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John Hrabe

John Hrabe

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Harvard University or Community College? Why the Choice Isn't As Crazy As It Sounds

Posted: 04/22/11 03:34 PM ET

Across the country, high school seniors are compiling lists of pros and cons to resolve the first big decision of their lives: Where should I go to college in the fall? Few, if any, of these dilemmas will come down to a choice between Harvard and the local community college.

They should.

To students with ivy-lined dreams, the thought of attending a community college sounds more like a nightmare. Community colleges might not impress at cocktail parties, but they are the best value in higher education. This fall, Harvard will charge students $36,992 for tuition, compared to a bill 34 times less at most community colleges. Don't let the higher sticker price fool you. Community colleges offer teaching instruction comparable to their four-year counterparts but won't saddle graduates with long term debt in the process.

For 50 years, a four-year degree has been the first prerequisite to the American middle class. The debt that you acquired to attain the degree was more than offset by your increased lifetime earning potential. That rationale for a college education no longer holds true today. The greatest challenge facing my generation is a growing imbalance in our debt to income ratio. The nonprofit Project on Student Debt reports that two-thirds of graduates accumulate debt on their way to graduation.

Conventional wisdom considers this good debt, but it's hard to understand why. It is almost impossible to discharge student loan debts in bankruptcy. By 2012, the nation will hold more than $1 trillion of this inescapable debt, with the average graduate's burden at $24,000.

Meanwhile, graduates are struggling to find jobs that will pay off their student loans. Last July, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that more than half of 16-to-24 year olds were out of work. It marked the highest youth unemployment rate in history and the first time that rate exceeded fifty percent. In this economy, just finding a job makes you better off than most, which is why more college graduates are taking entry-level positions. Thirty years ago, 5.1 million college graduates held jobs that the Bureau of Labor Statistics considers "non-college level jobs." By 2008, that number jumped to 17.4 million.

With the choice of no job or a bad job, many people might be tempted to start their own business. Yet, the debt from higher education is eviscerating my generation's entrepreneurial spirit. Entrepreneurship requires two things: tolerance of risk and the freedom to fail. Your early 20s, when you lack the obligations of family and mortgage payments, are the best time to take a chance on a big idea. However, you cannot take risks when you are buried in debt. Banks want to loan money to applicants with preexisting debt almost as much as young borrowers want to add to their financial burden.

Community colleges avoid this debt conundrum. A decade ago, for just $12 per unit, I completed my general education requirements at a Los Angeles-area community college. At Moorpark College, I learned public speaking from one of the nation's most accomplished speech programs, which has won nine national championships in 40 years. Had I taken the same class down the street at UCLA, I would have been taught by a second-year graduate assistant with no teaching experience.

Or worse, I might have been taught by a tenured university professor. Just as price doesn't correlate to value, academic publications are not the best bellwether of quality instruction. The most accomplished academics are often the worst teachers. Without the pressure to publish, community college professors have more time to invest in their students.

With significantly lower costs and comparable teaching, we are back to where we started: prestige. Going to a junior college is perceived as a failure.

Funny, that's not how Goldman Sachs sees it. The global investment firm is making a $500 million bet on the next big economic opportunity in higher education. They aren't working with the Ivy Leagues; they are working with the country's community colleges. Through their 10,000 Small Businesses Initiative, the firm is using a network of community colleges to provide small businesses with business classes, mentors, networking opportunities, and capital. If it is good enough for Goldman Sachs, it should be good enough for any high school senior.

No community college will ever be as prestigious as Harvard. But, before students commit themselves to a big name school with big student loans to match; it is worth considering every option, even the neighborhood community college.

John Hrabe, a former community college student, is a graduate fellow at the USC Annenberg Center on Communication Leadership and Policy.

 
Across the country, high school seniors are compiling lists of pros and cons to resolve the first big decision of their lives: Where should I go to college in the fall? Few, if any, of these dilemmas ...
Across the country, high school seniors are compiling lists of pros and cons to resolve the first big decision of their lives: Where should I go to college in the fall? Few, if any, of these dilemmas ...
 
 
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04:41 PM on 04/28/2011
As someone who has worked in a community college for almost 4 years, I can say that there are truths and non-truths in this article. The bigger problem is the caliber of students. Ever since I have arrived, I have maintained the same academic standards that I used when working at large institutions--mostly, students in community college are not ready for them. What needs to happen is that parents and teachers need to expect more out of students while they are still in high school. Otherwise, they think that they can "just go to community college." We don't accept everyone. And some of the ones that are in, I question. I do not appreciate having to defend my teaching style to any student, but that is what happens here, although less frequently now. Students who know the least expect the most. Grade inflation in high schools make students think they are smarter than they are. While I am paid fairly well, and my benefits are great, I am officially "over" making a difference with students at community colleges. Just the other day, a student in her 30s asked me to "say something positive" to her so she would have the confidence to take the final exam.Would that happen at Harvard? I doubt it. Did my refusal probably lower the student's evaluation of me? Probably. I'm done babysitting adults. I hope every college with standards keeps them, if for nothing else the reality check for the subpar.
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drmindhealer
Clinician, Educator, Artist, Healer
06:27 PM on 05/03/2011
I'm not sure I agree with you. I, like you, have taught at larger institutions and am currently at a smaller state college. Would a Harvard Professor have said something positive to that student? Having been there, the answer is yes, some would. Why you couldn't find it inside yourself to say something positive is troubling to me. I don't consider encouragement babysitting - I consider it part of the job description. Do I get frustrated with my students who can't hack it or don't try? Sure. I tell them the first day I am not in the business of teaching rocks to talk. But it is my job to teach the material and support them however I can. If that means I need to be a cheerleader in that moment then you better believe I will do it. In the end - it is on them but I did my best. I take my bumps and criticisms just like everyone else. I have to defend my stats and my style just like everyone else. But I go to the wall for my students and their success reflects on my efforts - it is not wasted, no matter how tired or frustrated I may get by the end of the semester. That you are "officially over making a difference for community college students" is burnout talking. You won't make a difference for anyone as long as that is where you are living from.
09:01 PM on 04/25/2011
Mr. Hrabe argues that getting into top colleges is passé, a trend of the last 50 years that won't persist. He couldn't be more wrong...

He writes that the debt students incur to finance a four-year college education isn’t worth it: “More than half of 16-to-24 year olds were out of work.” What do 16-19-year-olds olds have to do with whether or not you should attend a two or four year college? 16-19-year-olds would still be in college – be it two year CCs or four year top colleges.

He also states that top firms like Goldman Sachs see the future in CCs. CC graduates don’t get interviews at GS. McKinsey won’t hire you if you don’t have a top degree. GS doesn’t show up at Bumbletown CC. The fact that they think it wise to invest in CCs doesn't mean they think CC graduates are viable candidates. “The Pursuit of Happyness” was a movie.

At The Ivy Coach, we consult with students to improve their admissions chances to top universities. Yes, we have a vested interest in prestigious colleges. Mr. Hrabe, we wonder why you chose to attend the London School of Economics as cited on your USC bio. Many rank LSE as one of the most prestigious colleges in the world. Guess you don’t follow your own advice.

Read our full blog: http://www.theivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/college-admissions/getting-into-top-colleges/
04:44 PM on 04/28/2011
But "The Pursuit of Happyness" is based on a true story.
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drmindhealer
Clinician, Educator, Artist, Healer
06:31 PM on 05/03/2011
It is an interesting sidebar however that GS has a sizable stake in for-profit institutions such as Education Management Corp. Education is big business no matter what level which is why education in the US is such a wreck.
06:30 PM on 04/25/2011
Community college is not a bad idea in a climate in which the price of degrees is skyrocketing, while the payoff is becoming less and less clear.

Any decision about higher education should be made very carefully. Student debt can be a crippling burden, and removing yourself from the workforce for the sake of an education involves opportunity costs. It doesn't end with college.

Here are 100 reasons NOT to go to grad school:
http://100rsns.blogspot.com/

Too many people make decisions about higher education without adequate information, which is alarming when you consider how big the higher ed establishment has become.
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AcademicFreedom
Often banned; always factual
05:46 PM on 04/25/2011
If you want to work in the administration of a Dem, you better well have gone to an Ivy League school.
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AcademicFreedom
Often banned; always factual
05:41 PM on 04/25/2011
We need to get rid of waste and inefficiency in higher education. There are billions to be saved. Just as in health care, we need to identify where the dollars are best spent - there are too many Political Science and Art History majors; therefore, the dollars should be shifted to accounting, nursing, medicine, etc.
04:50 PM on 04/28/2011
NO! If someone is proficient at writing, that person does NOT need to be pushed into nursing or accounting. Why should a person suffer simply because someone is too shortsighted to see the value of another's talent? Civilizations are built on well-rounded individuals. I don't want to live in a community, or society--global or local, that does not include the art. Sometimes, all humans have are renderings of the human experience. And, FYI, most colleges do spend their money on science and business programs first. Programs like visual art and creative writing often subsist on grants, and the gracious generosity of private donors. As a person with an MA in English and MFA in creative writing, I know about that firsthand.
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drmindhealer
Clinician, Educator, Artist, Healer
06:37 PM on 05/03/2011
Correct - I have seen more than my fair share of students pushed into programs and did not belong there. They suffer and struggle. College is not just about getting a degree so you can get a job - it is about your life and what you want to mold yourself to be. At age 19 or 20, sure, idealism may be coloring the decision to pursue that Art History degree but the experience and knowledge are worth it. We need well-rounded citizens who can contribute to the world, communicate and create.
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marsjunkiegirl
More left and more interested in facts than you.
04:48 PM on 04/25/2011
I seriously doubt the Ivy League grads are among the 'college graduates struggling to find jobs'. Should more people consider CCs or cheaper state schools instead of mediocre private schools? Yes, because some of these supposedly 'sub-par' institutions do indeed have good professors, a fact this article got right. But the people who can do better shouldn't give up their dreams just because of finances; all of the ivies are now loan-free for those with an income under $90,000, and many top liberal arts colleges have limited loan packages as well. I hope younger students that might read this or have parents who read this are not discouraged into settling for a CC or state school simply because it's now trendy to say that all who set their hopes high are doomed to fail miserably.
12:53 AM on 04/25/2011
I am a grad student at an Ivy league and I attended the #2 public institution in the country as a transfer and a community college to get rid of my GE. I wholeheartedly disagree with some of the ignorant comments that stated that a community college is a lesser education. In fact, i can easily argue that a community college education is superior to that of an ivy league. Ivy league professors, like large research institutions, only care about their research. At a community college, you get teachers who care about teaching.
08:04 AM on 04/24/2011
As a student at an Ivy league school, I think Hrabe completely disregards all of the additional academic opportunities made possible by attending a world class research institution. For example, my particular school has an organization that was specifically created for helping students become involved in research and additionally provides sources of funding and helps direct students towards external funding. As a freshman, I will be assuming a paid research position over the summer. Also, I think that Hrabe's description of the faculty of such schools is very barren. He states that the most brilliant professors may not necessarily be the best teachers. While I agree that it is sometimes the case, I completely disagree that these professors are disengaged with their students and that there is nothing to learn from them. Personally, I find that the faculty at my school are not only brilliant, but incredibly passionate about their chosen field. For this reason, I generally find that professors are thrilled to discuss topics with students both in and outside the classroom. And despite your assumption, I find the majority of professors to be excellent teachers as well.
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JanusDaniels
11:54 PM on 04/23/2011
"Goldman Sachs sees it... is making a $500 million bet on the next big economic opportunity in higher education... the country's community colleges"
So, I expect our entire educational system to collapse.
wsdave
Abusive or Insulting? I won't be responding.
01:18 AM on 04/28/2011
Already happening, and at the state run Community Colleges.
11:35 PM on 04/23/2011
I am a current graduate student at an Ivy League school, as well as a former community college student. I received my undergraduate degree from a major public research university. There are real and consequential differences between these systems.

Yes, community college is cheaper, and for some of us it makes sense financially. However, the quality of education that you will receive at a community college will in most cases be inferior. This doesn't mean that students who go to Ivy League schools are smarter, or even that they are harder workers in all cases. Usually (although not always) they are just wealthier, and they are rewarded socially and educationally for this.Conversely, community college rarely affords an environment in which even the most talented students can thrive. Teachers are often not well paid, they receive very little respect from their students, and they are pushed around by administrators strapped for cash. This results in a generally poor learning environment; many students don't graduate. Believe me, I've experienced first hand the vast differences between community college and the top universities.

I think it is extremely foolish to ignore the educational and social privileges that come with studying at a major university. The gap between community college and the Ivy League is wide and (to a great extent) corresponds to the gap between the rich and the poor in the United States. Rather than pretending that this gap doesn't exist, we should ask ourselves why it does.
01:54 PM on 04/25/2011
You are incorrect in stating "the quality of education that you will receive at a community college will in most cases be inferior.". This is simply less true than you have stated. Community colleges are giving prestigious colleges a run for their money, some even offering baccalaureate degrees. What students aren't told is that credits earned at the community college level are as valuable as those earned at a four-year institution, Ivy League or not. Students drop out for a variety of reasons from both types of institutions, not the least of which is cost. Sixty-five percent never return. As for the social privileges, I am here to tell you that I know the same amount and caliber of persons, if not greater, than my four-year counterparts, and the only cost to myself was working a little smarter and spending less money on the exact same education. I will be moving on to university better prepared, already credentialed, and a few steps higher than my classmates because I attend community college. Community colleges don't afford the environments you mentioned because many people like yourself are misinformed or uninformed of the potential for success, and thus don't invest in their regional districts. We are seen as poor, failures or slackers because we aren't at a university; lost causes, likely to drop out. A large group of us are working to change the public opinion.
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marsjunkiegirl
More left and more interested in facts than you.
05:04 PM on 04/25/2011
Actually, the credits aren't as valuable always....at my college, credits from other institutions have to be a B or better to transfer- so passing credits that would be acceptable at other schools are worthless at mine.
Just because some CCs offer BAs does not mean the departments granting the BAs are equal to those at other schools. Even just considering teaching, and not research, small colleges trounce CCs due to the simple fact that their departments /have/ to pay more attention to their students because there are fewer of them. At my college in particular, each candidate for a faculty position has to present their research at a level undergraduates can understand and guest-teach classes, and reviews submitted by the students of these events are taken very seriously. I wouldn't trade that for anything, not even a relatively inexpensive education. That said, I do know that professors at CCs and less-renowned state schools can be great; I've had two new PhDs teach me that were really good at their jobs. However, it was clear that they were overworked and didn't have time to really make sure their students were 'getting it'.
09:17 PM on 04/25/2011
I completely agree that in most cases people who attend community college are the same "caliber" as people who attend more prestigious universities. I went to community college myself, and hope that I can claim to be "as good" as my Harvard counterpart. This is what I meant when I said the following: "This doesn't mean that students who go to Ivy League schools are smarter, or even that they are harder workers in all cases. Usually (although not always) they are just wealthier." My main problem with Hrabe's argument is that he presents community college as an "alternative" to the Ivy League. Most people who attend community college do not have the choice to attend an Ivy League school. So while it is certainly possible to do great things after community college, I don't want to ignore the social advantages that an Ivy League education offers. To do this would be to apologize for an education system which disproportionately rewards the children of the wealthy.
11:35 PM on 04/23/2011
It's not true to say that "without the pressure to publish, community college professors have more time to invest in their students." Actually, most community college faculty are adjunct and contingent faculty who are badly paid, and have few if any benefits, and very low or no job-insecurity. Most of them are, not surprisingly, working two/three jobs to make ends meet, which does put something of a strain on how much time we have to "invest" in our students, though on balance we do as good as a job as full-time tenure/tenure track faculty who face their own time demands. Some adcons do research too, by the way, and none of us like to be regarded as martyrs to our students with an obsessive and self-sacrificial commitment to "investment" in them that numbs us to our own exploitation. Aside from which, we know that in order to maintain faith with higher education, you have to be able to confront the idea that a high proportion of the most educated portion of the population is having trouble making ends meet. I know something about Harvard, having a doctorate from that fine institution, and something about community colleges, teaching at several: it would be nice to move from a good two-year CC directly into Harvard, and not end up with horrific debt. Ok, a fantasy for most, but don't peddle another fantasy about the rosy advantages of an inequitable system.
07:16 PM on 04/23/2011
As a current Ivy league student, I feel the author misses a very important point. Yes, Ivies are extremely expensive, but they also have huge endowments which enables them to give awesome financial aid. We are not super wealthy, just regular middle class. My parents are putting 3 kids through college at the same time and my school is very empathetic to that. Thanks, to my school's generous financial aid, my parents can actually pay the difference and I can get through undergrad without any debt. Also, as other posters have commented, the career I want involves a lot of networking, so my school offers a huge advantage in that point.
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honky1234
This is a karate dojo, not a knitting class
06:37 PM on 04/23/2011
Most of the students who attend Harvard receive scholarships. Or they come from very affluent families, where the tuition cost is a non-factor.

The advantage you get with a Harvard degree is the network of contacts. A well paying job is waiting for you upon graduation. Not so with community colleges.
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03:37 PM on 04/23/2011
There is much truth to this article. For most, especially of average abillity ( yes, I know, this is a Lake Wobegone nation but, let's face it, by definition most folks are pretty close to average ), a much less expensive academic institution will do the job just fine. There is not THAT much difference in what a Bachelor's degree person learns at an Ivy vs. a local college or university. Note I say college, and not junior college, too many of which are just overgrown high schools and do not afford the same quality education given by a good, reputable college. Here I differ strongly ( from bitter experience with jc graduates ) with Hrabe. The only reason to attend an Ivy or like quality school is if one intends on going into law, certain areas of business, or government where networking and WHO you know is really important. Of course, the other reason is if one is a quite superior student with unique career goals, e.g. post in academe, prestigious law firm or national laboratory. In a nutshell, in terms of amount of learning, Bachelor's degrees do not vary that much from the Ivy to the good local college.
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thinkingwomanmillstone
great, green, globs of greasy grimey GOPerspeak.
05:11 PM on 04/23/2011
Just from personal knowledge, I have to agree with you. The friends of my kids who went the cc route were woefully unprepared for the rigors of an upper level course at a university...even those who attended a cc that had an arranged agreement with the state university to accept their students. They entered as juniors and just could not compete with the students who had been at the school for four years. Of the half dozen that I know, not a one was able to graduate in 4 years. Several dropped out. Several transferred to less acadmenically rigorous four year programs. They themselves described it as 13th and 14 grade and a waste of their time and money. BTW, they were above average high school students who went the cc route to make college more affordable.
12:04 AM on 04/24/2011
You're right--I teach at an R1 institute with a heavy influx of transfer students from smaller, less prestigious colleges, and very few of them are at the same level educationally as those who have been at the university from freshman year. Many of them also report feeling unprepared for rigor by their previous college experience; even if they're smart individually, quality of education is heavily predicated on who else is in the classroom as fellow students.
iflew
Pro Publiae Bonae
03:03 PM on 04/23/2011
New job applicant needs list:

1.College, BS Accounting
2.Graduate school, MBA
3.Trade school. Computer stuff.
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03:39 PM on 04/23/2011
Yup.... that program will certainly make the US an outstanding international competitor.
05:52 PM on 04/23/2011
And then you too can be a mindless, systems manager that does what they're told.