HuffPost Exclusive: My Interview with Naomi Klein

I sat down with Naomi Klein to talk about her new book, The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism. This revelatory work belongs in that rarefied air with A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn and Witness to a Century by George Seldes.

Videography by HMS Media.



Here is some of the advance praise Naomi and The Shock Doctrine:

"Naomi Klein is an investigative reporter like no other. She roams the continents with eyes wide open and her brain operating at full speed, finding connections we never thought of, and patterns which eluded us. She shows us, in clear and elegant language, how catastrophes -- natural ones like Katrina, unnatural ones like war -- become opportunities for a savage capitalism, calling itself 'the free market,' to privatize everything in sight, bringing huge profits to some, misery for others. To ensure the safety of such a system, it becomes necessary to constrict freedom, to assault human rights. The torture chambers for some then match the torturing of the larger society. This is a brilliant book, one of the most important I have read in a long time." -- Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of the United States.

"Naomi Klein is one of the most important new voices in American journalism today, as this book make clear. She has turned globalism inside out, and in so doing given all of us a new way of looking at our seemingly unending disaster in Iraq, and a new way of understanding why we got there. And she does it in a lucid, reader-friendly style that almost makes it fun to read." -- Seymour Hersh, Pulitzer prize winning investigative journalist

"Naomi Klein has written a brilliant, brave and terrifying book. It's nothing less than the secret history of what we call the 'Free Market..' It should be compulsory reading." -- Arundhati Roy, author of The God of Small Things

And this was my take on the book:

"This masterful book is a measured but furious call to arms. Naomi Klein is Antigone before the King, the antidote to the feeling of inevitability that says that we must accept murder as a legitimate economic policy. She has the audacity and the courage to chronicle the human costs of an ideology in which worshiping the markets is not enough; you must actually kill to feed them. Klein is the vanguard, the fire, the resistance and she challenges us not to join the suicide club that enables corporate cannibalism. A spectacular triumph."

So, what to do? Arundhati Roy points us home:

"Our strategy should be not only to confront empire, but to lay siege to it. To deprive it of oxygen. To shame it. To mock it. With our art, our music, our literature, our stubbornness, our joy, our brilliance, our sheer relentlessness - and our ability to tell our own stories. Stories that are different from the ones we're being brainwashed to believe. The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling - their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability. Remember this: We be many and they be few. They need us more than we need them."

To read Arianna's take on Naomi's book, click here.

To see an exclusive clip from my upcoming film, War Inc., click here

To see the trailer for War Inc, click here.

Comments

[Boadicea]

John, you're my favorite hollywood political commenter. Thanks for posting, I can't wait to read the book.

[Beaux510]

Excellent work. I'm ordering a copy now.

Thanks John.

[hickoryjim]

Great job John and Naomi! While many of us understood this issue in a broad sense and have warned against it in the past, this interview was very informing and it is scary when you consider what a foothold those who are establishing this new world order now have. A first step towards turning this evil around allow me to offer two words - AL GORE.

[elleebelle]

I recently threw out a pile of old Harper's magazines. I did, however, keep one, the September 2004 which contained "Baghdad, Year Zero" by Naomi Klein. It is one of the most remarkable pieces I've ever read and re-read (about 4 times). I look forward, almost with dread, to reading The Shock Doctrine.

[RogerHWerner]

As someone who has spent much of his life studying history what I find remarkable about the Neoconservative free market Iraq agenda was its ignorance of Western economic history. When large-scale capitalism began in America after 1865, capitalists tried to remake a largely agrarian American society into something different. The Civil War was "shock therapy" and the to be Reconstructed South and the yet to be developed West were laboratories. Corporations had their way for 35 years and America ended up the a near helpless Federal government ignoring grotesque corporate excesses that created glaring economic inequalities. This led to the rise of Populism. In response, Theodore Roosevelt, arguable our most popular and powerful president, embraced a Progressive agenda that upstaged the socialistic Populist movement.

Had any of the late 20th century free market adherents read and understood the history of their own country they might have observed that pure free market capitalism doesn't work for much the same reason that pure socialism doesn't work: Human nature works against the successful implementation of both. Greenspan and others have remarked that capitalism is the greatest system the world has ever seen for creating wealth. While this statement is correct it ignores the fact that for many reasons most people don't share in capitalistic wealth creation and so free markets create a class of haves (and have mores) and as much larger class of have nots. We saw the same pattern develop in England between 1750 and 1850 (famously described by Dickens). What is it going to take to get the free market capitalists to understand that their ideology cannot work?

It isn't surprising that Friedman and Straus came out of the University of Chicago. While an acdemically exceelent university, one need be blind not to see its ideological bias. It was established with JD Rockefeller money, who got his seed money from Cecil Rhodes. The long-term influences of such men cannot be underestimated. Many of the major schools of economics and universities were founded by capitalists and they remain bastions of free markets.

[PKSSK]

Thank you for this accurate, intelligent depiction of our history. Now if only we had a presidential candidate that could provide us with the same insight and leadership of Theodore Roosevelt, maybe we would have a second chance at making things better for all people in our nation, instead of just a chosen few!

[Moshe]

Great analysis. Thanks Roger.

Shalom.

[WorkingClass]

You cram a lot of truth in a small space. Thanks Rodger.

[jpshotwheels]

Hillary is part of the system too, and so was Bill, however they both realize how important the Middle Class & the Poor are to the corporations. If the Middle Class & the poor don't have money to shop, they can't support the companies that are part of the system. The Middle Class & the poor far excede the upper class and the rich. This is where we have the power.

Bush came in, took most of Clintons economic policies and put them on steroids. Bush, Cheney & Company/Companies, have all had a hand in the Privatization of several Government programs. They are trying to do it with our School System, Postal Service, Prison System, Disaster Intervention, and the list goes on.

Naomi, is correct the Disaster Capitilism will in the end be a Disaster. Which I don't believe was her point, but to much greed and love for money will always get you in trouble. When I saw the interview I was wondering what to do to solve the problem and they didn't get to that part in the interview. This is summed up in the following paragraph from this article.

"The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling - their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability. Remember this: We be many and they be few. They need us more than we need them."

[kellygrrrl]

according to the book, the middle class has been eliminated as necessary to the economy.
They don't care how much you spent at Wal-Mart for Back to School supplies.
The economy is 99% about the WAR.
The few who are making obscene amounts of money are making it from no-bid contracts resulting from natural disasters and Iraq.
I'm sure they could care less how many Americans are about to lose their homes this month.

[RogerHWerner]

Clinton's policies were not liberal or progressive but rather conservative and Reagan's conservative agenda didn't go far enough for the privatization fanatics: Bush was elected to finish what had been started. Hillary Clinton is supported by the corporate slass because they figure she'll be a nice placemark, someone who won't make any backward steps but who will retain the status quo so that it can be continued by the next free market lunatic they can elect.

People could indeed end the corporate revolution by united actions but the present system has been ginned to make that extremely difficult. Even unionism in this country was permitted to develop piecemeal, organized by industry with little cooperation and a lot of rivalry between the various organizations. Thus, while corporations need us more than we need them, they can act as one voice more easily than we the people. We elect governments to represent us and it is the government that needs to control the excesses of corporations. The problem we have today of course is that government has abrogated this responsibility and has climbed into bed with corporations.

Perhaps it might be easier for we the people to elect a government that actually represents us than to organize a nationwide protest consisting of a refusal to consume or a general strike as proposed by Gerrit Keizer in his Otober 2007 Harper's article. But maybe not since government has become so easily manipulated by corporate influence. I only know that a spontaneous nationwide general strike or a consumer slow down would be difficult to arrange short of extreme crisis.

[WorkingClass]

"The corporate revolution will collapse if we refuse to buy what they are selling - their ideas, their version of history, their wars, their weapons, their notion of inevitability. Remember this: We be many and they be few. They need us more than we need them."

You've got the right idea hotwheels. There is a name for it if I understand you correctly. SOLIDARITY

[LightningJoe]

A core concept to her construction is that it is shock itself that enables the deconstruction of the sphere functions into meat for privatization.

I was one of, probably, very few people to whom 9/11 was not so shocking, because for years I'd known about 1) the existence of terrorists, and their methods, 2) the vulnerability of tall buildings to attack by plane, and 3) the inevitability of someone trying it someday.

To me, the attacks were not an earth-shattering event, but something that was going to happen someday, and finally did.

But right away, people's reactions seemed strange. There were parties at which you were expected to wear a flag on your lapel, about 9/11.

I didn't wear one, because to me 9/11 was an attack on privileged arrogance, not on America; and I actually did sympathize with that sentiment, if not by any stretch of imagination with the methodology or choice of target.

I've been wondering ever since, why there's been such a core of support for the war. Even now, when it's such a glaring catastrophe, so many still seem to think it's the only option. As the supposed "reasons" for invading Iraq evaporate into nothing one by one, roughly thirty percent of our countrymen continue to grasp at the next thin excuse for the war, as if it were a life or death struggle just to keep believing that it was right.

Now I think that those people simply had never considered any such thing to be possible. It was literally unthinkable to them, until the towers fell and bludgeoned their unwilling psyches with the blunt reality of it.

I didn't have to struggle to comprehend the reality of being in one of those buildings with no way out. I had come to terms with it years before. But those who never thought such thoughts were thrown into a shock so profound they are still in it.

Go easy on them, until they can think and reason again.

[Moshe]

Well said Lightning Joe.

While I cried and mourned for the senseless loss of life, I was largely numbed to the 9/11 shock, because for far too many years, I had seen the senseless bloodshed in Israel.

But I did not have the fear in my mind and eyes that I saw in so many others. I was actually far more disturbed by the reactions of Americans to 9/11 as the fearful and numb minded are always easy pray for the rising fascist.

And it is this that raises the most frightening spector of my nightmares, another Holocaust, as the "strong" in wealth and power decide that the answers to all of their problems are to purge the racially, religiously, morally, economically, etc. unfit among them. And they no longer need be a crude as was Hitler. A designer disease or other pathogen, to which only the select have the remedy, can more quickly and efficiently do the work of the death camps.

I worry greatly about my children, about your children, and what will be.

If we do not, as a people, take control of our collective government, and by doing so, take control of our collective future, I fear that I know what will be.

Be strong in mind and spirit, educate yourself, act to make positive changes in your government and in your world while you still can, and always cling to hope. These are all we have, but if we employ these fully and with uncomprimising determination, they are all we need to create the better world all real and decent humans dream of.

Shalom to all.

[nickyboy1]

In their sick way, facists seek to "perfect" the society and, as you say, purge it of what they deem undesirable in a society. How about for profit health care? A fine way to deplete the surplus population of poor, sick, elderly and unemployed­/underempl­oyed.

[NoFactsJustTruth]

I think I sent this comment to Arianna's War, Inc. movie clip story when it was meant for here.


Thank you, Mr. C, this citizen would also like to end the twisted legalized corporate bribery system we call 'lobbying' in OUR CONgress, restore fairness doctrines AND The Constitution. Your work has ALWAYS been greatly appreciated.

To paraphrase an ancient Chinese saying, ...we live in interesting 'and criminal' times.

Looking forward to War, Inc. and reading Ms. Naomi's book.

[Gary50]

This is the powerful video I've ever seen. Hats of to Mr Cusack and especially to Naomi Klein. She defines and names the evil that we have been witnessing grow so powerful in these last seven years. In the 19th century there was an intelligent, studious, creepy little shell of a man named Carl Marx who had a theory about economics which, though well intentioned, unleashed an unprecedented evil on the world which led to the death and enslavement of hundreds of millions of people. In the twentieth century there was an affable, highly intelligent, studious man who had his own economic theory, also well intentioned, which unleashed an evil on the world similar to that of Mr. Marx. Their two theories were the exact opposite of each other but the fruit of each were the same. Let us pray that the nightmare unleashed by MR. Friedman can be stopped in it tracks and not allowed to do to the 21st century what Mr. Marx's theory did to the the 20th. I hope it's not too late.

[Andreas]

Gary50, you haven't read anything by Marx (Karl, that is) and you don't know anything about him besides the propaganda you've been fed by the apologists of the empire.

What Ms Klein does, and I applaud her for that, is EXACTLY what Marx did 150 years ago:

A critical analysis of the political economy.

How dare you associate Marx with Stalinism? How could he be responsible for something a lunatic did 40 years after his death?

Scholars all over the world hail Marx for his prophecy and clear-sightedness concerning the development of industrial capitalism. Heck, he became the Briton Of The Year in 2005 (3rd place in Germany)

Please, read Marx or shut up about him, will you?

[Moosbrugger]

Das Kapital is a really tough read. I doubt anyone actually reads it anymore.

[CAPTAINSKIPPY]

Thank you for a better view of economics, Ms. Klein! In early 2007, a PBS interview with M.Friedman covered his memoir, noting his surprised disappointment with its poor sales, and his hopes in his early years: his modified career (he wanted to be a mathematician), his first real job (govt. service! - Census bureau) courtesy of FDR's employment programs (which he opposed on principle). And as with Bush's neocons, this contradictory information eluded him, as he kept expressing his belief in "Free Markets" thru the entire interview. Welcome to the real world!

[Champlain13]

The lefty lemmings froth over anything that hints at anti-capitilism. Certainly starring in "Better Off Dead" qualifies any celebrity to banter on issues such as pricing theory.

If we must turn to the bastion on intellect otherwise known as hollywood for our position on economic systems, I prefer the movie "The Aviator". When K. Hepurn's obnoxious and arrogant Mother rudly berates the young Howard Hughes about the superiority of socialism, Hughes finally retorts, "You only feel that way about money because you have always had it".

[Andreas]

Marxism is strong among the well-educated and the wealthy, that is true, but not an argument against it.

More important, marxist and neo-marxist socialism is also strong among union workers and Social Democrats in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, Italy, etc.

These are all countries in which working people live a pretty decent life, and my guess is they happen to believe Marxism (or a union movement inspired by Marxist ideas) works for them.

[brantl]

So, when confronted by economic theory from actors you wish to dispute, you feel that quoting what an actor said IN A MOVIE is adequate rebuttal?

[Darwin48]

Champlain13, I want to thank you for quite possibly the most ignorant statement I've heard in a while. So, because John Cusack, an actor (a good one) starred in "Better Off Dead" (great movie...be­cause his job just happens to be "acor" that somehow disqualifies him from having A) an opinion B) A worthy opinion? So, you profess to know what John reads or studies in the time where he ISN'T doing a movie, but because you think that all he does is act in movies, he therefore could not possibly have an opinion. And then, you go even one better and quote what an actor says, in a scripted movie! Beautiful, just beautiful. But, by all means, let's allow people like Greenspan dictate the direction of this country's economy.
That aside...Th­ank You Mr. Cusack. I, for one, like the movies you have done, and I liked your' interview with Miss Klein, and I like the fact that you both are accessible in this format. Keep doing what you're doing. We appreciate it.

[politicky]

Champlain 13

sez:

"The lefty lemmings froth over anything that hints at anti-capit­alism."

what everrrrr..­.except that most "lefty lemmings" understand that Laissez-faire capitalism doesn't work any better than communism did alone.

It seems to be making the Laissez-faire capitalists quite happy to borrow money from the Chinese communists, though.

This "lefty lemming" will be quite surprised if this story has a happy ending.

The arrogance and ignorance of those who really run things is stunning to me:

Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780385514453&itm=1

[spicegal]

Naomi Klein and her new book need to be in the national spotlight. Unfortunately, our corporate-owned profit driven media is also part of the problem, so I suspect would not allow it. We need Jon Stewart and Bill Maher. Also, CSPAN might do something. The major networks are hopeless. What about Oprah. Somehow, people in this country need to start wrapping their minds around this before it's too late.

[rektruax]

Actually, your first two sentences are for the best. Whether or not they would "allow it" (Klein's information) is questionable, but they certainly would spin it to mean anything they want.

Be the message left or right, the major media has adapted well in the spin dept. Truly Independent (most "independents" are merely a subsidiary of the majors) sources, and some found abroad are about the only reliable ones any more.

If you consider yourself truly "liberal" as I do. It's time to go back to the old "question everything" philosophy. Even sources you may now consider truthful.

[ConcernedAboutRFuture]

I have long ago switched from a "trust but verify" mindset to a "don't trust AND verify." I don't trust anything in the media... and am constantly and continually proven right in doing so.

[Pometacom]

Wow. Naomi Klein and John Cusack. This is what should be on PBS and NPR and NBC and ABC and PBS. Why it is not is why this is happening. Thanks HuffingtonPost for putting this on-line.

[jpshotwheels]

Your not going to see this stuff on major Networks, these major media companies are part of the program, why would they educate you on their hidden agenda. Watch Democracy Now everyday, LINKTV on satelite, depending on what Satelite company you have. LINKTV is an excellent station also, News from around the world, and great documentaries.

[OhPlease2007]

If you are interested, for further reading, check out the writings of, Greg Palast; Palast studied under Milton Friedman while in college and is THE best investigative journalist on the planet:

... "beginning in the 1970s, having earned his degree in finance studying under Milton Friedman and free-trade luminaries, Palast went on to challenge their vision of a New Global Order, working for the United Steelworkers of America, the Enron workers’ coalition in Latin America and consumer and environmental groups worldwide.­"

Greg Palast is well versed in economic theory and does a superb job of explaining -- in a fine yet down to earth writing style -- the historically documented financial pitfalls of supply-side economics.

Greg Palast Sources:

1. Full Bio (Greg Palast)

http://www.gregpalast.com/about-greg/

2. Palast Books

http://www.gregpalast.com/order-the-book/

3. 'Tinker Bell, Pinochet and The Fairy Tale Miracle of Chile' by Greg Palast

http://www.gregpalast.com/tinker-bell-pinochet-and-the-fairy-tale-miracle-of-chile-2

[outnow]

Palast was a forensic economist - one who "follows the money." He audited Enron and ExxonMobil and testified in court about the fraud and the cooking of the books.

When he was assigned to audit the 2000 election by the BBC - well- you guessed it, there were gross irregularities. "Caging" of voters and phony recount tactics.

Palast was even send evidence of the caging of voters - a tactic used to suppress minority voters who serve in the armed services. E-mails were sent to his buddies e-mail address that appeared to be a George W. Bush cite. These e-mails are not evidence in the U.S. Attorney firings case. The Democrats are fighting for the rest of the smoking guns.

Minorities are "data mined" with a high degree of accuracy by neighborhood and buying habits. Once identified, their right to vote is "challenged" by the Republicans. A "provisional ballot" is then sent to the voter who doesn't receive or it isn't counted.

It's all about the money, oil, and defense contracts.

[mmckinl]

Naomi Klein has written the most important book on capitalism since Miilton Friedman.

Disaster Capitalism describes , in detail , how the Shock Doctrine works.

Her research is impecable and her thesis thoroughly supported by the facts .

In plain English , She explains what we have all observed over the years , yet didn't quite have the tools to analyse . Naomi has given us those tools and as for myself I have resolved many questions regarding History over the last 30 years ...

John Perkins hints at it in ' Confessions of an Economic Hit Man ' but Naomi goes farther ...

Chalmers Johnson decsribes symptoms in ' Sorrows of Empire ' and 'Nemesis' . However Naomi captures the
essence of , and coins the term; Disaster Capitalism ...

Naomi Klein has birthed a new era of Socio-Economic evaluation and analysis of Capitalism and History itself .

Much of the history of the last 40 Years will have to be rethought using her theory .

An amazing breakthrough ...

[totalliberal]

While we are at it, let's privatise laws. Let the international corporations make up a whole new set of them.

I mean if unfettered privatisation works so well, they will be far superior than the ones we have developed over the last 3 or 4 thousand years.

Ummm.

[kellygrrrl]

I'm pretty sure that's already happening.
If the law doesn't work for Bush, he just changes it.
And it seems pretty clear that the American folks over in Iraq are not acting within any lawful structure

[esquire07]

Great Interview.

Definately going to read her book. Brilliant.