Best Debate on Iraq So Far

One of the best debates I have seen about the events of last week and the future of American policy in Iraq was Sunday's Meet the Press debate between senators John Kerry and John McCain, two Vietnam veterans who, although friends, maintain profound and passionate disagreements about the war and what policy makes the most sense for American safety and international security.

Take a look.

Jim Wallis is the Editor-in-Chief of Sojourners and blogs at www.godspolitics.com.

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Comments

[873450]

Kerry and McCain have a lot more in common than authentic military service. Both had their presidential aspirations undermined by vicious political attacks engineered by Karl Rove to defame and vilify opposition candidates.

Utilizing an elaborate dirty-trick tactic taken straight from the Rove textbook, false rumors slandering the opponent were conjured up and fed to media sycophants. The malicious lies were then repeated again and again and again until they eventually obtained an aura of truth.

The strategy, now called swift-boating, has been deployed by Rove many times, dating back to his initial affiliation with the RNC's notorious "plumbers" group responsible for the Watergate burglary and Richard Nixon's subsequent resignation.

Sadly, on two occasions Rove's political skullduggery helped send a deeply flawed candidate, George W Bush, to the White House. It will probably take the U.S. several decades to recover.

[IntegrityIntact]

John Mccain said "I feel the people's frustrations" so many times during the debate he needs a good smacking: Hey Johnny--Americans aren't frustrated about Iraq--we're fucking pissed. Big difference.

[IntegrityIntact]

Yes, it was a riveting, intelligent debate, however, sen. Kerry was vastly more informed and appeared to have a profound understanding of the situation.

McCain on the other hand, displayed ad hominem rhetoric typical of conservative Hawks with no real sense of reality--and complete abrogation of FACTS. And he was pissed about it.

McCain was just no match, in any sense of the word, for Kerry. Se. Kerry struck his point deeply, just how committed the Dems are to their struggle to bring our soldiers home.

The plan the Dems are proposing appears realistic, since we need moderate repub support from the senate for any chance in hell to get the ball rolling on withdrawal.

But the pain I feel for the troops still stuck over there and who are desperate to return home--and pleading with visiting members of congress and the senate to Iraq to defund the War, even at the risk to their wellbeing--makes me angry enough to want to stop further funding of this nonsense until as Kerry put it best, we need "change the equation".

It is imperative that we do so if we have one iota of compassion and consideration for our soldiers out in the middle east waging this deadly, futile battle.

[endangeredcitizen]

What struck me about the debate was McCain's insistence that there must be security, provided by our troops, before there can be political reconciliation in Iraq. Yet there is no armed insurgency or bloody civil war raging in the US and we cannot come to any political reconciliation here.

McCain would not nor will he ever concede one iota on any of Kerry's positions, despite many US military leaders saying it cannot bring about a political solution.

Perhaps because McCain was a navy pilot shot down and held prisoner rather than fighting on the ground, like Kerry and Chuck Hagle did, that he maintains such a different stance on war. That and selling his soul to the Rove/Republican permanent majority promise that would someday bring him to power if he just went along.

[Hastings]

This was an interesting debate matchup. On the one hand there was John Kerry, who began his political career smearing his fellow brothers in arms with what can only be described as the most dishonest and disqustingly traitorous statements in the history of this country. Mr Kerry then had the gall to begin his remarks at the 2004 Democractic Convention with a salute and the disingenuous statement that he was , "reporting for duty". On the other hand there was John McCain, who as a POW refused an offer of early release and chose instead to remain by the side of his fellow prisoners thus enduring years of unspeakable pain and depravation. Anyone want to guess who I listened to in this debate?

[PADDYWHACK]

When Powell conjured a wmd lab out of two pickups and a tarpaulin and our president from Deliverance visited his convictions upon us it all started downhill.Before 9/11 we had a prosperous country at peace.The Neocons used our fear and uncertainty to bring us to this point,broke,in debt to countries which may not have our interests at heart,and morally bound to pay for a country they destroyed.What the f### went wrong,my point is that we should not be prisoners of the dishonesty of the past,thats everyone who supports the war.

[outnow]

There are serious questions about the propriety of the Gulf War lead by Bush I. The Saudis were provided retouched photographs showing a build-up of troops on their borders that exaggerated the actual numbers so that US troops could be stationed there, causing bin Laden to launch his anti-American campaign.

If you watched the blinking of Bush, Jr.'s eyes and the nonsense presentation of flimsy and fabricated "evidence" by Colin Powell at the UN in promoting the war, and still believed these men, then you are not able to detect dishonesty. Are drawings of a Winnabego "evidence" of mobile biological weapons laboratories for you? Are the uncorroborated statements of Curveball made to German intelligence officers (but not even interviewed by the CIA) evidence to you? Are phony yellow cake purchase invoices evidence to you?

Hans Blix, Scott Ritter and even Sean Penn saw right through all of this phony "evidence." No court would even allow this "evidence" into a courtroom. There was no foundational witnesses to establish authenticity and the other second-hand evidence was hearsay. It was about control of oil and raising the price of oil - not WMD or democracy.

Why John Kerry voted for the war is beyond comprehension. John McCain has a loose screw but once you bomb civilian populations you lose a piece of your humanity, if not your moral judgment.

There is nothing to debate about the fabrication of the grounds for this war.

If Bush believes in spreading democracy he could start right here at home and set an example as did Nixon and resign. He has lied to the world and the American people. How many more people have to die or be maimed before the narcissists of America admit that they are wrong again.

What the Pentagon Papers showed about Vietnam is what the Downing Street Memo showed about this war and what the Iran/Contra hearings showed about covert activities ranging from the Middle East to Latin America. John Kerry knows all of this yet voted to authorize the use of force.

[PADDYWHACK]

As I've said many times Bush41 owes us an intervention on Bush43 to end this oedipal tragedy

[charlietuna11]

I WAS A ONE TIME MCCAIN SUPPORTER.HE NOW APPEARS DESPERATE, IN DENIAL AND HAS HAS TURNED INTO A BUSH CLONE.JUST WHAT WE NEED.AN EARLIER BLOGGER WAS RIGHT,ALL YOU NEED DO IS LOOK INTO HIS LYING EYES.HES TRULY PATHETIC.HE NOW REMINDS ME OF HENRY KISSENGER,A ONE TIME MAN OF SUBSTANCE WHO NOW APPEARS INCOHERENT, BABBLING,FORGETFUL AND LIVING ON PAST ACCHIEVEMENTS.I DEEPLY RESPECT OUR OLDER CITIZENS.THE FACT IS THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE CREATIVE AND PRODUCTIVE WELL INTO THEIR EIGHTIES AND OTHERS LIKE SEN.MCCAIN ARE INFLICTED WITH FLAWED THINKING AND COMMON SENSE.ITS SAD, HE WAS ONCE A A MAN OF SUBSTANCE

[ParacleteofKavorka]

Does being a POW in any way qualify you to be President? He just seems to be hapless over and over. It would seem that if you avoided being a POW, you might be more of a leader.

[conned]

It doesn't qualify someone in itself, but it is certainly a measure of what someone will give of themselves for their country, and moreover, it gives him credibility that intimately knows the hell of war, is qualified to be the Commander and Cheif of the United States military, and can be trusted not to "send them into harm's way" unless absolutely neccessary.

You say: "It would seem that if you avoided being a POW, you might be more of a leader."

George W. Bush and Dick Cheney would probably agree with you.
Considering present circumstances, I think

[PaulDonaldson]

Here is the vast majority of the debate itself if anyone missed it:

http://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=fc90713d-4bba-4831-b134-4dd9dcf6a76d

[MThomasinNC]

Kerry was very effective in the debate, same as he was in the 2004 debate w Bush. His responses were measured, well thought out and not slogan-ness like McCain or Bush.
As Henry wrote, where was the repubs outrage when war heros' Kerry and Cleland were swift-boated. They were all behind the scenes snickering and pointing their fingers.
It's about time we have some serious debate about Iraq with serious people like Kerry, Murtha, McCain, Wes Clark, Powell, etc. I would love to hear from General Frank who led us into iraq. I still want to know why he retired when he did.

[Overd0g]

He was highly effective as a soporific.

[Wilbur]

Kerry's only faux pas on that show came right at the end when he stated that both he and McCain supported the troops and wanted the best for them and blah-blah-blah. Russert then said something in kind of a "let's make nice" fashion. Kerry then turned toward McCain, leaned over toward him ever so slightly and gave McCain a simpering grin. McCain stared straight ahead and ignored Kerry. This was all too typical behavior of Democrats when dealing with the hard-core GOP'ers (as McCain is, contrary to suppositions otherwise). Kerry should have looked straight ahead as did McCain and not have shown ANY indication of "making nice." You never should give deference to your enemies, as Kerry did to McCain. NEVER!

Wilbur

[lwaldmann]

I cannot get over the fact that McCain seems to be living in a fantasy world where all we have to do is keep the flag flying and in the end the prince will come and save the day. I think he may be a wee bit long in the fake tooth for this fight. See an early exit from the primaries. As far as Kerry is concerned, he got screwed in the most heinous way, by some of the meanest and most sadistic people in the United States. The so called "baby killers" of Vietnam. America love it or leave it I believe is their mantra. The time has come for generous dialogue and a spirit I can only describe as the way I felt during Kennedy's inaugural address. There are far more generous,great Americans out there then one would think.

Lary Waldman

[Overd0g]

Reincarnate Kennedy, and you'd have a winner. Unfortunately no Dem would vote for such a conservative candidate.

[Hastings]

Excelent point Overd0g. Your comment sums up the sad degeneration of a once proud and great political party.

[Henry]

I'm curious about the swift-boating of Kerry (demeaning the medals of the military) never seems to be an issue with anyone about showing disrespect for the vaunted military. When the left does it it's bad. However, when the right does it, they're mustering out a weasle?
McCain is betting the farm on victory in Iraq, he is painted into the corner. I'm sure when it's over he'll state it was just politics. Afterall, it's the game we play, eh?

[Overd0g]

Remember Kerry threw his away, so you're on thin ice here. In any case, it's a tactic used by both sides in different ways.

[white_mende_man]

Kerry threw away his ribbons not his medals... in fact he said he threw away the medals/ribbons of others that were handed to him.

a note to Henry above:
the same can be said about actors/movie stars if they are liberals they are condemmed if they speak out, but if they are republicans they are praised.

[white_mende_man]

I'm not sure if we were watching the same thing but McCain sounded senile and kept repeating things over and over again hoping he'll believe them too if he repeats them long enough... that kid may have been right after all.

[Doofus]

Well, you had the Rep focus from McCain on the
very idea of a 'timetable' telegraphing an
admission of defeat, and Kerry insisting that
the focus be on the future, on the realization
that it's time to leave Iraq (I'm paraphrasing).

That's a useful Demo approach, juxtaposed with
the feeble-but-still-effective Repo tactic.

Yes, it was instructive.