The MoveOn Dust-Up, the GOP's Self-Righteous Indignation, and Winning the White House

"How many times do we charge up the hill and run straight into enemy fire before we figure this shit out?"

I remember an angry Republican asking that question to no one in particular in a crowded GOP conference. The government was shut down, the public was testy and Bill Clinton was once again pounding a GOP Congress more interested in ideological purity than practical results.

This week's Moveon.org dust-up reminded me of that time when we Republicans led with our hearts and got pounded in our faces. We loved bathing in self-righteous indignation. Our base loved it too. But the practical results were always the same: we scared little children, household pets and crossover voters. It was a really great way to alienate the voters we needed the most.

Whoever dreamed up the ad questioning the loyalty of Iraq's top soldier would have fit in great with those of us who drove the political agenda in 1995 -- and guaranteed Bill Clinton's re-election in 1996. While I'm sure Move On's ad locked down the base in Manhattan and Madison, Democrats need to be more concerned with wooing voters in Tampa and Toledo.

I know this post will generate nasty emails. Every time I dare to tell Democrats how they can avoid the mistakes we Republicans made in the past, I am told to mind my own business. To those who are so offended, my apologies. Go ahead and spend the next year kicking around Generals and God. While you're at it, attack the Boy Scouts and burn a few flags for the hell of it.

You're right. Great election strategy. What was I thinking?

But for those who who actually want to win the White House in 2008, call your friends in liberal organizations and tell them to take a deep breath before they decide again to attack soldiers in a war zone.

Come on. This really shouldn't be that hard. The White House is the Democrats' to lose.

The president and his war are overwhelmingly unpopular.

The social issues that used to pull conservatives to the polls (guns, gays and God) are now so overshadowed by Mr. Bush's war that a pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-gay New York mayor is running away with the GOP primary.

Add in the fact that Republican senators are getting caught in bathroom stalls and whorehouses and one wonders what the Democrats could possibly do to give George Bush the upper hand with swing voters.

Oh yeah. They could attack a highly decorated general.

Ugh. It's deja vu all over again.

Comments

[NHGranite]

OMG, I can't believe I am agreeing with you, Joe. While I firmly believe Moveon.org had every right to say what they did, the headline was disgusting and unnecessary. But to have the US Senate call a resolution and to have people screaming about how it's against the troops (which it wasn't) is just more part of the bad show that American politics has become. How about attention to real issues of the war? Isn't that bad enough? Shame on all of us.

[AnotherunhappyDemocrat]

Would one of you "horrified" reasonable types please explain to me why telling the truth is disgusting? I just don't get it. Why can't we attack a general who allows himself to be used as political cover for the White House? This is just absurd.

[clevelandchick]

I totally agree. There's a segment within the Dem party that is rather Neville Chamberlain-like. Letting Republicans use straw-men to bash them over the head is not only absurd, it's cowardly.

The reason Congress has such a low approval rating is because the Democrats are letting themselves get beat up over not just the big issues but the minute ones as well.

[metsfan1]

Couldn't have said it better. AMEN!

[mommamia526]

O.k., let me tell you. Petraeus is not a member of the political parties; he is in the military, and he does as he is told. The ad was ineffective at best, and wrong, politically, because it used a *nametag*, changing the man's name. That is not an argument, it is wrong and it is weak. The general falls under the command of Mr. Bush, and so he does as Mr. Bush tells him. Now, in a private discussion with Mr. Bush he might have been invited to tell Mr. Bush what his true opinion is, and then he would have done so. I am all for criticism and dialogue. And I am sorry, that MoveOn.org had nothing better to say. However, they are looking for writers, if I may believe what came in on my email. The other side of thi story is, of course, that the White House, or the government can not put a gag-order on any political movement, or pronouncement, as this runs counter to the idea of free speech. Now, if you are so unhappy, think about all this, and then come back to us.

[flipside]

Help me out here. You agree the ad was an attack on the general.

Said general is Commander of the Iraq theatre.

He has been tasked with formulating a strategy to neutralize the insurgency (no surprise he is considered the foremost U.S. expert in counter-insurgency tactics) that defines the conflict in Iraq.

He is responsible, above all others, for the soldiers toeing that "line in the sand"; he is their LEADER. He is responsible for their tactics, their actions, their welfare.

And somehow you think you can attack him without attacking them....

Well....
Some pills make you larger,
and some pills make you small,
but the ones your mother gives you
don't do anything at all...
(Grace Slick-Jefferson Airplane/Go Ask Alice)

[dcazal01]

Then you agree he is a liar his responsibilities made him lie.

Move on move on is responsible for stopping the War IF that takes attacking a general the should do it. In war we all have responsibilities that include lying.

[simpleshepard]

Hey Knuckle dragger,
First you try to tie Iraq to 911. A huge stinking Lie. Now you want us to get behind every single lie that comes out of our military's mouth and call anyone who questions those lies or call thems lies as unpatriotic. Your pill makes you a sheeple. When are you people going to get your heads out of the sand and forget your party politics and start to ask what is good for America? Sober up! Iraq is a foreign Policy Disaster. There is nothing we can do militarily there. Civil WAR is what is happening there. Brought on by Our incompetence, I know it hurts. So take the pill that will set you free it is called the Truth. Twelve years of lieing to yourself is as close to being unpatriotic as you can get. Stand up straight dust your knuckles off and lets all get together and do what is right for our country now. Get out of Iraq.

[jolietjohann]

Joe,

The ad didn't attack soldiers in a war zone, it attacked the notion that the Military is being used for political purposes by this weakened President. Watch your stablemate Olbermann's special comment to get at the truth of this.

How's it going next door to Wackovania?

[JustusLeague]

Joe's right. I cancelled my Moveon.org participation after this bonehead ad. They've gotten so full of themselves lately, they've gone on the attack (Petraus or Guliani) using the same right-wing style tactics that digusted Democratic voters like myself in the first place. If they thought this was a fundraiser ploy, it backfired. They need to go back to using positive messages to back local candidates in local elections and stop thinking they can set the agenda. Then, we might get back onboard.

[metsfan1]

Boy are you wrong. MoveON is making it big on this one because they told the damned truth!

[CaptainVideo]

I responded by sending MoveOn another contribution.

But I'm not contributing to the ads against Guiliani in Iowa. If this were the Presidential election such ads would make sense. But in the Republican primary, they will only help him with the Republican base.

[Marlyn]

"If they thought this was a fundraiser ploy" ???

NO ... MoveOn thought they were telling the TRUTH. And they were. I support them 100%. Thank you MoveOn for being there.

[CVilleDem]

Yeah, JustusLeague. I really believe you were donating regularly to moveon.org! What a bunch of bull! If you backed moveon before, there is nothing in this ad that would make you back off from the things they are for, even if you disagreed with one ad.

Do you call getting $500,000 in one day a back-fire in the fundraising department?

Guess what? General Petraeus DID betray us? Is your problem that his name rhymes with what he did? How is it that the people whose actions cause death and disabilities in soldiers are supposedly pro-troops, and those who want them home with their families (or even defending us against our REAL enemies) are anti-troops?

Well, keep your (fake) donations, or send them to the GOP, but there is not another person in this world who would have made such a mess of our country, its constitution, and the world in general than the idiot who resides in the white house. Everything he has ever touched has rotted, including General Betray Us!

[KatieBeGood]

Give me a break. With what you wrote here you proved that you have never been a member of moveon.org.

Don't you just love the internet? You can be anyone you want to be, and no one will know that your are full of shit.

[coribbean]

Joe;
You are one of the conservatives I like the most to listen to on t.v. I am glad you blogged this because you are right. Some Dems are acting like they just don't want to win in '08 and it is scaring me. Why did we elect them to both House and Senate majorities in '06 if they are going to act like adolescents and fritter away the power we gave them. BUT: it is also important to remember to make the distinction between Moveon.org and the Democrats in general. One is not equivalent to the other. Analogy: Ann Coulter = Republican mainstream. True or False?

[cardholder]

I am a moveon member and I contributed to the fund to run this ad. Please, do not compare me to Ann Coulter! Does the name "Max Cleveland" and the historic defamation of a decorated American soldier by the "Swift Boaters" ring a bell.

Are you telling us that it is Kosher for the GOP funders and supporters to lie through their teeth, with tongue in cheek, but we can't point out the orchestrated lies of this administration and it's "first fiddle" player? This ad is not a "smear". Instead it is meant as "highlighter" to show the deceitful words up for what they are. Lubricious mendacity!

[AmericanFirst1776]

Max Cleveland was decorated for dropping a grenade on his way to the O-Club and blowing himself up. Check the record. If this counts as a hero - Gerald Ford should of gotten a Medal of Honor for all his falls.

[coribbean]

Max CLELAND, NOT Cleveland. Duh.

[coribbean]

Reactionary comments don't win friends and influence people. Nor do reactionary ads that use adolescent puns on a man's name. The ad was only effective in that it struck up a national conversation. I wouldn't say it was particularly smart or witty. Grown-ups should be able to do better, but given that our president operates on about the same grade-school level of discourse, it got the job done.

[bethinCary]

Becasue pointing out that every Govt. office including the military has been politicized by GW is just bad policy?

Sorry, Joe-the reason the ad got so much publicity is becasue it got under the skin of the Republics. Pointing out the fact of how many times this administration has betrayed the American people by politicizing govt.-is called TRUTH.

In the case of the GOP-THE TRUTH HURTS.
Dems didn't do this anyone-the GOP did it to themselves.
They're just not used to getting called on it.

[BrooklynC]

I'll go back even further than Morning Joe's example. When Hubert Humphrey ran against Richard Nixon in 1968, some of my friends were so affronted by Humphrey's late rejection of Johnson's war that they sat out the election. We ended up with six more years of war and Nixon. Petraeus may indeed be a Republican functionary--his 2004 Post op-ed piece proclaiming a light at the end of the tunnel should have been a tip off and the object of some inquiry during his coronation as commander in Iraq. But there's no reason that we have to swing at every hanging curveball, like the general's name. This gives the likes of Giuliani and Romney a chance to ride a white horse while the rest of us have to walk along behind it, cleaning up the mess.

[Dunnage]

Sure your right. But for the Dems in the Senate to apologize is worse. Move on.

[booker52]

ya got that right!!!

[oldpotsmuggler]

Waking and sleeping, the first thing on Joe Scarboroughs mind is how to get a Democrat elected President. It's amazing to me that he hasn't been hired by at least one Primary Campaign team.

I live in Utah, the reddest red state ever. You know what affect MoveOn had here? No visible splash. I'm sure that I could have gone to talk radio and heard the ususal suspects mouthing the party line as perfectly as if they were reading it directly out of The Playbook. In the normal world, however, I heard as much of "maybe it will help get them back home" as I did "how dare they!".

Joe, did you see the polls before the scumbag general went to Congress showing that most folks didn't trust a word they would hear from him? In an environment without that, who knows? Or with a President that most folks were still not willing to admit that they can see right through. But we don't have that. Bush is so bad that few would trust him with a five dollar bill to go to the corner for milk. And the few that would, would still count the change and even open the bottle to make sure that he hadn't figured out a way to pollute the contents.

Son, believe me. It's not only your credibility that's been going down the crapper for the last while. He's got everyone one on the red neck side headed that way, and it's going to take more than you trolling over here on the left to get that problem turned around.

[gsuescum]

I live in NYC. The effect almost none. The biggest splash was made by the Repugs themselves.

[clevelandchick]

Amen OPS. I love when Republicans give Democrats advice as if it's to be trusted.

The American people are pissed off and not at Move On. I was not a member and never gave them a dime...until today, because I am no longer just disgusted with the Republicans, I'm doubly disgusted at Harry Reid for allowing that idiotic 'sense of the Senate' crap on the floor and twenty gutless Democrats that voted for it. Democrats don't need protest groups questioning generals to fail, by listening to the likes of Scarborough they'll do it to themselves.

No person in this country is above criticism, not even Generals. They work for us and we have a right to hold them accountable.

And Mr. Scarborough....that's coming from a life-long Ohioan whose never stepped foot in Manhattan.

[Marlyn]

DEMOCRATS voting to CONDEMN MoveOn:
MT Baucus
IN Bayh
MD Cardin
DE Carper
PA Casey
ND Conrad
ND Dorgan
CA Feinstein

[Marlyn]

DEMOCRATS voting to CONDEMN MoveOn:
Baucus-MT , Bayh-IN, Cardin-MD, Carper-DE, Casey-PA, Conrad-ND, Dorgan-ND, Feinstein-CA, Johnson-SD, Klobuchar-MN, Kohl-WI, Landrieu-LA, Leahy-VT, Lincoln-AR, McCaskill-MO, Mikulski-MD, Nelson-FL, Nelson-NE, Pryor-AR, Salazar-CO, Tester-MT, Webb-VA

NOT VOTING: Biden-DE, Cantwell-WA, Obama-IL

[ChicaOfLight78]

I'm a thousand times more pissed by a General that doesn't have a clue as to whether this war is helping America than I am at Moveon.org! Everyone else should be, too--especially those television pundits that claim to be sensible and reasonable! (I'm thinking of YOU, Joe Scarborough.)

[WoodyCPM]

I gave MoveOn $25 after the ad appeared. Scarborough is another one of those "centrist Democrats" who are really Republicans. They think they're being all "balanced" and "fair" and blah, blah, blah while the RNC, their noise machine and their toadies in the US Congress rip their throats out. "Democrats" like Scarborough are part of the problem.

Strike! General Strike! Tuesday, November 6.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2007/10/0081720

Here are the first two paragraphs of the article:

Specific Suggestion
by Garret Keizer

Of all the various depredations of the Bush regime, none has been so thorough as its plundering of hope. Iraq will recover sooner. What was supposed to have been the crux of our foreign policy—a shock-and-awe tutorial on the utter futility of any opposition to the whims of American power—has achieved its greatest and perhaps its only lasting success in the American soul. You will want to cite the exceptions, the lunch-hour protests against the war, the dinner-party ejaculations of dissent, though you might also want to ask what substantive difference they bear to grousing about the weather or even to raging against the dying of the light—that is, to any ritualized complaint against forces universally acknowledged as unalterable. Bush is no longer the name of a president so much as the abbreviation of a proverb, something between Murphy’s Law and tomorrow’s fatal inducement to drink and be merry today.

If someone were to suggest, for example, that we begin a general strike on Election Day, November 6, 2007, for the sole purpose of removing this regime from power, how readily and with what well-practiced assurance would you find yourself producing the words “It won’t do any good”? Plausible and even courageous in the mouth of a patient who knows he’s going to die, the sentiment fits equally well in the heart of a citizen-ry that believes it is already dead.
------

Go read this, please. Pass this on! Let's do this.

[booker52]

Another from Utah, and I go with you on this one!!!

[ohiostate98]

Mind your own business.

[kroses98]

I agree with "ohiostate98!" This from someone trying to make it on TV, who says that "The Democrats Don't Own Me," "The Republicans Don't Own Me." Who's he trying to kid? Just watch a few minutes of his show, and you will soon see that he is owned "lock, stock, and barrel" by the Rethuglican Party! He lives, sleeps, and breathes it! No good Democrat in their right mind would EVER take advice from this guy! It would be like taking advice from Cheney! I have always been one of the 3.2 million of MoveOn's members, but have never contributed too much money to them in the past, and have never given on-line at all. Since this flap, I have donated to them twice on-line, and I am sure that there are many more like me! Because of Scarborough's dumb "chimpy" leader, I would bet that MoveOn will be richer by millions in the next few days!

[Verity1025]

I just donated to MoveOn also, probably for the second time ever.

". . . base in Manhattan and Madison . . ." I don't think so, unless Mr. Scarborough is talking about Manhattan, Kansas. I am from Kansas and there are any number of MoveOn members here.

But thanks, Mr. Scarbourough, you probably just irritated a bunch more people who will support MoveOn.

[Lemeritus]

kroses98, I've got to say a kind word for Mr. Scarborough -- though not on this issue. When the NSA wiretapping story broke (sadly, AFTER the 04 elections -- thank you very much, NYT!), Joe did my heart good when. on his then program "Scarborough Country", he gave me one of my favorite mantras: "Get a warrant!" Said he:

"Hey, memo to the president and congressional leaders who signed up on this lousy program; We don‘t trust you anymore. We don‘t trust you with our phone bills. We don‘t trust you with our bank records. We don‘t trust you with our medical histories. From now on, if you want to look at Americans‘ private records, get a damn search warrant!"

Since then, I've always had an unwavering affection for the guy.

Didn't stop me from making a donation to MoveOn today, but them's the breaks.

[CynAnne]

... I hear ya, kroses98! I've had the 'pleasure' of catching a few fleeting moments of "MorningJoe" and before that, Joes show that came on after the marvelous Keith Olbermann, and although Scarborough makes a few token comments that could be construed as 'liberal', by and large Joes a conservative, through and through..! ;) ...

[Professor73]

You all need to keep sending your money to MoveOn.org. Matter of fact, you should consider doubling or tripling it. The more money they have, the more they will spend, and with that spending, they will ignite the passive voter to take a stand in 2008. It will be interesting to see who wins.

[freddyandeddy]

This post comes from a San Francisco born lefty - LISTEN TO THIS MAN!!! Let't not make the same mistakes on our side that they make on theirs. As much as the "middle" may disgust us, they are part of our country, too. Our country is about compromise and we should represent that ideal. Did I love the MoveOn ad? Absolutely. Do I think it was a good idea to run it? Hell no. Let the right continue to bury itself and shut the fuck up and kick their asses out in 2008!

[blooddoc]

The average American voter is ill-informed and easily misled. You can get a lot of things past these people, but when you start kicking around Mom, apple pie, and decorated soldiers, you usually get their attention. The Democrats are walking on eggshells because they know they've got the '08 election in the bag UNLESS somebody pisses in the soup - a candidate caught in a big lie/deception/screaming fit/bathroom stall, a cutting ad by some political action committee, or some other self-destructive move. Let the Repubs dig their own grave - they're doing a good job so far.

[KatieBeGood]

"Our country is about compromise and we should represent that ideal."

I totally disagree with you. Look at what the Democrats have accomplished while attempting to compromise with the Right. NOTHING! I would like to see the Left start learning from the Right and fighting fire with fire. They can start by threatening the "nuclear option" if the Republicans filibuster one more bill. Then they need to use every dirty trick the Republicans have used over the years. And every time they do, they need to say "we learned this from the Republicans".

[dtrobert]

Scarborough is not the middle. He is a classic right-winger. Because he is not on the far end of his ideology doesn't mean that he's anywhere near being a centrist.

That's the Republican lie, which has allowed the media in the US to completely redefine the center. A centrist today in the US is usually referred to by the media as a lefty liberal.