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Jason Rosenhouse

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What One Atheist Learned From Hanging Out With Creationists

Posted: 03/21/2012 5:47 pm

In May 2000 I began a post-doctoral position in the Mathematics Department at Kansas State University. Shortly after I arrived I learned of a conference for homeschoolers to be held in Wichita, the state's largest city. Since that was a short drive from my home, and since anything related to public education in Kansas had relevance to my new job, I decided, on a whim, to attend.

You might recall that Kansas was then embroiled in a battle over state science standards. A politically conservative school board had made a number of changes to existing standards, including the virtual elimination of evolution and the Big Bang. This was very much on the mind of my fellow conference attendees, most of whom were homeschooling for specifically religious reasons. The conference keynoters all hailed form Answers in Genesis, an advocacy group that endorses creationism.

As a politically liberal mathematician who accepted the scientific consensus on evolution, this was all new to me. Curious to learn more, I struck up conversations with other audience members and participated in Q&A sessions whenever I could. The Wichita conference became the first of many that I attended over the next decade. This immersion in the creationist subculture taught me a few things about America's hostility to evolution.

Some of what I learned was predictable. Though my conversation partners typically spoke with great confidence on a variety of scientific topics, it was rare that they really understood much about the theory they so despised. For me this problem was especially acute when they discussed mathematics. I lost track of how many times folks would tell me that probability theory refuted evolution, and then defend their view with absurd calculations bearing no resemblance to reality. If you are possessed of even a rudimentary understanding of basic science, then you quickly realize the extent to which they have neglected their homework.

Also unsurprising was the insularity I found. For many of the people I met, evangelical Christianity represented a tiny island of righteousness adrift in a sea of secular evil. At virtually every conference one or more speakers would warn of the seductions of "the world's" wisdom, which is to say the world outside of their own tiny enclave. As they saw it, evolution was just one tool among many in the arsenal of God's enemies.

But I also learned some things that surprised me. On many occasions I asked people the blunt question, "What do you find so objectionable about evolution?" Never once did anyone reply, "It is contrary to the Bible." Conflicts with Scripture were certainly an issue, and these concerns arose almost inevitably if the conversation persisted long enough. They were never the paramount concern, however. It is not as though they thought evolution was an intriguing idea, but felt honor bound to reject it because the Bible forced them to. Instead, they flatly despised evolution, usually for reasons having nothing to do with the Bible.

They were horrified, for example, by the savagery and waste entailed by the evolutionary process. You can imagine how it looks to them to suggest that a God of love and justice, who declares his creation to be "very good," would employ a method of creation which rewards any behavior, no matter how cruel or sadistic, so long as it inserts your genes into the next generation.

And what are we to make of humanity's significance in Darwin's world? Tradition teaches we are the pinnacle of creation, unique among the animals for being created in God's image. Science tells a different story, one in which we are just an incidental, unintended byproduct of a lengthy evolutionary process. It is logically possible these stories are just two facets of the same reality, but there appears to be serious tension here nonetheless. Nor should we ignore the pernicious effect of evolution on the traditional argument from design. To accept evolution is to accept that if we are the result of a divine plan, it is one that was set in motion billions of years ago. For many, such a God is simply too far away.

Many Christians have resolved these issues to their own satisfaction. The literature defending "theistic evolution" is large and erudite. I can understand, though, why so many people are not impressed with such efforts. Too often the arguments therein just seem hollow, ad hoc or even desperate. They seem like so much armchair philosophy, as though the writer thinks the task of reconciliation is accomplished when a logically possible scenario containing both God and evolution, no matter how implausible, is produced. More than anything else, my time with the creationists has shown me that the task of reconciling science with faith is far more difficult than is sometimes pretended.

If, indeed, it can be accomplished at all.

 
 
 
 
 
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Guy DeWhitney
Non-Partisan Pro-Liberal, Anti-theocracy Moderate
08:36 PM on 04/17/2012
"You've all been shown many times before, mesiah's pointed to the door, but no-one had the guts to leave the temple." - Pete Townshend
Itis possible, if you think outside the box that we call "organised" religion, and look at what it means to be human in this thing we call reality.
http://guydewhitney.com
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TheTightwireGuy
Attempting to balance reason and passion
07:50 PM on 04/07/2012
Also, who among Amercian Creationists would call for and follow the Jubilee year rule of returning property to the family it was purchased from?

"In the Year of Jubilee the field must be returned to the person from whom he purchased it, the one who inherited it as family property."
New Living Translation (©2007)
http://bible.cc/leviticus/27-24.htm

Now, many of these Creationists probably would think this rule would not be too much of a personal problem for them, even if they did volunteer to follow it,  because it Jubilee occurs every 50th year:
http://www.growthingod.org.uk/jubilee.htm

Because most of the land in the US was originally owned by native Americans at least 100 years ago, most of that would need to be returned to their heirs.

Oh, wait! I forgot. Most of that land was stolen from them as a result of the various Indian Wars. And a lot of those families just didn't survive the ethnic cleansing that occurred during that portion of American history.  So the Jubilee rule probably doesn't apply to those circumstances. At least not going back to those folks. 

That being said, the folks who own the Creation Museum in Kentucky...
http://creationmuseum.org/
...should probably concern themselves with who were the previous owners of the land that theme park is on if they really want to follow the tenets laid out in the Bible. And not just the ones they like.

TTG
07:38 PM on 04/03/2012
Ahem....

"Instead, they flatly despised evolution, usually for reasons having nothing to do with the Bible."

...you then proceed to list *nothing but* reasons that have to do with the bible. God wouldn't have made things so wasteful, God wouldn't have made things so cut-throat, God made humans special, what's all this about God creating billions of years ago I don't see that in my bible anywhere......

Creationists objections to evolution are 100% religion-based.

"The literature defending "theistic evolution" is large and erudite. ... Too often the arguments therein just seem hollow, ad hoc or even desperate."

They seem that way because they are. Any attempt to take all the testing and knowledge generated by science and somehow sneak in a cheap "and it was all because of God" conclusion on the end is going to turn out that way.
04:42 PM on 03/27/2012
I would ask the author to turn his perception on Science regarding the need of some to believe in the Non-existence of a deity, and see if they agree if that need can influence scientific thought.

I'm speaking specifically of the various multi-verse theories, and how to my mind, at least, they seem in large part posited specifically to defeat the strong anthropic principle.

In short, there are some two-dozen physical/cosmological constants, e.g., strength of the strong nuclear force, etc., that, were any one of them slightly different, would lead to a universe incapable of life.

One might argue God's providence, or one might just say - it's a happy coincidence.

But, instead, to make sense of it , physicists and cosmologists (and mathematicians?) needed to invoke the law of large numbers somehow to explain the anthropic principle away. So the multiverse. If they exist, then we would have to.

And the theorizing appears to proceed from there. Was the multiverse concept a natural consequence of any other field of study, like String Theory? Or was it because given a choice between considering the possibility of a deity's influence on the cosmos, or the acceptance of an astronomically unlikely coincidence, they needed to come up with their own scientific answer that bears many of the trappings of faith?

Also, if anyone knows how the multi-verse theory is testable, I'd be really interested in knowing.

NOT to believe in a deity and see
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DakkonA
www.DisentangledReality.com
06:04 PM on 03/27/2012
The difference is that most scientists don't think that "there is definitely a multiverse and if you disagree you'll go to hell". They entertain the idea but recognize its limitations and its status as possible but unproven.
12:01 AM on 03/28/2012
But "why" is it possible? Does the math suggest it? Is there evidence of bubble collisions between other universes with ours that we can see? The multiverse seems like a hypothesis based only on the unwillingness to accept our existence as astronomical chance or the equally untestable influence that a deity tuned those parameters just so.

The question is not whether it is proven or not, but why did they go there in the first place?
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George Genung
08:40 PM on 03/27/2012
Not true. The universe was not built for us, we evolved to this point to "fit" the current climate.
There is nothing that says we will remain . The planet was here long before we were, and, it is possible it will go on a long time without us.
11:53 PM on 03/27/2012
You're right. I should have said "weak anthropic principle." The universe doesn't necessarily give rise to humans, but it is finely finely tuned (not implying a tuner) to allow life to exist. That's my point. The odds of this happening in the only universe we know of or can prove is so outlandish that some might argue for the existence of God as the answer, and others, scientists, the multi-verse, specifically because without it, we would have to be the product of an astronomically large co-incidence. or a deity, and neither argument is acceptable to them. So the start looking for something else. That's the point.
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12:13 PM on 03/26/2012
Reconciling faith and science isn't a challenge, the person just has to be willing.

As a side note, I don't see why an "armchair philosophers" solution isn't suitable. After all, we're talking about a process that depends on the improbable and a religious concept that has no support in science. A solution, no matter how improbable, seems like it would fit right in.

After all, if you aren't willing to consider that everything is the result of a very improbable situation then you shouldn't be putting much stock in evolution and the big bang theory to begin with.
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Steve McSwain
Author; speaker; spiritual teacher
06:38 AM on 03/26/2012
Jason, you've written a fair and responsible article here because, as you so carefully noted, for creationists, the whole idea of evolution strikes a deeply profound and psychic fear within them. I'm not sure they know this. In fact, I'm pretty sure most of them do not. But, believing that any acceptance of of evolution is tantamount to a rejection of a "near" and personal God creates in them an existential anxiety they neither know nor know how to combat. Understanding is needed here, if indeed it is important to evolutionists, as I am, to help people step beyond their fears so that rational and sane conversation/education might take place, not only around the issue of science and spirituality, but community and the future.

Thanks for a very finely written article.
jack27
Freethinker
09:16 AM on 03/26/2012
Very insightful comment. F&F.
01:11 AM on 03/26/2012
I believe that God created the universe and that Jesus Christ is the way to salvation. I understand that not everyone accepts this.
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pdferguson
Micro-bios? We don't need no stinkin' micro-bios!
11:46 AM on 03/26/2012
It's not about acceptance, it's about whether your beliefs are true or not. Beliefs without concern for their truth are worthless, and frankly, there is no evidence your beliefs are in fact true.
11:20 PM on 03/26/2012
Exactly. Science provides us evidence. Religion provides us with bald-faced assertions, and smacks us upside the head when we ask "but where does this idea come from? How do you know it's true? Where's the evidence for any of this?" The only reason people accept religion as "true" is that the natural urge to question has been drilled out of them, and they just accept what they are told. WHY? Why should we?
12:54 AM on 03/26/2012
Not only does evolution contradict with the Bible, it has no scientific basis to stand on. Sir Issac Newton was a Christian, so was Brahe, and many other scholars, why because although the Bible is not a science book, it's book has scientific fact. If you were to check scientific facts of the Bible it can be verified. Book of Isaiah is a good reference. www.creationtoday.org. There has been no proof of evolution, there is no missing link (some very nice drawings).
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democratbob
Equality for all, including marriage.
03:11 PM on 03/26/2012
There are certainly Christian scientists who completely disagree with you. Dr. (both a PhD in chemistry and an MD) Francis S. Collins, who was the head of the Human Genome Project and is now the director of the National Institutes of Health, is an Evangelical Christian who said after the Human Genome Project that if no fossils had ever been discovered, there would still be no question as to the evolutionary history of humans, because of what was discovered as a result of this project. Read his book 'The Language of God' to see more about it. There are many other Christian scientists like the Rev Dr John C Polkinghorne (a theoretical physicist who became an Anglican priest, and Dr. Kenneth R. Miller (who wrote 'Finding Darwin's God), who is Professor of Biology at Brown University (an Ivy League school) who both fully accept that evolution is the means by which humanity came to exist. If you're willing to learn, try these books.
04:02 PM on 03/26/2012
I think Newton was around much before Darwin, so he never had a chance to question how species arose. Also, he was primarily active in mathematics and physics, so maybe didn't care enough to ask.
10:28 PM on 03/26/2012
Genesis 1:1, its pretty simply. Newton was a strong believer in Christ, as were many others. The Christian scientist is wrong. I have viewed the books, they need to start with scripture, not their theories. As someone who was in science evolution has already been proven false, the dating system that science used was wrong when I was in school (carbon dating). Those books you refer to are nice stories, but have very little scientific truth in them. Have you seen an ape turn into a man, do you really think we came from apes? It has been shown that people come from one gene (the Bible calls her Eve). The Bible also says the the stars cannot be numbered, it also describes the shape of the earth (Isaiah). Check the scientific evidence of the Bible and you will find it is accurate, prophecy in the book is accurate as well. But the main point of the book is about Jesus. http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/352.asp
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html
10:41 AM on 04/05/2012
Actually no one questions the empty tomb and the Bible is valid:
http://www.alwaysbeready.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25&Itemid=43

http://silas.psfc.mit.edu/great_sci.html

It is up to you to do the research. I wouldn't trust all scientist for opinion. I acutally worked for one in college, the professor recieved grant money for any research they would do. Professors in top universities don't dispute creationism. I hope you really seek out the truth, and make a decison. The bottom line is either you are for Christ or against Christ.
08:45 AM on 03/25/2012
I just love how the creationists want to believe that humans are the pinnacle of creation. A look around the animal kingdom shows how absurd that idea is. Our maximum speed on foot is remarkably average compared to many other species, such as the cheetah and the emu. Our eyesight pales in comparison to eagles, many of which can spot a single rabbit from a mile up, and also to mantis shrimp (one of my favourite species), which can see infrared, ultraviolet, and visible light. Some can also see polarized light. Then there are dogs which have far a superior olfactory sense than us meager humans.

We humans are incredibly average and far from being the pinnacle of creation.
jack27
Freethinker
09:15 AM on 03/26/2012
Let's give humans our due. We're not very fast or strong, and our senses aren't that keen, but nature compensated with opposable thumbs and relatively large brains, and we've put them to (mostly) good use.

Still, one wonders what dolphins could do if they had hands like ours.
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Pierce Nichols
06:17 PM on 03/26/2012
Humans are excellent distance runners... we may not be able to beat a cheetah in a 100m dash, but we can beat it at 1000m and we're the fastest land animal in Africa at distances above 10 km. We also have the best eyesight of any African land animal. Our massive brains, opposable thumbs, and habit of cooking our food make us among the most adaptable species on the planet.
08:36 AM on 03/25/2012
Having spent two days debating an atheist on the topics raised here, I find it interesting that the usual line of reasoning from the atheist side goes something like this:

I deny that god exists (followed by talk of spaghetti monsters or elves or whatnot, as somehow comparative).

The educated believer or theist or openminded person replies, "God is in a different category philosophically than 'spaghetti monsters' -- God is a metaphysical concept, not a possible (or fictive) physical one."

The atheist says, "You must define God in precise, scientific terms to suit me, then... etc."

But, in point of fact, the atheist who claims to deny God must have a concept of what it is he's denying. When talk of "spaghetti monsters" and the like come up, it's obvious that their concept has no correspondence with anything that theologians or philosophers are talking about.

So, it's the atheist's job first to explain what he's denying, not the theist's job to inform the atheist what he actually should be denying. After the atheist gives his definition, then we can see if he's getting it right. Otherwise, he shouldn't deny what he obviously can't define.
ungroundedfaith
My best posts were killed by the moderator
12:38 PM on 03/25/2012
The Spaghetti monster is an extreme example used to point out the fallicy of believing in something with zero evidence. Maybe we should compare the evidence of Yahweh and Yeshua to say Zeus and Hercules for a better comparison?

Addison, it is a positive claim that must always provide evidence and sound reasoning. This is a simple concept with a lot of explanation written (online etc.). A negative statement simply cannot and is not required for the same purpose.
"I believe God has a personal relationship with me." (Positive statement)
"I doubt the validity of that statement with no proof." (Negative statement)
"Well, I feel God when im alone in prayer." (Not proof)

You are confusing the need to prove a negative because you already accept that you can believe something without reason. It makes no sense for you to say that the nonbeliever is responsible for defining the God that you believe in.... none.
01:31 PM on 03/25/2012
I don't expect anyone to define the God I believe in. I do expect that anyone who says, "I deny the existence of this or that" to have at least some idea of what it is he denies. Since an atheist says "God", I assume he has a notion of "God" that he rejects. If I say I don't have orange juice in my refrigerator, it's fair to suppose I have some idea of what orange juice is.

What I dislike is the atheist who says, "I deny the existence of God", and then wants me to define what he denies, if I reply I'm open to the idea of a God. I want to know first what he claims to deny before I put any convictions or vague idea of my own out there for him to play with. It's only fair.
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George Genung
01:12 PM on 03/25/2012
Not so Addison. You are the one making an affirmative statement that there is such an entity as a deity.
It is correct for a non believer to ask you to define your terms. A person like Einstein thought of the deity as the majesty of the universe, not some intelligent supernatural entity.
So, it is up to you to provide the definition and the verified evidence of the existence of what you claim does exist.
05:07 PM on 03/25/2012
That would be true if I were the one making the affirmative claim to begin with. My experience is most often the reverse. Atheists often begin by asserting unbelief. Some do this as a positive statement (for example, Christopher Hitchens's book's subtitle positively asserts that "religion poisons everything" -- which begs the question of what he means by "religion" and, even more bewilderingly, what he means by "everything"). Now, this has happened so frequently in my encounters that I begin to wonder if there isn't a training course out there on "how to be a particularly annoying atheist".

So, I'm sorry, but if someone is going to deny something, and do so stridently, I want to know what in fact they mean to deny. I don't want them to ask me for a precise definition of anything I supposedly affirm until they can tell me first what it is they're so vehemently denying (and I've met too many whose vehemence borders on the manic).
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Ovplain
Muse is dead and colors dry.=(
06:46 PM on 03/24/2012
Of Ymir's flesh was earth created,
of his blood the sea,
of his bones the hills,
of his hair trees and plants,
of his skull the heaven;
and of his brows the gentle powers
formed Midgard for the sons of men;
but of his brain
the heavy clouds are all created.

It's all perfectly clear.
01:53 PM on 03/24/2012
I've never heard of theistic evolution, but I guess it applies to me. I believe when God Said "let there be light", there was a Big Bang.
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Elijah A Alexander Jr
Elijah NatureBoy
04:45 PM on 03/24/2012
I believe when it was said "let there be light" it was the separating the enlightened people from the unenlightened. I've found throughout scripture, usually, when the word waters is written it's referring to people so when the spirit moved upon the face of the waters the people were being qualified for the rapture above the firmament between them because above is called heaven.

The only way I would consider the Big Bang would be the coming together of the ashes of the Phoenix or the earth burned root and branch to form the egg out of which existence returned to the different manifestations we see.
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Nathan Teegarden
03:11 PM on 03/29/2012
Why do you believe God said "Let there be light"?
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Elijah A Alexander Jr
Elijah NatureBoy
09:04 PM on 03/29/2012
I don't believe it myself, that's why I left god off of my post. I don't even believe there's a god to say anything.
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Elijah A Alexander Jr
Elijah NatureBoy
12:38 PM on 03/24/2012
I have achieved the "can it be accomplished" without god and coming from a religious base. Although the title god is throughout the Bible Isaiah 7:1-16 & 22 suggests christ and everyone saved [left upon the land] will have to reject the 2 kings, god & devil. Evolution, I find to be of lifeforces rather than bodies via karma and reincarnation, also biblical but not in those words. However, a creation I don't find unless the concept that "the earth shall be burned root and branch" is the same as the Phoenix's rising out of its own ashes since nature has something similar, mushrooms growing out of decay.

From that perspective, I believe science and faith [the process of finding evidence and substance to support the unseen, per Hebrews 11:1] will be reconciled but only by those whose evolution is to the point they go through the metamorphosis or Christianity's "new birth" for moving on to the next plane.
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Rubyfoo
12:22 PM on 03/24/2012
Isms are the problem, and not the solution. Scientists, atheists, deists, creationists, Darwinists, whatever-ists, go do your thing and mind your own business. Stop trying to win hearts and minds and let people make their own decisions on personal matters.
jack27
Freethinker
01:06 PM on 03/24/2012
Reality is not a personal matter. And the scientific literacy (or lack thereof) of present and future Americans is a matter of serious national concern.
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Rubyfoo
07:32 PM on 03/24/2012
Believe it or not, we can carry on pragmatic science and technology just fine in an ism-free environment.
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Dan Jighter
07:42 PM on 03/25/2012
I have to agree with Jack, reality is not a personal matter. Would you say that people should be able to make up their own minds about whether there are trees or whether things fall at about 9.8 m/s/s? Of course not, some things are facts, they are just true, if you care at all about being intelligent and honest you have no choice in the matter, those things are just true. It is odd that you find religion to be a personal matter, but I'm fairly certain you wouldn't tolerate someone denying that Obama was born in Hawaii. Religion is NOT a personal matter. It is a public matter. It impacts our schools and communities. It is practiced in congregations. I makes claims about reality that are either true or are false. It isn't a personal choice as to whether there is a god, there either is or there isn't. It isn't a personal choice as to whether condom use is immoral, that is a public issue that effects the health of everyone. The whole idea that religion is a private, personal thing is one of the most ridiculous ideas ever come up with.
09:36 AM on 03/24/2012
Yep. Plenty of waste. Plenty of suffering.

Wonder if they are also troubled by the fact that approximately 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, making God the biggest abortionist in the universe.