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Jennifer Vanasco

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If New Religious 'Carve Outs' Are Too Extreme, Do Not Pass NY Gay Marriage

Posted: 06/17/11 07:23 PM ET

For three days, we have been waiting.

For three days, those who care about marriage equality in New York have waited, huddled outside of doors, as Republicans have conferenced, as they've met privately with the governor, as they've agonized over -- what? Certainly not the opportunity to do what's right and bring the gay marriage vote -- with an additional Republican signed on -- to the floor.

No, instead, as Republican Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos said early this afternoon, they are talking about extreme religious "carve outs" that would mean that if a florist, a caterer, a hotel -- or, say, an adoption agency -- didn't like those gays, well, then, they wouldn't need to serve us.

No.

We have the right to not be discriminated against now. We have the right to adoption now. We are protected now.

And we can marry in Massachusetts (etc.) and have it legally recognized in New York now.

A bill that narrows instead of expands our rights is unacceptable. And no matter how heartbreaking it is, we must say no.

Marriage means a lot to us. And when I say "us," I mean me, personally, since I am engaged to a woman I love deeply and we are waiting on New York to get its act together to marry. But it is not worth it if getting married in New York means that we will be newly discriminated against. It is not worth it to suddenly have to worry that any business -- every business -- in New York State could suddenly discriminate against us because we are a lesbian couple.

No.

That potential bill is a bad bill. It is not about compromise -- it is a backdoor to vicious segregation and discrimination.

Marriage that is defined as a union of two committed people for their mutual love and support does not "redefine" marriage. You know what would "redefine marriage"? A bill that makes it so that if you get married you have fewer civil rights than you had before. If anything killed marriage, it would be that.

The gay marriage bill as it stands is a good one. But accepting one with exemptions that are too broad is not the way to go. If that's our only option, then no thank you. We'll vote the Republicans out of office and try again.

Jennifer Vanasco is the editor in chief of 365gay.com.

 
 
 

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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Jennifer Vanasco
editor in chief, 365gay.com
03:03 PM on 06/21/2011
Hi Jay,

(And hello to everyone who has commented!)

Actually, no, it's not inflammatory. The bill as it stands is great, as I say above - I have no issues with those religion carve outs. I think that churches should be free to marry whomever they like. no one expects a Catholic priest to preside over the wedding of two Jewish people, for example.

My problem is with the proposals that folks like Sen. Greg Ball keep proposing. He told CNN last night:

"And you know the toughest ones come to religious protections for individuals who have religious objections. And that's the toughest needle to thread. But I believe the government needs to at least pay respect to that side of the argument as well."

It's hard to know if he really believes that or if it's just a political ploy. But he (and others) keep saying it. And if that's the holdup - if we're in a standoff because some members of the GOP caucus want language like that - then we're in trouble. Because overwriting GENDA is simply not acceptable.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Jay Michaelson
Columnist & author of "God vs Gay? The Religious C
01:08 PM on 06/20/2011
Jennifer, with all due respect, have you read the bill? Your rhetoric here is needlessly inflammatory. Here's my HuffPo commentary on the actual issues in play: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jay-michaelson/whats-between-new-yorks-s_b_879575.html . As a fellow gay activist and journalist, I really hope you'll amend your piece. I'm not defending the Republicans here, but what you say is just not correct.
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Bill J4321
10:50 AM on 06/20/2011
It's amazing that the people responsible for the creation of every gay person ever in existence wouldn't want them to have pretty flowers and tasty food at their weddings.

Dorks.
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raker
08:22 AM on 06/20/2011
We taxpayers support churches. We pay their rent, so we are entitled to make the rules. No carve outs. Let them follow the law of the land or they can pack up and move out. Or they can start supporting themselves and then we can talk carve-outs. That would be OK too.
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MichaelRCooke
A cartoonist and webmaster.
02:08 PM on 06/19/2011
Really what business other than a conservative church is going to turn away customers and accept a 'bigoted' label to kill their business? Even Churches are finding it's not really an enrolling sales pitch "anti gay hate encouraged here!"

When it comes right down to it, my reading of the 14th amendment suggests I am entitled to gay marriage now in any state of the union and the 'DOMA' is unconstitutional. I suppose that's why I'm not a judge or a lawyer.

if I were a lawyer I might conclude "do unto others as you would have done to yourself" really only applies to Catholics in relation to other Catholics as that seems to be the intent and practice of the Christians that wrote that scripture.
01:52 PM on 06/19/2011
The religion issue is bogus and is just used as a fig leaf for politicians who don't accept civil equality.

Churches decide which marriages they perform period. This has never been a legal issue. There is no need to carve out exceptions for a problem that does not exist.
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Chris Wundrow
12:54 PM on 06/19/2011
The real joke is, of course, that should this bill become law, gay marriages entered into in New York aren't going to be recognized in much of the rest of the country anyhow--especially in states that have passed "Defense of Marriage" amendments or acts. Nor do the feds recognize them, at least for tax purposes. So all this uproar seems to me to be largely a waste of effort and time. Personally, I think government has no business in the bedrooms of consenting adults.
06:49 PM on 06/19/2011
I definitely understand your point, but I would say it does make some difference, and is worth fighting for. When the Supreme Court finally rules on gay marriage (which it will someday, no doubt), the justices will look at the states. If gay marriage is legal in more states, the Court will be more likely to accept it as a change in social values across the country, and more likely to rule in favor.

Not to mention the thousands of gay New Yorkers who would at least receive state-level protections.
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11:53 AM on 06/19/2011
Gay marriages means jobs.
12:37 PM on 06/19/2011
All those weddings, gifts, receptions, honeymoons, prenups, redecorating, deejays, photographers ;millions will be made! not to mention the dollars from gay divorces once those start rolling in. The economy needs gay marriage!
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LouGots
05:10 PM on 06/19/2011
Don't forget jobs for divorce lawyers. Ka-ching!
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thorrsman
Why should I define myself by quoting others?
11:05 AM on 06/19/2011
"marriage equality"?

Be truthful: You mean changing the meaning of marriage to suit homosexuals who do not want to meet the current requirements of marriage.
07:55 PM on 06/19/2011
Current Requirements? In other words we have to be heterosexual. No Gays Allowed.

The New Jim Laws
11:25 AM on 06/20/2011
The poor thing really doesn't get it.
3rdCitizen
Nobody knows for sure.
04:16 PM on 06/18/2011
As a Christian who is for marriage equality, the only "carve out" I support is that any religious institution that opposes gay marriage, and does NOT receive state or federal funds, should be free to refuse to perform a wedding ceremony for a same-sex couple. (Of course, that would not be a church that I'd wish to attend.) Beyond that, what's the issue?
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BornOKtheFirstTime
pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo
07:19 PM on 06/18/2011
It's very encouraging that so many more Christians are evolving away from the old-fashioned antigay version of their religion. With 74% of American Catholics supporting legal recognition of same-sex unions (43% for marriage, 31% for civil unions), it seems some major spiritual transformation is well underway.
09:15 PM on 06/18/2011
The NY bill, as passed by the Assembly, already states explicitly that religious groups & organizations are considered to be "private" and as such cannot be required to perform any services or be compelled to provide any support (ie rent out their facilities, etc) if they choose not to. It also explicitly states that such refusal shall not be grounds for any civil suit or action against the organization.

If the gov't & individuals already have no legal recourse to sue or compel a church to marry heterosexual couples they disagree with (for example, non-Catholics, those not baptized, divorcees, etc), then this law should make no difference as all citizens would be treated equally.

As for other private businesses, I suppose they're currently free to discriminate against heterosexual couples, black people, gays, etc in terms of providing services (though not in hiring so much in hiring or other legally protected areas). They'd just have to face PR nightmares in the press & effects on their sales for doing so.

The "carve outs" now being asked for would essentially enshrine the right for private businesses to discriminate against gays simply for being gay. Not for being married & gay, being black & gay, or being lesbians ... or for being or black Jewish lesbians (??), but simply for being gay. Sexual orientation would be the deciding factor.
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Andman0121
03:13 PM on 06/18/2011
It amazes me how heterosexuals care about homosexuals getting married. Just leave them alone and let them get married already! What's the big freaking deal?
09:15 AM on 06/19/2011
I completely agree. How does homosexual marriage "attck & undermine" my heterosexual marriage? When my gay friends can finally marry, I will be able to share in their celebrations just as they have shared in mine. As a nation, our priorities are so out of whack. We prefer to learn about celebrities vacuuous lives and focus on BS instead of tackling the big stuff. Gay marriages time has come. Love is love. Freedom and equality for all.
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FilthyHarry
Expletive Deleted
10:53 AM on 06/19/2011
I think its a combination of 3 things:

1: Religious people (the ones who are anti-gay) have a vague notion that what they claim to believe in is complete hooey so they want to have it validated by as many people around them and even better by they state. The argument that gay marriage hurts anything is just made up to justify what they unable to vocalize: that if their beliefs are dismissed by society, then their beliefs are somehow cheapened.

2: Straight people who fear that if you are not virulently anti-gay, you are gay.

3. Closeted gay people who fear that if they are not virulently anti-gay, people will find out they are gay.
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Scott Douglas
01:32 PM on 06/19/2011
It would help a lot if Hollywood and tv would stop showing mostly stereotypes. Queer eye for the straight guy made me ill.
02:52 PM on 06/18/2011
I hope that the marriage bill passes, and they institute as many carveouts as they can muster. not becuase i am in favor of these, but because the main deal is getting this passed.

and then the lawsuits can start as to why religious expression is a sufficient reason for the discrimination which is already against NY law. discussion on this issue is not something that has been presented so much to the public, and this will offer that chance.

Wow, an actual discussion in public about the acceptability of discrimination on the basis of religious belief.

I also think that the actual impact of such carveouts will be limited to a very few places, and will also give the public a birdseye view of what this is really about.
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lrobb
Southern Rational
11:55 AM on 06/19/2011
The US has a history of carve-outs based on religious belief. This would be why there is a contientious objector status when it comes to a military draft.
02:44 PM on 06/18/2011
Just PASS the freakin' thing in the same form as the House version. And then let the lawyers, litigators, and others make a small fortune tinkering with the details. The important part is securing equal rights that are conferred by the civil contract that is "marriage" - including transferability and recognition of out-of-state unions.
OR . . . be obstructionist and demand "the whole enchilada NOW" and watch the hard-right backlash solidify. It's a process. Step by step. And throwing away these gains because they're "not enough" is asinine.
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Alvin McEwen
01:57 PM on 06/18/2011
Really to me, this is about strategy. I think they are trying to create an lgbt backlash against the gay marriage bill. I think we need to call their bluff just to see how far they can go.
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SUIGENEROUSLA
02:25 PM on 06/18/2011
Interesting Alvin. I do think that's part of it. But only part -- I think the GOP in NY are looking for a small victory here in order to seem relevant.
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SUIGENEROUSLA
01:55 PM on 06/18/2011
Jennifer, I agree that the florist etc who does not want to participate in a ceremony (though how selling flowers to a gay couple's wedding is any different than selling them some for any other occasion -- or a man sending flowers to his husband on their anniversary or Valentine's Day -- through the same reasoning why would that be banned?) is a very bad exception. I think there are some we can live with for the time being (like event facilities that don't to hold our wedding there (the Knights of Columbus halls come to mind), let them have that small victory and be further marginalized as things continue to swing our way politically and socially.

As for adoption, they will never get that in the bill, nor should they.

Our rights in NY are very precarious, the recognition of out-of-state marriages is purely based on an opinion of the NY AG, if there were a different AG that could disappear instantly -- imagine the chaos (and regret) then if we take the hardest possible line now and miss by one vote.

Let's get this while we can -- with the fewest possible concessions. The wedding halls and florists who discriminate will soon find themselves in a tough spot, even if they are allowed to discriminate by law. Just as the states that don't recognize marriage equality after SEc 3 of DOMA is overturned will begin to look like backwaters for thinking companies and individuals.