and, of course, go well beyond Greece. If global capital decides that bigger, more connected countries like Spain and Italy are next to leave the zone, it will be up to the European Central Bank and the Germans to support them, and Paul Krugman, for one, isn't optimistic.

As I noted yesterday, any disaster scenario of what might happen has to take account of the current mess, with punishing levels of unemployment, grueling uncertainty re what tomorrow holds, and the seeds of deep social unrest. There's no happy ending from where we are, and the idea that the euro should be protected at all costs heavily discounts those costs.

Which takes me back to my terse summary: we don't know how this bounces. It's good that exposures have been lessened, but over to big Ben (Bernanke) for the last word:

"If there is a major financial problem in Europe," Mr. Bernanke told Congress in February, "there will be so many different channels on which that will affect our financial system that I would not want to take too much comfort from" the fact that the financial system has little direct exposure to Greece.

This post originally appeared at Jared Bernstein's On The Economy blog.

 
 
 

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Viper
Former repub, still repenting
07:58 AM on 05/19/2012
Lets not forget from which country this world depression imminated from.. again..US... and because they bought 30% of our Wall Street junk..
Viper
Former repub, still repenting
07:54 AM on 05/19/2012
The biggest problem and which all of our other problems tie to is.. 1) trade deficts and not making anything... we are the only major economy with huge trade deficts. Trade defiict are a permanent loss of wealth each year.. and given the high economic multiplier effect of MFG,a 30% hit to our economy!

2) Too make up for the outsourcing of 80% of our private industry, the repub solution has been to create the largest socialist enterprise in the world, the U.S. military as a red state jobs programs...the irony.

Regards
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ruolivert
03:18 PM on 05/19/2012
Democrats have not have much of a problem buildign up the war machine either.
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Edward Lucie-Smith
Art historian, photographer, poet
07:34 AM on 05/19/2012
The Greeks have always felt that their country deserves special status because of its contribution. thousands of yeasr ago, to the formation of European culture and European political democracy. Whether this argument is vald in the present case is open to doubt. The more recent history of Greece, since the end of World War II, suggests that there is a real danger of a collapse of democratic institutions as a result of the present crisis. A military junta rulled Greece from 1967 to 1974. It is not unthinkable than there could be a coup and a return to military rule is Greece is forced out of the euro.
06:56 AM on 05/19/2012
IN EUROPE THE CALL IT A BAILOUT ----in canada it is called EQUALIZATION PAYMENTS ---that is where the rich provinces contribute taxes to the federal government and are redistributed to the poorer provinces so that the whole country can enjoy the same standard of living --

just think of european " countries " as provinces in the country called the eurozone ------
Viper
Former repub, still repenting
07:48 AM on 05/19/2012
Thats is no dfference than here where the Blues states pay in far more to the FED government than the red states, who then on avg get back 50% more in fed money than they pay in for the past 50 years.

They are our Greeces, just Greece has not been getting Blue state( northerm EU) welfare for 50 years.

How ironic that red state econonomic ideas work so well, that they are our poorest states, with the highest per capita food stamps/welfare... if you want to see how the repubs race to the bottom works-low wages.., just look to the south...


Regards
07:59 AM on 05/19/2012
exactly ---in north america the payments are routinely made ---in europe ---it creates a "crisis" ---because the "states/provinces " want to retain "nationalism "


the eurozone needs a "federal government " but no one wants to surrender sovereignty
06:51 AM on 05/19/2012
greece is to germany --what the US is to china -----

and the problem is the currency arrangement -----in the great world of international trade --floating/sinking currencies are supposed to balance/redress trade imbalances ----

but both germany and greece use the euro -and china has pegged its currency to the dollar ---

the result is one partner exploits its competitive advantages and is getting very rich while the other gets impoverished

for germany to bail out greece is a recognition that the currency set up being fixed via the euro needs redress via a return of some wealth to the partner being hurt by fixed currency

china may have to do the same with the US ---IE---- FORGIVE SOME DEBT

kicking greece out of the euro is a recognition that the central problem is that FIXED CURRENCIES across areas of disparate productivity capabilities are a cause of the problem
Viper
Former repub, still repenting
07:50 AM on 05/19/2012
Know greece is to gremany, what red states are to blue states..... except unlike red states, greece has not been getting welfare payments for the past 50 years.
04:37 AM on 05/19/2012
The travel writer Rick Steve's explained that the European financial crisis is due to the entitlement society mentality that pervades Europe. Once Europeans get over this notion of a free ride all will be well, at least from an American tourist guide perspective.

Source: Rick Steve's Europe Travel Special on KCTS 9, Saturday May 19th, 1:30 AM.
09:35 PM on 05/19/2012
He doesn't know what he's talking about. There are EU countries that are faring very well - the most heavily taxed and regulated countries with the most robust safety nets fared better than the US did during the crash. The problem with the peripheral countries is they can't compete with the stronger countries, and forcing them to go on the Euro and lose their own fiat currency made economic problems worse. Germany has profited at the expense of the peripheral countries, especially Greece.

Greece's initial problem was that its debt ratio was too high to meet the standards for entry into the EU, but with the "help" of Goldman Sachs, from which Goldman profited mightily, they managed to fudge their books enough for entry. That meant when they crash hit and they had to bail out their banks, the economy wasn't robust enough to withstand it.
09:35 PM on 05/19/2012
Part II: In addition, Greece has had corrupt governments that issued massively inflated crony contracts for things the Greek people neither wanted nor needed, and stuck them with the bill. Some of those were for Greece's massive military. Even the bailouts weren't what they seemed. At least one of them came with strings attached, requiring Greece to turn that money right back around to purchase military jets, helicopters and subs from French and German companies.

Because the Greek government was so corrupt, tax avoidance became a way of life, with the wealthy better able to shelter their wealth from the tax man. The Greek safety net wasn't particularly robust by EU standards.

Too bad Rick Steve doesn't know anything about economics and didn't look into the very different circumstances surrounding the difficulties some of the EU countries experienced.
03:49 AM on 05/19/2012
It is not true that the global capital will decide that Spain and Italy are next to leave the Eurozone, because global capital is already out from these countries, which are currently driven by EBC. The main factor determining the future of these countries is their ability to pay off debts. It is impossible to stimulate economy with borrowed money forever and Greece is an example. The money which Greece borrowed from other countries did not create any value in the economy of Greece. The money were simply been eaten. For iPhones (made in China), for BMW (made in Germany) etc. And US economy is on similar path.
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Randolph Greer
I am a Poet .
02:08 AM on 05/19/2012
I was a bit surprised to see some wise comments today. Perhaps the conservatives have the day off. They are known for taking long weekends while workers starve. Then again, maybe some 201 Economics is creeping back into fashion. But, I think it more likely that those who think for a living are finally freeing themselves from the "Job Creators Dogma" invented by Frank Luntz. Common Sense will always prevail in the end because you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Economies only function if the people who spend in a society ( the middle class + the poor ) have access to capital. Economies only decline when the rich rig the system to hoard it. Of all the aspects of society, economics is the easiest to understand and the most difficult to run effectively. Not because of ignorance , but because of selfishness, avarice, fear, fraud, corruption, and injustice. And those have more to do with immorality than ignorance.
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ruolivert
03:30 PM on 05/19/2012
Its common sense to think that rich people don't spend?
09:39 PM on 05/19/2012
The wealthiest 400 people in America control as much wealth as the bottom 50% - 150 million people. How many cars and houses can that 400 buy compared to the number the bottom 150 million could buy if they had money in their pockets?
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11:30 PM on 05/18/2012
http://danieljmitchell.wordpress.com/2012/05/08/paul-krugman-and-the-european-austerity-myth/

All of this austerity talk in europe is, for the most part, garbage. Fun fact: The countries that actually made real cuts are doing better in the long run than those that didn't.
Viper
Former repub, still repenting
07:56 AM on 05/19/2012
NOT TRUE.. more BS.... I have relatives in England...lol...
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JudgeMoonbox
10:16 PM on 05/18/2012
Maybe Germany should leave the Euro Zone. That way, they could stagnate in self-righteousness as much as they desire while the rest of Europe recovers from the Great Recession.
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08:42 PM on 05/18/2012
The momentous question  on which the existence of governments depend will be decided by answering this question:   " Will the lenders or the debtors (or a combination) be required to repay the debt to investors while reconstructing effective, efficient fair economic systems?"
  It can be argued that the fundamental fallacy in Western capitalism, perhaps in economic systems in every culture and empire, is permitting private unrestrained money lenders to gain the upper hand and monopolistic capitalism to go a muck.   Once these conjoined forces control the economy they also corrupt the politics and corrupt the liberal government, whether through force or fraud. 
   In our present time of international monopoly and finance, there is a distinct possibility of a world dictatorship of oligarchs backed by the military might of a single nation.  The entire earth would be engulfed by totalitarianism  and despotism of the few capitalists left standing. Such are the fruits of unrestrained money and banking bonded to monopolistic capitalism. The people of the earth would return to serfdom and the matrix of nature.
09:12 PM on 05/18/2012
I do not necessarily disagree, but there more in this unusual situation. Reality of the Eurozone is each nation is incentivised to cheat, that is to deficit spend, because the inflationary and other harmful effects of the deficit spending is spread among all the other Eurozone nations. It is in every interest of Greece to delay delay delay because they are living free on others' dimes. And they do not like Germans very much. Greece is profiting from its behavior. When it is kicked out, it will deny its debts and restart its own currency. Greece comes out ahead.

If Greece was playing this game with its own currency, the Drachma, then, yes, banks have the powers you details. But I think the Euro confederation is a different street. Greece has an exit strategy, "we dare you to kick us out."
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09:48 AM on 05/19/2012
F&F.  Big secure loans are  the banker's dream that results in huge commissions.  What wa lacking was regulation over the banks and borrowers.  The Greek bosses were lying about their capability to repay.  The bank bosses had no incentive to verify the numbers on the loan application.  When the loan went sour, the gracious, magnanimous European  confederation would bail them out. What happened was the opposite.  Bad lending to Greece compounded the crisis.
   In our own nation the bad loans and obligations were accepted by a corrupt government and Federal Reserve for future leaders to contend.  The future arrived earlier than expected.
RSGmusic
Instrumental music is great
09:57 PM on 05/18/2012
No, it means that america is headed the wrong direction economically, Austery will collapse the america, then the present militaries who have enough N weapons will divide in 3 to 5 differnent teams and the one who flinches first may very well desroy the earth. the Boomers on all sides would create anarchism. THe best place to be would be Austrialia, South africa or S america to avoid n fallout.
Mochilero
Have backpack, will travel
08:39 PM on 05/18/2012
Mr. Quillerm, our huge debt came from two illegal foreign wars and the Bush tax cuts. Did you really expect Obama to wave some kind of magic wand and clean up all the damage after the Cheney Administration drove the country into a ditch?
09:14 PM on 05/18/2012
Magic wand? Was not that Pres. Obama's trillion dollar "stimulus?"
Mochilero
Have backpack, will travel
11:12 PM on 05/18/2012
Everyone knew that wasn't going to be nearly enough. Lack of cojones. Which has nothing to do with the cause of the wreck.
08:08 PM on 05/18/2012
The two countries that did austerity and got labor concessions are the ones doing the best. England and Germany. Cause and effect that withstands all empirical scrutiny.
09:18 PM on 05/18/2012
Free money will always appeal to politicians. Democrats call it Keynesianism, Republicans call it something else. But only in America could a party like Republicans call for massive deficit spending and at the same time think of themselves as prudent. The money really isn't free when it is financed by T-bonds which soak up credit that could have been available to the economy.
08:13 AM on 05/19/2012
Everyone in the country should be for massive spending cuts today.
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Randolph Greer
I am a Poet .
10:10 PM on 05/18/2012
Well, if you are going to tell a lie, make it a big one.
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Alex Prior
Abyssum abyssus invocat
11:10 PM on 05/18/2012
Yes. That is a big lie. For starters, both the UK and Germany have automatic fiscal stabilisers that allow their leaders to say "austerity" while not quite doing it.

Unlimited unemployment benefit is one of these. As unemployment rises, the government automatically spends more on unemployment benefit, regardless of the budget.

Germany also carried out a large fiscal stimulus package early on.

The countries that are doing the best are those that chose the fiscal stimulus route. My own country, Australia, used a large fiscal stimulus and saw a 0.1% rise in unemployment that has since vanished, and has just returned to a balanced budget.

What essentially went wrong in the US was that when the federal government applied fiscal stimulus, many of the states applied austerity, virtually cancelling the stimulus out. Nevertheless, the federal government had gone the other way, things would have been much worse.
08:05 PM on 05/18/2012
Profligate spending and debt is the root cause of the problem. Root Cause. Everything else is a symptom. America? Profligate spending and debt. And we are fighting still over who gets more, when we need to stop spending so much. Spending. Not taxes. Spending. Taxes always go up and down. Spending keeps going Up and Up. Spending is the root cause.
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jamenta
There are other human values besides greed.
11:27 PM on 05/18/2012
Same old tired argument that Americans have been hearing now from a right-wing - whom whenever they have a president in office - will spend like there is no tomorrow.

The root of our problem is greed and an extremist ideology that is willing to take down the nation and subvert our democracy - just to remain in power.
08:23 AM on 05/19/2012
The same argument because there is NO hope nor change with Obama.  Obama is wrong and should try something else if he wants to fix the country.  We know were Obama's way ends.  So - no CHANGE with Obama.  The argument stands.
08:14 PM on 05/21/2012
Obama is not fixing the root cause.  Being fiscally responsible is not extreme.  You are.
12:56 AM on 05/19/2012
If the Greek government would have lived within its mean for the past few decades, then they would not face this problem today.

It is so incredibly easy to believe we should have all sorts of entitlements. In the end, those entitlements will strangle you.

America is going to have a day of reckoning in the not too distant future. We can not possibly fulfill all the promised SSI, medicare, and Obama-care spending. Sadly, some people will be utter shocked when it happens. Too bad they weren't paying attention now. Unless we accept austerity now, we will pay for it doubly in the future.
09:07 AM on 05/19/2012
The next meltdown will be our government.
10:40 PM on 05/19/2012
Whether we grow our way out of this or collapse is entirely a political choice. Slash government spending that goes to people who need and will spend it while giving an average of $250,000 in tax cuts to the wealthy isn't a recipe for either creating jobs or paying down the debt. How can you even begin to think the GOP plan would do anything other than destroy the middle class, further impoverish the poor, and accelerate the transfer of wealth to the top 1%?

We don't have to destroy the safety nets in order to balance the budget. Government revenues are at 14% of GDP instead of the historical average of 18% to 19%. We MUST have more revenue. Letting the Bush tax cuts expire and returning them to the Clinton levels would go a long way toward balancing the budget. The ACA, too, will bring down health care spending, which is one of the driving factors of our economic problems. But the last thing any sane economist would suggest would be to take money out of the pockets of those who are barely surviving as it is.
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freedomny
99% = TBTF
07:59 PM on 05/18/2012
"More out there today on the possibility of Greece leaving the Eurozone."

They will be out...it is just a matter of time (like months). I don't blame them and think it might actually be a good thing for them to pave their own road.

And, if there is a domino effect, that ultimately effects the US - then we will all have to figure our own roads.
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jamenta
There are other human values besides greed.
11:29 PM on 05/18/2012
I agree. Unless there is some sudden 180 degree miracle shift by the EU (which is extremely unlikely) - it's not a matter of if but when.
10:51 PM on 05/19/2012
I think Greece would be well-advised to follow the lead of Argentina, Iceland, Ecuador and whatever other countries have defaulted. The draconian austerity measures insisted upon by their creditors do nothing but contract the economy. They're borrowing at exhorbitant rates, so that they're simply getting farther and farther behind. That results in calls for more austerity which shrinks the economy further, meaning they're even less likely to ever be able to repay the debt or get out from under the austerity measures.

If they get out of the EU, abandon the Euro and adopt their own fiat currency again, they'll have the ability to partially inflate their way out of the problem. It will be painful for a year or two but then the economy will begin to take off.

Austerity is never an effort to save a country's economy, but rather to save the investments of investors who made what they knew were risky and sometimes unscrupulous bets, by taking it out of the hides of the people who had nothing to do with causing the problem in the first place.