The MoveOn Dust-Up, the GOP's Self-Righteous Indignation, and Winning the White House
"How many times do we charge up the hill and run straight into enemy fire before we figure this shit out?"
I remember an angry Republican asking that question to no one in particular in a crowded GOP conference. The government was shut down, the public was testy and Bill Clinton was once again pounding a GOP Congress more interested in ideological purity than practical results.
This week's Moveon.org dust-up reminded me of that time when we Republicans led with our hearts and got pounded in our faces. We loved bathing in self-righteous indignation. Our base loved it too. But the practical results were always the same: we scared little children, household pets and crossover voters. It was a really great way to alienate the voters we needed the most.
Whoever dreamed up the ad questioning the loyalty of Iraq's top soldier would have fit in great with those of us who drove the political agenda in 1995 -- and guaranteed Bill Clinton's re-election in 1996. While I'm sure Move On's ad locked down the base in Manhattan and Madison, Democrats need to be more concerned with wooing voters in Tampa and Toledo.
I know this post will generate nasty emails. Every time I dare to tell Democrats how they can avoid the mistakes we Republicans made in the past, I am told to mind my own business. To those who are so offended, my apologies. Go ahead and spend the next year kicking around Generals and God. While you're at it, attack the Boy Scouts and burn a few flags for the hell of it.
You're right. Great election strategy. What was I thinking?
But for those who who actually want to win the White House in 2008, call your friends in liberal organizations and tell them to take a deep breath before they decide again to attack soldiers in a war zone.
Come on. This really shouldn't be that hard. The White House is the Democrats' to lose.
The president and his war are overwhelmingly unpopular.
The social issues that used to pull conservatives to the polls (guns, gays and God) are now so overshadowed by Mr. Bush's war that a pro-choice, pro-gun control, pro-gay New York mayor is running away with the GOP primary.
Add in the fact that Republican senators are getting caught in bathroom stalls and whorehouses and one wonders what the Democrats could possibly do to give George Bush the upper hand with swing voters.
Oh yeah. They could attack a highly decorated general.
Ugh. It's deja vu all over again.
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General Petraeus' boss, Admiral William Fallon, chief of the Central Command, derided Petraeus as a sycophant and called him "an ass-kissing little chickenshi
Will Republicans demand an apology from Admiral Fallon?
I rest my case...
Joe, the MoveOn ad was badly phrased. That being said, anyone who read the text would understand the larger concept.
Which rules out the GOP base.
Why the Dems don't flog what the GOP did to Max Cleland and John Kerry and numerous others is testament to how much better the GOP is than the Dems when it comes to the "game" that is politics.
Until the Senate calls for resolutions calling out Ann Coulter's cuntristy, this is just a desparate party not willing to play ball with reality, but more than willing to play ball with the idiots that vote for them.
If Ann Coulter is reality, I'll pass.
Joe, while I have appreciated many of your previous statements in opposition to this adventurism. I have to tell you that you are wrong in this instance.
Petraeus is a paid for killer...a
Your resort to old fashioned patriotism is a dying frame. People are now more aware than ever that your Party is infested with thieves, liars, and killers. It is only in the Red Death media where this crap is given any currency.
Joe I respect the Hell out of you, coming on and talking to a group with would most likely spit on you than listen, I do listen to you, more than most of those on your party line because you will say when you are right and when you are wrong. could have been less angry, most likely but when the GOP picks on a man that gave everything including three limbs in nam, don't tell us how we should do it, when GOP is still doing this. no one condemed the swift boat vets, or those that ask about mclain and a black bastard child. so don't get all uppty and telling us how we do shouldnt' it. maybe you are more upset because we are willing to take your game and play it, that we aren't going to back down for once, that we are going to fight clean or dirty but we are (unlike the GOP) be truthful. did it shock people HELL YES, but did people read that won't have. and thanks to gop and the moron dems that voted to comdemed "Moveon" I say this, thank you for showing the world that you ARE and still more about your "heart" than doing something like getting us OUT OF A FUCKING WAR... he lied to us... ALL OF US... just Moveon had the balls to call him a lair.
"There you go again" Republicans, accusing others of not supporting the troops, blah, blah, blah. The hypocrisy of the Grand Old Psychopaths knows no bounds. Thanks Joe for inspiring me to donate to MoveOn in the cause for free speech, democracy and peace.
YOu're right, of course.
Except that it wasn't Democrats who attacked the general. It was a leftist online community, a group also known for attacking Democrats who don't appear left enough.
Please don't perpetuate the myth that Democrats did this.
True. Some cowardly Demoocrats are unwilling to criticize a general who is trying a pull a fast one on the American people.
Of course petraeus did not tell the truth. I will lie to save one life. War means killing and dieing not telling the truth.
He is an honorable liar, he must lie what else can he do, if telling the truth hurt the moral of our troops and help the enemy his duty is to lie.
We have been lied in every war we got into as were all of our enemies. We believed every lie we were told as did our enemies. Tell me something new
petraeus did not betray us the duty of a general is to lie in times of war. The truth is a recipe for defeat.
The only time Hirohito told the truth was when he surrender: " We are not superior to other nations, I am not a god"
When the war fever passes we will see that Petraeus lied, he himself will say it in a memoir as some of the vietnam generals did.
"his duty is to lie."
DUTY is a 4 letter word.
Republicans can operate with impunity, dirty tricks, scare tactics and no one holds them accountable, but when one of theirs is criticized with facts and evidence (non less than the GAO & NIA), the GOP cries foul. How hypocritical!
If the Republicans want to support the military, they should allow serving personnel more time to spend at home before redeployment, provide decent pay and benefits for them and their families, and have decent military and VA hospitals. They're not ready to do this, but whine those opposing the war don't want to support the troops. If the Republicans are serious about supporting the military, they should act accordingly.
Republicas smeared the military records and motives of John McCain, McLellan and Kerry with lies (non of those Swift Boat folks had served in Nam), and no one complained. Now the tables turned (with good reason), and they have their knickers in knots. Patreaus was "pimped" by Bush to peddle his lies. Bush knows his credibility is gone, and hides behind the General to elude accountability for his policy in Iraq. Patreaus, being the good soldier, obeying his Commander-in-Chief, was "just following orders," a plea heard from the Nazi war criminals at Nuremberg. When it becomes convenient, or if Patreaus gets the backbone to speak the truth as his others did (about the failure of this war), he'll be cut lose and cast off: retired or demoted.
I can't wait til the wingnuts in Congress start holding hearings to find out if people have affiliations with MoveOn.org.
It's almost like we're the new red scare.
It's pretty freaking unbelievable. I wonder if MoveOn.org printed an ad criticizing John Kerry (Jack Murtha, Jim Webb, Max Cleland, John Batiste, Tony Zinni, John Abizaid) if anyone would have noticed? My guess is the Senate wouldn't have cared.
Joe, You are one of the few conservatives I can actually tolerate. But it is pretty damned funny you criticizing the Democrats for the MoveOn.org ad that "attacked a highly decorated general". It's not like the wingnuts on your side of the aisle ever criticized "soldiers in a war zone", right? Right. In fact, I recall Republicans actually impeaching our commander in chief when he was actually pursuing Osama Been Forgotten.
Unfortunately, the conventional DC wisdom is the Democrats in Congress need to move to a proverbial "center" in order to "compromise"
with the President who has remained unwilling to compromise on anything. Well, my friend, in order to accomplish that, the Democrats need to do a hell of alot more than move to the "center". They need to become Goldwater conservatives in order to even come close to reaching a compromise with this President and his stubborn loyalists in the Senate. And with these neocon fundamentalist extremists, there's no guarantee THAT will work.
Meanwhile, the only "center" where the American people are at includes demanding a change in policy along with a timetable for withdrawal.
I'm glad the ad ruffled some feathers. As Move.org member, I can take the heat. In my opinion, we're not having damn near enough discussions and debates with our friends, family and neighbors about this devastating occupation and the erosion of our civil liberties. People are too damned complacent about it.
Yea, we accused the General of betraying us. Here's why. He's marketing an occupation he, himself, is commanding. Now you tell me why I should trust him or anyone in Bush's administration about anything.
Coulter, O'reilly $ Savage. thats the answer that the democrats should give.
These folks say much worse, daily than moveon or daily kos ever does.
if we didnt have a dimwitted chickenhawk president who at age 60 still acts like a toddler and hides behind the military (knowing he has no credibility) the generals wouldnt be in the line of fire (politically anyway,LOL) to begin with.
why is it ok for the GOP presidential candidates to cater to their base, but it's not ok for the democratic party to do the same?s to. Remember the evolution question at the first GOP debate?
and also, why is it that "people of faith" have to be listened to, but "people of peace" dont get the same consideration?
and also, a vast majority of the country wants us out, so movon's agenda isnt "liberal" its mainstream.
Thank-you Joe. I am a Democrat, but I will say for whatever one might think about about what the general said or was doing, calling him a name that implies he is a traitor was just plain stupid. This senate vote thing should have never happened and could have been avoided if the Moveon ad people and approving authority simply acted like adults.
We have an appointed president and his neocons calling us ALL traitors.
MoveOn!! Or get outta the way! Kind of our version of, "You're either with us or you're against us!"
Sorry to sound so radical, just trying to live up to the right wing's exaggerated radicalization of MoveOn. Actually us MoveOn members are pretty harmless. Its not like we're going to take your habeus corpus rights away, or eavesdrop, or lead you into a war or something, or buy a lot of favors from politicians, or unfairly redistrict states. :)
Except for maybe tracking down Bin Laden at some point, that sure would be a"radical" change.
Oh, and if you're a general and get involved in politics like Petraeus has, well he is fair game. I don't see anyone throwing barbs at the rest of the military which have acted professionally since day one. Well, maybe except for that guy that authorized and supervised the torture at Abu Ghraib. Should have run an ad on him. :)
Seriously, I think its time to stop saying what we think everyone wants to hear in order to win elections, and talk straight like MoveOn has done. We'll probably find that the majority of us agree. Rather than sounding and probably re-inforcing a minority point of view, which is probably what Scarborough is trying to get us to do.
Mr Scarborugh--I wish MoveOn did the same to highly decorated Gen Powell when he went in front of UN and allowed himself to shill lies for the administration wittingly or unwittingly. They would have highlighted that Gen Powells facts are wrong despite the messenger.
And perhaps averted the war.
This is about standing up for the truth and for facts.
There is nothing factually wrong about the AD. Go to the MoveOn home page and check out the Ad and the facts underlying the AD. Also listen to Eli Praiser talking about the Ad and future plans.
Stand for the truth and for facts. MoveOn Members are just ordinary people --the public with no ulterior motive but to do the right thing and stand for the right things. And you know we need to bring the troops home.
So, um, why would Joe Scarborough want to give advice on winning elections to Democrats? Just curious.
Could it be that Joe Scarborough, and other conservatives who hold loyalty so dear, feel betrayed by this administration?
"Could it be that Joe Scarborough, and other conservatives who hold loyalty so dear, feel betrayed by this administration?"
I didn't hear Joe say that.
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