Calling Things What They Are: More From My Conversation with Naomi Klein
But after the camera crew stopped rolling, Naomi and I kept talking. Here's a transcript of part of that conversation...
Cusack: One of my favorite quotes is from Arthur Miller, who said: "An era can be considered over when its basic illusions have been exhausted." And with The Shock Doctrine, you are basically trying to shatter and obliterate the illusion of the neo-liberal or neo-con fundamentalist free market -- this official narrative wherein we not only are supposed to worship free markets that really aren't free, we must actually kill to feed them.
What the book rightly asks is what many have felt for a very long time: shouldn't we make a moral choice that you either make defense policy or you profit from it? I think that kind of transparency would be very important to have in the public sphere. Those people who go on CNN and are treated as impartial statesmen when, in reality, the book -- which is triple footnoted and sourced -- suggests otherwise. They did hold their former jobs...I guess by defintion they are statesmen....but if we are compelled to be honest we know they are other things as well... I'm speaking of people like George Shultz or Richard Perle.
Klein: Right. If we look at who the real intellectual engines of this war are, we'd see a web of people who are not simply the statesmen they appear to me but card-carrying members of the disaster capitalism complex -- shareholders, board-members and directors of companies that profit directly and enormously from war and other disasters --
Cusack: Who would these people be..?
Klein: Well, for instance, the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq was a propaganda arm of the Bush administration, publicly making the case for the invasion of Iraq. And it was founded by Bruce Jackson, a vice president of Lockheed Martin who had been out of his job for just three months. Jackson stacked the committee with old colleagues from Lockheed -- Charles Kupperman, Lockheed Martin's vice president for space and strategic missiles was on it, and so was Douglas Graham, Lockheed's director of defense systems. And even though the committee was formed at the explicit request of the White House to make the case for war in the public mind, no one had to step down from Lockheed or sell his shares. Which was certainly good for committee members, since Lockheed's share price jumped 145 percent thanks to the war they helped engineer -- from $41 in March 2003 to $102 in February 2007. The Committee for the Liberation of Iraq was chaired by George Shultz, who wrote op-eds and went on TV beating the drums, and was presented just as this respected statesman. But Shultz hasn't been in office for decades. And in the meantime, he'd been working for Bechtel -- at the time he was calling for the invasion, he was still on its board, and since Bechtel is a privately held company, we don't know anything about his holdings. We do know that Bechtel was one of the biggest winners of the reconstruction game in Iraq, landing $2.3-billion in contracts.
Cusack: How about James Baker and the $1 billion kickback that the Carlyle Group used him to try to get from the government of Kuwait, which you wrote about in The Nation?
Klein: Right. I talk about the incredible power of the "formers." One of the distinguishing features of the Bush administration has been its reliance on outside advisers and freelance envoys to perform key functions: James Baker, Paul Bremer, Henry Kissinger, George Shultz, Richard Perle, Bruce Jackson, and so on. So you have Congress playing a rubber-stamp role during the pivotal decision-making years, and Supreme Court rulings treated as little more than gentle suggestions, while these mostly volunteer advisers have wielded enormous influence, especially when it comes to Iraq. Their power stems from the fact that they used to perform key roles in government -- they are former secretaries of state, former ambassadors and former undersecretaries of defense. All have been out of government for years and, in the meantime, have set up lucrative careers in the disaster capitalism complex. And because they are freelance government contractors, they aren't subject to the same conflict-of-interest rules as elected or appointed politicians. The effect has been to eliminate the so-called revolving door between government and industry and allow the disaster industries to simply set up shop inside the government, using the reputations of these supposedly illustrious ex-politicians as cover.
As you say, in the press, they maintain their credibility as statesmen -- their current, far more relevant work in the corporate world is almost never mentioned. You brought up Baker. He was Bush's debt envoy to Iraq while he was still a partner in the Carlyle Group, which is a major arms trader whose fortunes have exploded since the war. He was also still a partner at Baker Botts, which represents some of the largest oil companies in the world, as well as Halliburton. Kissinger is another classic example of the power of the formers because he's primarily been a businessman, not a statesman, now for some 25 years. He met with Bush and Cheney regularly making Iraq policy -- according to Bob Woodward, more than any other advisor. But who was he representing in those meetings? Kissinger has repeatedly put his business interests ahead of the public interest, most dramatically when he resigned as chair of the 9/11 Commission rather than disclose his list of corporate clients at Kissinger Associates.
Another example is Richard Perle. Richard Perle headed the Defense Policy Board. Just two months after 9/11 he launched a venture capital firm called Trireme Partners that exists to invest in the homeland security and defense sectors. One of his first investors was Boeing -- it sunk $20 million in Trireme. Meanwhile, Perle is using the Defense Policy Board to make the case for war. And of course Boeing was another one of the huge winners from the invasion of Iraq.
So I asked the question, "Why is it that we refer to Richard Perle merely as an ideologue -- rather than, say, as an arms dealer with an impressive vocabulary?"
Cusack: The question becomes one of intellectual honesty and basic morality. I wanted to talk about the players or the heirs of the Friedman legacy who are in the public sector today... The Grover Norquists and Bill Kristols of the world come to mind ...You also talk about the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, the American Enterprise Institute as pursuing the goal of the elimination of the public sphere and the total liberation of corporations.
Klein: I refer to the people in those think tanks as "the people who are paid to think by the makers of tanks" because a huge amount of the funding for these think tanks is coming directly from the weapons and homeland security industry. They are funded by some of the wealthiest families and the wealthiest corporations in this country so the question of intellectual honesty really has to come up. They exist in a strange intellectual gray zone where they get money in order to think. And besides, I'm not sure thinking really belongs in tanks.
Cusack: So you're saying that the Shultzes and the Perles and the Kissingers and the Jim Bakers of the world are embedded in the homeland security/privatized war economy?
Klein: More than embedded. I mean, they are it.
Cusack: I was trying to --
[laughter ]
Klein: Why are you trying to be polite?
Cusack: I don't know. I don't know. That's part of the problem, too: being polite with this immorality and not having the courage to call something what it is...The refusal of the Congress to challenge Bush in a meaningful way is proof of the Democratic complicity in the new economy. To name only right wing people is to ignore the central thesis of intellectual honesty as the first step in a long corrective march... So we'll have to talk about what Democrats are in on this game and name them, too...we'll have to get into that later.
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I think it is sad the way that Americans have been hypnotized to believe what the politians tell us. You can't believe anything you hear, everyone is for sale. Anyone with moral conviction sounds like a whisper amongst the roar of lies spewed to the public. Thank you John and Naomi for being who you are and attempting to open eyes and ears for us to know more than just what they tell us.
Naomi & John, You say a lot of things people would like to be informed of and then end by saying no one has the guts to tell them. You are wrong. Many people know what is the cause of our government acting out side the power we gave them in the Constitution. however, those of you who have the means to get this info to the public would rather talk the talk but not walk the walk. I have the guts and the knowledge but I need help. johnxxx
Me too.
Ironically Adam Smith ,two centuries ago, warned against the privatization of public interest industries, and especially of the military. I guess the American Military-Industrial Complex didn't get that memo either.
ASK THE UN TO LEVY CHARGES OF WAR CRIMES AGAINST BUSHCO. Then perhaps we will regain our ability to handle to mess they have left in the wake of ther terrorist reign. They have terroized the people of the world an dthose in the country they have raped.Then WE will rectify the misuse of our resources, back to one that leads in reputation and donations to the world community. WE are innovators, we are an assist to mankind when our true priciples are allowed to be expressed. WE would have already put our resources toward resolving the Burma autrosities.
No more Mrs. Nice gal. Ask the UN to lope the head of the serpent- we'll take care of the rest( Harry, Nancy, CEO's, 'religiousleaders' et al- we're going to dipose of you too.
As for the rest of the psychos around the world (Osama- we'll let those you've oppresed take care of you- Ladies, all the ladies in the house.Cast
Just finished this on audiobook and it's a fabulous book, clear, concise, great narrative.
Naomi will be on Firedoglak
Disaster capitalism is not a new idea, but more government entrepreneurs are creating “bubbles” to help the disadvantaged under the guise of virtue. This is ridiculous. Many of the dependents, uneducated, and younger generation couldn’t care less. They just want to survive… and a paycheck is the answer. These “intellectual engines” understand that economic structure. What if….
The state of business consisted of large groups of people, who are affected in these “bubbles”, and they were agreeable to provide co-operative business opportunities to their community… where everyone affected got a piece of the pie. It would be a co-operative state. In a co-op state the co-op stakeholders are the co-op members. They are accountable to each other…there is no hierarchy in terms of power. There is no one person getting rich off the providing services to the disadvantaged people.
During these disaster situations, we think money, and lots of it, will solve problems. Yes this is true to a point, but isn’t it also true that… this money should be invested in sustainable markets. If you help them setup a co-op community they have a better chance to setup a sustainable economy instead of band-aid solutions.
I feel the politicians and “intellectual engines” widen the gap between powerful and dependent people, and it is the dependent people who must take responsibility for the actions of powerful….
Just a thought. : )
I have just started reading Ms. Kliens book and it is very depressing. To begin with the powerful chapter on EST and then role into Indonesia and Chile, it is diffifult to sit and read for me personaly.
It breaks my heart, but it opens my eyes to such sadness.
I just ordered it because I understood the truth of what she was saying immediately.
Don't worry, by the time you get to the end, you will be madder than hell and prepared to reclaim our country, dignity and honor for us and future generations. Now that we know the name of the three headed dragon-Pri
The sad part is that the actions of these men, will be paid by us. It sounds like the morality Republicans get elected with is just a disguise to pursue the business of blood, using the Armed Forces to do their dirty work, including not to touch bloody remnants of a convulsing, death defiant body of a soldier or surgeon or a child. This is not anymore business. This is murder, sanctioned by Congress. It disgusts me.
We are in a losing Life & Death struggle with the Elite 270 families who control our three braches of government. Their advantage is that they know this hidden war exists and the 300 million Americans are oblivious to the real war and are distracted by the MSM headlines. And the head of this octopus is the Federal Reserve Bank. Cut off the head and the tentacles will dry up. No FED Fiat money to finance wars, no more wars. Everything else is a sham, a distraction. The Core of the beast is the FED.
The FED is the center of a fractional reserving system. It is a money system that is in reality a giant pyramid scheme. That's why we hear politicians and business magnates constantly pushing "growth".
Search for and watch a short filmclip called "Money as Debt" to learn more about this "system". Sustainability is deliberately avoided in this huge Ponzi scheme. It is really disgusting!
It disgusts me too, Hoelder. I am so ashamed.
I have a teenage grandson who at the rate we're going may be drafted in the future - I heard Charlie Rangel calling for the draft for a good reason (poor voluntary army). I'm afraid Rangel's "duty" will be to do that again since from what I can tell from the BS press, they see a "need" to invade Iran and the army, of course, is now exhausted.
My grandchildren have been brought up with love and tenderness and good SANE morals. This is a terrible worry for me.
These men perpetrated the "great train robbery". The American people did not consent with full knowledge, and that's grounds for an annullment.
In the words of Pat Buchanan, these people are committing "Economic treason" and have sold out the US Constitution and the American people. The tide is beginning to turn, and we will run the profiteers out of town.
Naomi Wolf (not to be confused with Naomi Klein) has also written an important book called ,” The End of America: A letter of Warning to a Young Patriot”. Check out the link to Amazon and read the reviews and follow up articles and link to Colbert Report interview.
http://www
America is following the classic pattern all countries have taken on the road to fascism.
http://www
Yes Guitar, this is an important book too.
What war was good for the U.S. economy? Vietnam? Iraq? Klein tries to enlist some old ideas here,i.e.,
Moreover, the federal government has restricted U.S business abroad in numerous ways, including export controls and sanctions. Corporate America is hardly shaping our national security policy. If they were, we would have dumped Israel as an ally decades ago.
And keep in mind that the defense sector is a very small part of the U.S. economy. The Iraqi War, as all wars, is bad for our economy.
No kidding, Israel is a net loss. If we were going to go with who would make us the most money, we would have backed the Arabs, there are many more of them, and they have oil money. What natural resources does Israel have? Sand?
Israel has a natural resource that the arab countries lack: their people. a democratic gov't.
Hello.They are not claiming the war is good for the economy, but its great if your an arms manufacturer,or better yet a security firm.And if your on the board of one or two of these firms and the Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, the American Enterprise Institute it can be mighty lucrative.
Right - they don't care if war is good for the U.S. economy - they care if it is good for their bank accounts. It's getting fairly obvious that pure "free market" fundamentalism is NOT good for the 95% that are not the eliite.
You misunderstand her point.
She did NOT say that war was good for the economy.
She said it was financially good for the very people and companies who were pushing the war.
They aren't America. They aren't the larger economy. But she never said or implied they were.
The defense sector is a very small part of the U.S. economy?? A half-trillion dollar yearly defense budget may be very small in the overall national economy (though I doubt it), the U.S. is, in fact, the largest supplier of war machinery on the planet. It remains one of the only #1 positions we can still claim, along with over-consumption of the world's resources.
War is great for the winning economies. Bad for people all the way around.
Fact: the US spends more on its Defense Budget than all of the rest of the Countries combined. For us, that makes it a very significant portion of the economy!
Dear John,
Nice piece but old news. Any serious student of American foreign policy can describe how the "national security state" was created during WWII and how it has been run (and running our lives)ever since. The question is, How do we dismantle it? Only one candidate speaks openly and seriously about bringing the American Empire home and that is Dr. Ron Paul. Every American, liberal or conservative, who believes in restoring this country and its Constitution should support Ron Paul because none of the other candidates, of either party, will do this. This election may be our last chance, especially if either HRC or Mayor 9/11 are elected, both of whom are part of the inner circle that has brought us to the brink of disaster and of whom you can expect nuclear war with Iran.
There is only one thing wrong with Ron Paul... He's a Republican !
Kucinich Beats him by a mile on all issues from total national heath care, education and the Iraq War.
There's only one thing wrong with Kucinich..
Now if either one would run as an Independent, I send him my weekly allowence.
You said "Only one candidate speaks openly and seriously about bringing the American Empire home and that is Dr. Ron Paul."
That is false. Dennis Kucinich has said all that and more. He has called for a "Department of Peace" which makes a lot more sense since we want peace and not war.
Darn it, Mr. Cusack, your conversation was entirely too reasonable and thoughtful. Don't you know that reason and thoughtfulness are signs of "Bush Derangement Syndrome"?
Just believe what Bush tells you, and everything will be okay.
We need to see Klein's thoughtful book receive more attention in the MSM!
A few of Klein's comments caught my attention. She said the Kissinger, Baker, Schultz, etc are not merely embedded in the homeland security/privatized war economy but they are it. She further stated that "[t]he effect has been to eliminate the so-called revolving door between government and industry and allow the disaster industries to simply set up shop inside the government, using the reputations of these supposedly illustrious ex-politicians as cover." These two statements are more than a little interesting.
Many on HuffPost have commented that Bush reached out to and appointed people to government oversight and regulatory posts from the industries that they regulate. When we consider this fact with the comments noted above in light of Mussolini's statement from the early 1920s...Mu
I was always confounded by the term Nationalso
It seems we might be setting the stage for yet another global conflict. With communism out of the way, what's left to do but squabble over what remains of the earth's resources and markets? An emerging China is a vast competitive threat, with Russia a problematic second. Blaming the opening moves on Islaofascism is convenient enough, sells it to the public and veils the intent. I doubt that anyone in the rest of the world is as gullible as the American electorate.
The economic cold war is now over. The first hot spot is Iraq. Unless changes come soon, unless the corporate goals are unmasked, it could get a whole lot hotter, leveraged on religion and xenophobia. Hmm, just like WWII.
The term Nazi is derived from the first two syllables, as pronounced in German, of the official name of the German Nazi Party, the Nationalso
I just watched "'V' is for Vendetta" - I recommend it.
Amazing movie. The leader made me think of Bush, and the media guy, Bill O Reilly :) The country needs a wake up call!
Yes, I agree.
I have recommended it to friends.
It is a good precautionary tale but too few get it.
herr Werner - Do you not realize that comparing Bush to Hitler in any manner is Verbotten(sp?) Please report to the nearest correction camp.
This is the Mercenary age, when we can't elect capable statesmen, they bring in unnassailable "ringers" to throw their bought and paid for .02 to validate said incompetent's position. What we need is a very large wrecking ball to break off the influence of these megacoporate ear bending PACS. Great work John- you're one of my favorites.
I think I read this book but by Noam Chomsky.
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