Johann Hari

Johann Hari

Posted February 5, 2009 | 05:20 PM (EST)

Israel Is About to Make a Misjudgement as Disastrous as Gaza

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Israel is about to make a misjudgment as disastrous -- and deadly -- as the attack on Gaza. In a few days, it looks likely to re-elect Benjamin Netanyahu as Prime Minister once again.

This is a man calling for the violent re-occupation of Gaza to "liquidate" its elected government. This is a man who says he will "naturally grow" the West Bank settlements. This is a man who says he will "never" negotiate over Jerusalem, or the Golan Heights, or control of the West Bank water supply. This is a man who says establishing a Palestinian state would leave Israel with "an existential threat and a public relations nightmare reminiscent of 1938 Czechoslovakia." This is a man who Yitzhak Rabin's widow says helped to incite his murder.

The political beneficiaries of Operation Cast Lead have been Israel's hard-right. The opinion poll numbers have surged for Netanyahu's Likud and for the even more extreme Avigdor Lieberman, a Russian immigrant was openly advocates the ethnic cleansing of Arabs. They say the only problem with the 23-day bombing of Gaza -- killing 410 children, and hugely strengthening Hamas -- is that it didn't go far enough.

The world needs to urgently look at these individuals and ask how this came to pass.

Everybody agrees that the key to understanding Netanyahu lies with his father, Benzion. He is a distinguished scholar of medieval history who believes the world is eternally and ineradicably riddled with genocidal anti-Semitism. When he arrived in British Mandate Palestine, he declared that the majority of Jews there were naïve and idealistic. They had to immediately seize the entire Biblical land of Israel -- taking all of the West Bank and stretching right into present-day Jordan. There could be no compromise, ever, with the Arabs, who only understand force. The man he calls his mentor, Abba Ahimeir, described himself proudly as "a fascist."

Today, Benzion's son routinely compares dealing with the Palestinians to dealing with Nazis. He can only understand their anger as a resurfacing of Europe's irrational, genocidal hate. He insists they have no right to a share of the land because they "stole" it -- in the year 636 AD. He writes: "It was not the Jews who usurped the land from the Arabs, but the Arabs who usurped the land from the Jews... twelve hundred years ago."

Accordingly, Netanyahu rubbishes every peace initiative offered by Israel. His reaction to Yitzhak Rabin's decision to sign the mild and moderate Oslo accords with Yassir Arafat reveals the depth of his opposition to compromise. He warmly addressed crowds which chanted "Rabin is a Nazi" and "through blood and fire, Rabin shall expire." He called the Prime Minister "a traitor", shortly before Rabin was murdered by a Jewish fundamentalist who agreed.

In order to justify his opposition to all compromise to the Obama administration, Netanyahu has adopted a neat distraction-idea. He says he wants "economic peace" with the Palestinians, developing their economy, rather the political process. But how can anything develop amidst the rubble, blockade and roadblocks he has in mind? This is a piece of spin to sugar-coat the on-going occupation.

The other person who has surged ahead in the polls -- and looks likely to be Netanyahu's coalition partner -- is Avigdor Liberman, a Russian ex-nightclub bouncer who was once arrested for attacking a boy who he suspected of insulting his son. Lieberman grew up in the Soviet system -- and he retains a Soviet mindset. His party, Yisrael Beytenu (Israel, Our Home) has campaigned claiming that Israel's two million Arab citizens are "a danger to the country", to be dispensed with, in part, by ethnic cleansing. Lieberman wanted to bus thousands of released Palestinian prisoners to the Dead Sea and drown them.

Today, he has moderated his stance and merely wants to "transfer" many hundreds of thousands of Israeli Arabs -- inevitably by force -- to the scraps of remaining land that will be labeled Palestine after Israel has annexed the major illegal settlement blocks. If your name's not on the list, you're not staying in.

At times, he says his model for how to deal with the Palestinians is Cyprus in the 1970s, where the mixed Turkish and Greek populations were separated out at gunpoint. "The final result was better," he sighs. "Minorities are the biggest problem in the world." He would like to begin these racist expulsions with a simple, swift move: executing Israeli Arab members of the Knesset. Since they have spoken to the democratically elected Palestinian leadership, they are "traitors", Lieberman argues. They should be dealt with "like Hamas."

At other times, Lieberman shifts analogy, and says the correct model for dealing with Gaza and the West Bank should be to copy Vladimir Putin's approach to Chechnya in the 1990s. One third of the civilian population died.

Perhaps even more depressing than the rise of these political thugs is the flat and flat-lining response from the other parties. Both Kadima and Labour militantly defend the blockade and bombing of Gaza, not least because their leaders -- Tzipi Livni and Ehud Barak -- led the charge in cabinet. Even Barak has picked up the comparison to Putin and started approvingly quoting the new Russia Tsar. The brave pro-peace parties like Meeretz are shunted far to the margins of the debate.

How did this happen? It is essential to remember that Israelis didn't end up in the Middle East out of a wicked desire to colonise and kill, as some people now gleefully claim. They are there because they were fleeing genocidal Jew-hatred. That doesn't justify a single crime against a single Palestinian -- but if we forget this, and the unimaginably vast trauma that lies behind it, we cannot understand what is happening now.

Over the past few months, I keep returning to an extraordinary essay written by the great Israel novellist Amos Oz in 1982. The Likud Prime Minister Menachem Begin had compared the Palestinian leadership to Adolf Hitler, so Oz wrote: "You display an urge to resurrect Hitler from the dead so you may kill him over and over again each day... Like many Jews, I feel sorry I feel sorry I didn't kill Hitler with my bare hands. But there is not, and there never will be, any healing for the open wound. Tens of thousands of dead Arabs will not heal that wound. Because, Mr Begin, Adolf Hitler is dead. He is not hiding in Nabatiyah, in Sidon, or in Beirut. He is dead and burned to ashes."

Israeli society consists, Oz says, of "a bunch of half-hysterical refugees and survivors". The two thousand year trauma of the blood libel, the Inquisition, the pogroms, Auschwitz and Chelmno and the Gulag Archipelago, have produced a distorted vision, where every shriek of pain directed at Israel can sound like the rumble beginning in the massed crowds at Nuremberg.

This means that Israel is missing opportunities for peace. Even much of Hamas -- an Islamist party I passionately oppose -- is amenable to a long-term ceasefire along the 1967 borders. That isn't my opinion; it is the view of Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet. He told the Israeli cabinet before the bombing of Gaza that Hamas would restore the ceasefire if Israel would only end the blockade of the Strip and declare a ceasefire on the West Bank. Instead, they bombed, and the offer died.

The former head of Mossad, Ephraim Halevy, says that Hamas "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" if only Israel will begin the path of compromise. This would drain support for the really implacable rejectionists like Osama Bin Laden and Mahmoud Ahmadinejadh, and make it easier to build the international coalitions needed to hold them back.

Instead, too many Israelis -- imprisoned by their history -- seem determined to choose the opposite path: of Netanyahu and Lieberman and ramming an endless alienating boot onto the throat of the Palestinians. It doesn't have to be like this. We can only say to them with Amos Oz, as urgently as we can: Adolf Hitler is not hiding in Gaza City, or Beit Hanoun, or Hebron. Adolf Hitler is dead.

Johann Hari is a writer for the Independent. To read more of his articles, click here. For an archive of his articles on Israel/Palestine specifically, click here.

Israel is about to make a misjudgment as disastrous -- and deadly -- as the attack on Gaza. In a few days, it looks likely to re-elect Benjamin Netanyahu as Prime Minister once again. This is a man ...
Israel is about to make a misjudgment as disastrous -- and deadly -- as the attack on Gaza. In a few days, it looks likely to re-elect Benjamin Netanyahu as Prime Minister once again. This is a man ...
 
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- jqcitizen I'm a Fan of jqcitizen 6 fans permalink

Saudi Arabia recently pledged $1 Billion to help Gaza rebuild. It seems that Netanyahu and his Likud Party are hellbent on destroying Gaza.

Who benefits from this endless circle of rebuild and then destroy?

As for me, a US taxpayer, it might help if US war equipment would no longer be supplied to Israel or Saudi Arabia. If the countries in that region of the world don't want to settle their differences diplomatically then let them fight with sticks and stones.

-Lastly, it's way past time to cut all funding to Halliburton-KBR. which is another example of wasted taxpayer money in the furtherance of 'Peace'.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:20 PM on 02/07/2009
- SpoonieLuv I'm a Fan of SpoonieLuv 13 fans permalink
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I couldn't agree with you more.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:07 PM on 02/12/2009
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Am I mistaken, or does the Bible clearly record the Jews emerging from their 40 years in the desert to "usurp" the land from the people whom they found there?

quote:
Today, Benzion's son routinely compares dealing with the Palestinians to dealing with Nazis. He can only understand their anger as a resurfacing of Europe's irrational, genocidal hate. He insists they have no right to a share of the land because they "stole" it -- in the year 636 AD. He writes: "It was not the Jews who usurped the land from the Arabs, but the Arabs who usurped the land from the Jews... twelve hundred years ago."
/quote

I mean, it is plain silly for any Israeli to claim "He can only understand their anger as a resurfacing of Europe's irrational, genocidal hate." We all know that when the state of Israel was established, Palestinians were forcibly exiled, and that this is still within the lifetimes of some people still living. Other Palestinians have heard the stories from parents and grandparents who only recently passed away. 636 A.D. doesn't count. It is literally just history. The 20th century usurpation of Palestinian land, on the contrary, is a living memory, completely different.

People like Netanyahu who cannot live peacefully with their neighbors, are uncivilized beasts, not humans with a differing opinion.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:31 AM on 02/07/2009
- Archie1955 I'm a Fan of Archie1955 13 fans permalink

It may be time to save Israel from itself. The US has always backed Israel even when the actions being backed were against international law or contrary to UN resolutions or just plain wrong. It is long past the point where the US must advise Israel that it will no longer support every disasterous policy, every inhumane action, every bombing raid, every measure of contempt that Israel forces on the Palestinians. It is now appropriate to tell Israel that it will no longer receive US armaments, US cash, US vetos of actions against Israel voted for by the Security Counsel unless it changes its attitude vis a vis the desire of Palestinians to have a homeland. That one change in policy could create lasting peace in the Middle East.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:33 AM on 02/07/2009
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We've treated Netanyahoo with incredible prestige these past decades instead of a criminal. It really is sad indeed.

Thank you Mr. Hari for your courage as always.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:25 AM on 02/07/2009
- piul05 I'm a Fan of piul05 52 fans permalink
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So true.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 02/07/2009

Here's just what the world needs: more fiery name-calling and sentimental hype against Israel. Can we put aside the theatrics and focus on the real issue here?
Hamas is a terrorist organization with an unabashed intention to destroy the Jewish people of Israel. They are shooting rockets at Israeli civilians, using Palestinian children as a human shield. Facing this ruthless enemy, the Israeli government would be irresponsible to not take a strong stance in defending its people from this ongoing threat of annihilation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 02/06/2009
- skialethia I'm a Fan of skialethia 134 fans permalink
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And what was the excuse 20 years ago? What was the excuse 30 years ago? I s r a el has found excuses and justification to conduct oppression and apartheid for some 60 years! Honestly, enough is enough!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:54 AM on 02/07/2009
- repearwo I'm a Fan of repearwo 35 fans permalink
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Yes, Enough!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 PM on 02/07/2009

You are just repeating war slogans here.

Israel can't keep creating enemies then claim defence when it goes after them. By crushing the Palestinians in flesh and in spirit, you create radicals, which excuses more crushing etc.

IT is clear that Hamas's 'destroy Israel' is posturing. They haven't the means, and indications are they haven't the will either - they want a deal that doesn't feel like submission.

Israel needs the US's tough love. Stop fooling around, make the obviouse in-our-faces deal now or no more money, no more US shield in the UN and no more arms. We get tough will so many other countries but haven't the guts to call Israel to heel.

Sad, and everyone suffers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:58 PM on 02/11/2009

The situation is as this:
Israel does not seek peace, because it would have to make some territorial concessions.
The Hamas does not want peace, because it would make themselves obsolete.
So, let them fight until they get sick of it... It may take another century...
The weapon-selling corporates continue making profit with this misculture of hate...
The world is watching, but has no guts to interfere with a robust madate.
So far, it is a lose-lose-loss

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:06 PM on 02/06/2009

"Israel does not seek peace, because it would have to make some territorial concessions."
Nothing wrong with occasional 1001 tales reading. But let's introduce some facts, shall we.
Territorial concessions--
Gave ENTIRE Sinai back to Egypt. Including the only oil deposts in its posession.
Gave up control of South Lebanon.
Brought Arafat and his entire band into territories and gave him control of W. Bank and Gaza.
Unilaterally evicted Israeli settlers from Gaza.
Sorry to interpose reality into fairy tales. But do go on.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:30 AM on 02/07/2009
- jackstpaul I'm a Fan of jackstpaul 9 fans permalink

No apologies here for imposing reality into faux logic parading itself as reality. No apologizes for raising the discourse from density to intelligent

Key phrase "Gave Back"

That's not a concession, that's returning stolen property.

People come and take over your house and farm using guns and bombs and tanks and jets and missiles.

They hold it.

They want you to bargain with them to negotiate a compromise on who gets what part of your property.

They later let you have some.

Is that a concession?

They give all of it back to you. A concession or complying with the law?

Would you agree to drop all claims to your house and land in a deal with your thieves that let them keep some of it?

Palestinians have made enormous territorial concession since 1947. They’ve given up claim to land that is theirs by the principle that land belongs to its legitimate residents. Israel took land that wasn't its to take, and either explicitly expelled Arabs or de facto expelled them by refusing to let them return to their lawful homes and land.

Evicted settlers from Gaza. I think you mean enforced a law to reverse the illegal confiscation of land by Israeli Jewish settlers of Palestinians.

Sinai, etc. Everything you mention is returning stolen land and property.

Yes, real paragons of morality in doing that, in following the law, in behaving morally.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:50 AM on 02/07/2009
- skialethia I'm a Fan of skialethia 134 fans permalink
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Did they build sprawling settlements and infrastructure on that land? Stop deceiving people, hasbara.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:57 AM on 02/07/2009
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While I do believe that Israel needs to consider retreating to the pre '67 borders, I find some of the comments below amusing.

I mean, because I'm assuming that these same people think that the US should completely turn all of our land back over to the American Indians. Australia will go back to the aboriginals. Denmark better pull out of greenland.

and what about the anglos, the saxons and all the other people of various descent that comprise England? that might get a little tricky.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:26 PM on 02/07/2009
- chaos4700 I'm a Fan of chaos4700 85 fans permalink
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Gave back Sinai. After conquering it with military force and colonizing it for three decades. Gave back South Lebanon -- oh, except Shebaa Farms. Oh, and you forgot to mention that Israel still holds onto the Golan Heights. And the West Bank? Here's a useful map of what and how much of it the Palestinians get, so very generously, from the Israelis.
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2006/05/10/the-shrinking-map-of-palestine/
(The last map showing the control of land in the West Bank as of 2006)

So the only one telling fairy tales is you, about the whole "land for peace" nonsense. The fact is, Israel bites off a big chunk, then gives back a part of it and hangs on to what it can. It's been expanding piecemeal like this for the entirety of its history.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 02/07/2009
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If Israel elect Netanyahu or Lieberman, it deserves the same treatment that Gaza has for the leadership it has.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:56 PM on 02/06/2009

re.Deserves the same treatment that Gaza has for the leadership it has."
same treatment Gaza had for the leadership?
Ahhhhh, you mean Natannayhu, like Gaza leaders should take over all government functions of the entire state via a miltary coup, throw its opponents from buildings and proclaim a Ji-had? Cute. Nahhh, that a A-rab Middle Eastern thing. Israel is too Europeanized for that.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:38 AM on 02/07/2009
- skialethia I'm a Fan of skialethia 134 fans permalink
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Is r a el is not part of Europe or the EU! Get knowledge! Europeans are disgusted with the apartheid I s r a e l is conducting and it'sonly a question of time before sanctions are imposed.

Is r a el is an apartheid state, everyone knows it, and some just don't want to pronounce it lest they be accused of anti-S.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:01 PM on 02/07/2009

Whatever the situation, one would have thought a people that suffered so much persecution themselves would know better and show an unrivalled magnanimity to those whose land they now occupy. Instead, they show an almost unrivalled brutality.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:36 PM on 02/06/2009

This is sad, kind of like an abused child who grows up to be an abuser. In an ironic twist genetic tests now show that Palestinians are more closely related to the ancient Jewish tribes than most modern Jews are. So Israelis are persecuting their own brothers and sisters.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:01 PM on 02/06/2009

Really? When did they find an ancient Jewish person to compare the DNA with?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:27 PM on 02/06/2009

Its a lot more like an abused people that decided that they would no longer tolerate being abused. If the Palestinians were saying "look, you go your way, and we'll go ours and we'll all live in peace" it would be one thing, but they aren't. They (meaning the armed factions, with the recent exception of Mr. Abbas') are saying "we're going to destroy you, and if you give us land, we'll use it to assist us in our efforts".

I don't make this up, its been written down and published by the PLO in their "Phased Plan" and in the Hamas Charter. Don't take my word on it, look it up for yourself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:30 PM on 02/06/2009

Its was a people that just emerged from genocide that refused to be driven into the sea. And since they secured their independence in 1967, the position of the armed Palestinian factions (at least until the advent of Mr. Abbas' recent positions) has been the destruction of Israel, which admitted no room for a peace agreement. With respect to the "ordinary" Palestinians (as opposed to the armed factions) there were few restrctions on their lives, including enterring into and working in Israel until the Second Intifada, which included a sustained campaign of terrorism against Israeli civilians, which no country could tolerate.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:03 PM on 02/06/2009
- Luvial I'm a Fan of Luvial 17 fans permalink

So far Obama's policy is Bush's policy in the Middle East. Whatever Israel wants, Israel gets. Obama has already resupplied Israel with white phosporous bombs. What is the US response after Israel uses their nukes? They certainly have shown they are irrational enough to do so.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:34 PM on 02/06/2009

Actually, the have shown admirable restraint with respect to the nukes, which they could well have used in the Yom Kippur War, when they were close to having been overrun.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:04 PM on 02/06/2009
- who38 I'm a Fan of who38 64 fans permalink

Yes, Israelis are noted for their restraint, aren't they? Did they actually have nukes in 1967?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:04 PM on 02/06/2009
- phlashba I'm a Fan of phlashba 14 fans permalink

Keep trying to rationalize hatred and violence. It will never be rational or just no matter how tight you clench your teeth, or how much "evidence" you trot out.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:17 PM on 02/06/2009

Wow! There is no excuse for the wanton brutality and seemingly capricious cruelty, but it does help to understand the dynamic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:08 PM on 02/06/2009

Having Netanyahu as Israeli PM may end up being Obama's greatest headache. Obama may have to chose between opposing Israel or supporting ethnic cleansing. The logical outcome of that will lead to an enormous showdown here in the US. And it will end up costing both Obama and the Israel lobby very dearly. In the end only Hamas will benefit from Israel's reckless extremism. Do any Israeli politicians look at the future? Whether there will be an Israel 50 or 75 years down the road? Do they really think that a few million Jews can permanently dominate over one hundred million Arab neighbors? And how will it end?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:52 PM on 02/06/2009
- who38 I'm a Fan of who38 64 fans permalink

"Do they really think that a few million Jews can permanently dominate over one hundred million Arab neighbors?" Why shouldn't they? Don't 2-4% of the US population dominate the other 96-98% when the issue is Israel?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:10 PM on 02/06/2009

A mojority of the US population supports Israel, but thanks for proffering the Protocols-style conspiracy theory.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:26 PM on 02/06/2009

"Do they really think that a few million Jews can permanently dominate over one hundred million Arab neighbors"
1.Israel doesn't need nor wish to dominate anyone. T
2.the domination thing is strictly a domain of neo-Jihadists and their supporters.
3.There's not SINGLE Arab country that desires to enter into open war with Israel. For obvious reasons- a 100% chance of crushing defeat.
Some tried. And the ones that were beaten the most are now at peace with Israel.Smart.
4..Arab states now realize that homegrown militants are FAR greater threat to the stability and peace than Israel ever was or would be.

Reality matters.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:46 AM on 02/07/2009
- jackstpaul I'm a Fan of jackstpaul 9 fans permalink


If Israel doesn't want to dominate Arabs, then why does it keeping stealing the land or resources of Arabs? In place of occupying them?

"Poor innocent Israel" would carry some weight if it stuck inside its borders as given in the 1947 Partition (which they don’t; they immediately capturer about half of the land not partitioned for a Jewish states), didn't occupy other's land, take their resources, refuse to let them have refugees return to their rightful homes, start war after war, kill Arabs at a rate of many X over Israeli's killed by Arabs,. Why don't Arab nations want to go to war with Israel (mostly they don't regardless of the Palestinians but take a hostile posture to satiate their public)? Is it because Israel is some poor little peaceful nation? No, it's because Israel is a hostile, territorially aggressive nation who refuses to abide by international law and covenants.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:19 AM on 02/07/2009
- chaos4700 I'm a Fan of chaos4700 85 fans permalink
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You forgot to mention that Israel is a rogue nuclear state.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:20 PM on 02/07/2009
- jeffepops I'm a Fan of jeffepops 7 fans permalink

I believe Bibi and Lieberman to be a disaster for Israel -- in ways greater than most who frequent this web site can know.

Their popularity, however, can be directly linked to the ascent of the extremist Hamas and its takeover of Gaza. The reason the recent Gaza military operation enjoyed so much popularity among Israel's rank and file is related to the thousands of rockets fired from Gaza in the recent years, creating a constant climate of stress and fear among the general populace. Even though the brief truce saw a reduction (not a cessation) of launches, no one on either side doubted it was only a matter of time before the attacks would resume.

Israel, if it elects Netanyanhu, will have done so in reaction to the Palestinians' own choice of a more radical and violence oriented approach toward Israel. A choice that the Palestinians should reconsider. I wonder if Mr. Hari's analysis might change a bit were he to acknowledge this factor in his considerations.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:43 PM on 02/06/2009

And Hamas’ popularity can be directly linked to the corruption of Fatah in its collaboration with Israel, and the rocket attacks can be directly linked to the inhumane blockade that Israel has imposed on Gaza since Hamas won the democratic elections there. Israel can halt the rocket attacks by ending the siege of Gaza. However, this would deny the IDF the excuse it wants to inflict punishment on the Palestinians.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:52 PM on 02/06/2009
- jeffepops I'm a Fan of jeffepops 7 fans permalink

So, Israel is to blame for Fatah's corruption, which dates back to well before the PLO became negotiating "collaborators" with Israel? When did you drop Arafat from your personal list of romantic anti-West heroes? Perhaps you were willing to put up with his unsavory behavior, such as embezzlement, as long as he was leading the charge to destroy Israel and kill civilian Jews? Hamas was murdering Jews long before it took over Gaza -- back when there was no blockade -- so I'd like to know how yo can aver that Hamas will stop attacking Israel at any point in time. You are a student of propaganda, not history.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 AM on 02/07/2009

The situation in the middle east will not cease until enough people on both sides have had enough of the killings. Look at Ireland. Blind hatred that was at times like a white hot poker. The peoples of both sides can't seem to get past the last bombings and see only retaliation at every turn. Maybe it is time the US stopped supporting Israel and let her know that until she supports a peace initiative with the Palestineans she will reap what she sows in world opinion. I believe Israel may have far more to loose than Palestine in that scenario.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:42 PM on 02/06/2009

At the time Arabs did not want Israel. But now Arab want Israel because they can not defeat her. so they are weak and weak person compromise. If Isreal is weak it would compromise. since this is not going to happened anytime soon. Then let's wait when Iran has the Nuke. Then will see if Israel will compromise or not.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:24 PM on 02/06/2009
- who38 I'm a Fan of who38 64 fans permalink

Good point. Think Israel will let Iran become a nuclear power?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:13 PM on 02/06/2009

Ok, ok. Lot's of verbage here to tell us why Netanyaho is such a bad choice. The only thing that is missing is that his father did not love him enough and he was cruel to animals as a boy.

I have another take on it. Israel is surrounded by countries and a group of people bent on it's destruction. Also, Israel sees a greater Europe being overrun by a paralisis which makes it impossible for Europeans to even admit that there is such a thing as Islamofascism bent on Israel's destruction.

So Israel, like any animal cornered and in fear, is going to react. I say more power to them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:34 PM on 02/06/2009
- who38 I'm a Fan of who38 64 fans permalink

And if Europe was overrun by a paralyis which makes it impossivbe for the US to even admit that there is such a thing as Zionanazism bent on Jordan, Lebanon and Iran's destructions, that would be okay? Less power to them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:16 PM on 02/06/2009

Fact: from 1848 until 1967 Arab states controlled Jerusalem, Gaza, West Bank, part of Israel.

No PALESTINAIN STATE WAS FORMED.
WHY?

Answer this question truthfully and the entire context of the conflict will become clear.

Background
Jordan illegally annexed West Bank and Jerusalem.
Egypt ruled Gaza with iron fist.
THERE WAS NO PROTEST AGAINST THESE ACTION.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:53 PM on 02/06/2009
- Fireslayer I'm a Fan of Fireslayer 12 fans permalink
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You are really living in the past on this one. Academic points, really.

So how is Israel illegally annexing the West Bank, Jerusalem and brutalizing Gaza any improvment? Rather worse, as it happens.

Either come out and say you are for ethnic cleansing of all of Palestine and coneed your hateful ethnicism or for the first time contribute something useful to the reconcilliation and mutual security of these two tragic peoples.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:21 PM on 02/06/2009

This is it?
20 year-control without allowing Palestinains to form a state is " AN ACADEMIC POINT"?!
This is astonishing.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:56 PM on 02/06/2009

Well?
Would Mr. Hari like to have a go at this? Why not?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:29 PM on 02/06/2009
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From 1620 until the American Revolution there was no United States of America.
Why?

There is no separate Sicilian state, does that mean there are no Sicilian people?

Until 1948 there wasn't a Jewish state. Does that mean there were no Jews until 1948?

The Arabs fought for their independence with the British, they fought with Lawrence and were betrayed by Balfour.

Your logic is as flawed as your history.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:49 PM on 02/06/2009
- who38 I'm a Fan of who38 64 fans permalink

The big M doesn't do logic, just the OT.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:18 PM on 02/06/2009

I think the point is that there was no "Palestinian People" as such at the time. Which I think is accurate and has been confirmed by Palestinian Arab commentaries of the time. All of which I think I besides the point, because whether there was or was not a "Palestinian People" back then, there is certainly one today, which deserves national self-determination, provided that the excercise of that right is limited by it not being used to deny the same right to Israelis or anyone else (and this limitation applies to all peoples (including Israelis), not just Palestinians).

A large obstacle in implimenting that right has been the PLO's "phased plan" and Hamas' analagous rejectionist stance both of which have explicitly rejected that limitation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:05 PM on 02/06/2009
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