Flamers and Lurkers and Trolls, Oh My!

People can be so cruel, especially on the web. Sometimes I think it's the primary thing for which people use the Internet -- to exercise their dark side.

The Internet has made it possible for anyone to write, for anyone to share an opinion. And that's fabulous. The thing is, it doesn't necessarily get people involved in any kind of real discussion. Sure there's some talking. But I'm not convinced that there's enough listening or thinking or processing. The problem is that it's simply too easy to be hateful towards or dismiss someone you don't know, someone who you can't see, someone whose story, despite their bio and writing, is basically a mystery to you.

It's like some sort of open invitation -- "Let the flaming, lurking, and trolling begin."

People like that, of course. They can lash out and say whatever they like without having to stand by their words. There's no punishment, so to speak, for being hateful, vicious, or even stupid. Sure, someone's comments can be banned. But he or she can just sign up under a different email address with a different username. Yes, you can respond. But rarely have I seen someone retract a comment or article or blog unless it truly was based in error or clear misunderstanding. And even then, well, not so much. The Internet is convenient, but it lacks the very best part about human interaction, which is, well, human interaction.

Today's online communities are like the modern day answer to the classic French salon, where intellectuals gathered together to discuss the issues of the day. But they are lacking in one element that I am starting to think is paramount -- presence. People in online communities are there, but they also aren't. What that often results in is a complete lack of accountability.

I know I myself can all too often forget about the person behind the screen.

Forgive me for getting all touchy feely here. But the people we "talk to" online have mothers and fathers; sons and daughters; lovers and loved ones. They have thoughts and opinions and ideas. And while we may not all agree, we do all owe one another one simple thing: respect. Without it, there is no exchange of intellectual ideas. There is only blurting and bashing and the furthering of ignorance. And we all know we have no need for more of that.

Personally, I'd like to see a rebirth of the salon. I know. I know. We're all busy. We're all scattered across the globe. But what about just in our own communities? Just so we might learn or relearn the true art of discourse and then take those lessons back into our online life.

I do know one person who's testing out the theory. Former talk radio personality Rick Vanderslice has a podcast he calls "Conversations from the Buli Café." Once a week he picks a topic and a few people to get together in person to talk about it. And that's exactly what they do. Talk. No agenda. No prepared speeches. No name-calling. Just talking.

I like to think I'm well schooled in the art of discussion. I went to college and graduate school. I was on the debate team. I taught in a college classroom for nearly ten years. I do a couple of radio shows a week and talk to groups all across the country. Still, listening to Vanderslice's show, as a mere fly on the proverbial wall, is a powerful reminder of how different it sounds when people engage in a discussion in person rather than online. People take turns. They listen to one another in order to respond intelligently. They show one another respect. And what ensues is lively and informative.

I also had the chance to be on Vanderslice's show. It was fascinating how different it was from the many phone interviews I have done and the many online conversations I have had. The way we looked one another in the eye. The way we took turns. They way we considered one another's comments -- and feelings -- before speaking. I long to have that feel in a web discussion. But how do you convey a shrug or a pair of crossed arms or darting eyes when you are towns or states or countries away?

The web offers amazing opportunities, but it is also a dangerous invitation to throw all gentility out the window. It seems to me, if you wouldn't want your mom (read, family, friends, significant other, etc.) to read what you wrote -- you should think twice before writing it. My mother used to say, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." I'm not one for silencing people. But perhaps the new rule of thumb should be, "If you have something to say, try saying it nicely."

Jenny Block is the author of Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage

Comments

[scrimscram]

I completely agree -- a lot of the things people post online seem to be written while the poster is upset, and emotion makes it that much harder to self-censor in favor of being civil. Also, not being able to see the person about whom one is writing encourages the poster to disregard that person's emotions.

I know; I've been the victim of online harassment of this sort. There was a bad situation at a job about a year ago, and people involved chose to post extremely mean-spirited comments about me on a Web site, which led to other people commenting and responding to them. So now there are comments about me, many of which are one-sided, incorrect or downright cruel, on the Internet. Many of them are written by people I've never met, who don't know me -- some of them even live in different states! And it's all permanent and online forever, and pops up first in a Google search of my name. And because some of the posters posted anonymously or under screen names, they'll never face any consequences for their cruelty.

[Jenny Block - Huffpost Blogger]

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I hope it will help people to better understand just how hurtful their language can be. It is also my hope that some of the people who wrote unfairly and unkindly about you will read this. One day, maybe people will think twice before they write. There really are people behind those screens.

[theordinaryextraordinary]

Here's a link to a July 31st L.A. Times column entitled "Website comment boards bring out the inner vulgarian." A smart and snappy piece that hits the nail on the head. Cheers!

www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-onthemedia31-2008jul31,0,986679.story

[DocManhattan]

Seems to me you may be in need of a thicker skin if you’re going to keep writing, Jenny. The example you linked from the Tango web site is not really a flame, it’s just a standard negative comment. The first has no purpose other than to hurt, the second is an opinion expressed regarding a piece of work.

It may be stating the obvious, but I'll do it anyway -- you’ve chosen to be published and every published writer has to deal with criticism, from editors, critics and readers. If you publish on the web, then you’re voluntarily walking into a forum where anyone can immediately and anonymously publish their feelings about your writing in discussion forums. Why do this if you really only want compliments or genteel discussion?

You’ve also chosen to adopt a cause you clearly feel passionate about. Well, there are obviously going to be a lot of people out there that feel equally passionately that your cause is wrong or that they don’t much care either way and they’re just tired of seeing it in print.

I have my opinions about your cause, but I’ll withhold them here. What I’ll say instead is that if you have a strong opinion, you’d better be ready to defend it. As long as you’re still able to do so, your cause is valid, and when you no longer can, then it’s time to rethink your position.

[Jenny Block - Huffpost Blogger]

It's not so much that such comments hurt my feelings, so to speak. (I certainly have had to deal with my share of substantive criticism, which is fine.) It's just that some simply does not add anything to the conversation. I have no problem with people expressing their opinions (for example as you have done here, calmly and eloquently). I welcome that, in fact. I'm thrilled when people want to engage with the material and/or the writing. But it's hard for me to imagine in what way language like the following adds to any sort of intelligent or larger discussion.

"OMG.. who cares?!"

or

"It’s not like she’s any sort of expert on anything. Can I write an article for Tango? Because I have abuot as much expertise as she does.

or

" I I am so over this woman"

(All errors in these quotes are those of the original post I cite in a comment below.)

I don't believe it's a matter of defending anything. It's my story; I've been asked to share it; and I'm happy to do so. No one is forced to read my writing or anyone's for that matter. That's the beauty of it.

Critical thinking, in many ways, has become a lost art. That is what I think is a shame.

[theordinaryextraordinary]

Jenny.....

Don't let the bastards get you down. Too many fragile egos out there like to act tough within their anonymity: scared, immature people with too firm a grip on their conception of "the way things should be."

They're desperate; you're enlightened. Keep on with what you're doing. And, if you like, do what you can to spread a more civil dialogue. The world -- and especially this country, as its been made to fear so much and scream so loud -- could certainly use more of it.

Hope to see you in Southern California again soon!

Alan and Anna
www.theordinaryextraordinary.com

[AnitaWagner]

I couldn't agree more. Today I have a pretty thick hide, but there was a time early in the popular use of the internet that I was treated like crap by people on the email list I moderated. I was called names (nazi) and the recipient of rude comments for insisting on civility. Thankfully this standard weeded out the nasty people, but not without throwing cold water on the list atmosphere where it took a while for people to feel brave enough to do more than lurk.

It so happens that I live in Howard County, Maryland, where a "Choose Civility" campaign is under way. Choose Civility is an ongoing community-wide initiative, led by the Howard County Library, to position Howard County as a model of civility. The project intends to enhance respect, empathy, consideration and tolerance in Howard County.

It would be wonderful if a similar initiative were undertaken on the internet.

[Jenny Block - Huffpost Blogger]

Exhibit A...

http://www.tangomag.com/20086030/mythical-monogamy.html

[earlgreyrooibos]

It's interesting you point out taking turns on Vanderslice's show - the way blogs are set up, it's pretty much impossible to take turns, because there's no way to know if someone else is typing a response at the same time you are. Posting comments on blogs always runs the risk of potential interruption. So we have one aspect of etiquette that can't really be considered because blogs are just not able to allow it.

My blog has only received two trolls, and in general, I just don't let them bother me, whether they're on my blog or another one. Unless a troll is using threatening language, I personally don't see much need to take them seriously. If there isn't much other discussion happening, I may try to counter their attacks, but if a thread is busy, I'm going to ignore them and devote my time to the meaningful discussion. Trolls are rarely worth my time.

[TerroristManGonnaGetYa]

Here here!

Good luck Jenny, I hope you reach many people with your message. Still there will always be those who need attention so deserately that negative attention will suffice and they will continue to bait converstaion with their sensationalism.

Regards.
MW

[lilkunta]

What website do u mean, or do u mean all over the web?

[Jenny Block - Huffpost Blogger]

I was thinking all over the web. Would you agree?

[lilkunta]

O ok. & yes I do.
I aslo emailed you (via your website) & I hope you'll respond.

[Pieface]

I totally agree with you. Their are a lot of jerks and bozos out there!