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John R. Talbott

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Do the Rich Pay Their Fair Share of Taxes?

Posted: 09/11/2012 8:31 am

An investing client of mine asked me Sunday morning if I thought it was fair that 50% of Americans paid little to no federal income tax.

Of course, this is a loaded question. Others have pointed out that while some poorer Americans pay little to no federal income tax, they do pay 15.3% FICA taxes which covers their contributions to Social Security and Medicare, a highly regressive tax because only your first $106,000 of income is subject to the tax. In addition, local sales taxes are highly regressive because the poor and middle-class end up having to consume a much larger percentage of their income just to get by.

But the question got me thinking. What do the poor and middle class do with their money? Have they figured out some great way to avoid taxes? If they don't have Swiss bank accounts or tax shelters in the Cayman Islands, how exactly are they avoiding paying federal income taxes? What I found out was terribly disturbing.

I decided to examine household incomes in America by quintile to see, if indeed, the rich were paying too much tax. Following is a breakdown by quintile of the average incomes for American households for the year 2010. I have also included the data for someone with a million dollar income just to see what he or she ends up paying in tax;

2012-09-11-Screenshot20120910at4.41.53PM.png
Source: Census Bureau - Table H-3


Rather than making a traditional calculation on what percent of their total incomes each quintile pays in federal taxes (including FICA taxes), I thought it would be interesting to ask what percent in taxes they each pay after paying for basic necessities like food and shelter. I tried to come up with an estimate of what amount of money one would have to pay each month just to barely get by, to barely keep his or her head above water. Here is my estimate. You can see it is a very low estimate of what it costs to live in the US as it doesn't even include anything for medical expenses or health insurance or the required savings needed to send your kids to college or to retire on.

2012-09-11-Screenshot20120910at4.43.15PM.png


I know this is low and I challenge anyone who disagrees to try living on $2,000 a month for a while and to feed and clothe a family. But, let's call it the bare necessities and see what it means for American families.

If you subtract this $2,000 a month or $24,000 per year from the various quintiles' incomes, the following pre-tax disposable incomes result;

2012-09-11-Screenshot20120911at8.21.04AM.png


And here are the actual average taxes paid by quintile;

2012-09-11-Screenshot20120911at8.22.07AM.png
Source: Tax Policy Center


And so, here are the tax percentages that each quintile actually pays as a percent of their true disposable incomes assuming everyone needs at least $2,000 a month just to get by;

2012-09-11-Screenshot20120910at4.44.29PM.png


This certainly doesn't look fair, much less progressive. A rate cannot even be calculated for the lowest quintile because they are $13,000 negative in the hole before even paying their taxes. Similarly, the second quintile owes more taxes each year than it has available after paying for basic necessities. The third quintile represents the median income earner in the United States and is paying approximately 50% more of their disposable income in taxes than our richest Americans.

This is clearly a terribly regressive system in which the least among us are asked to pay the most from our disposable incomes. When looked at from this perspective there is no question that the wealthy have to pay a greater share of the taxes if we have a chance in balancing the federal budget.

But these numbers are distressing even regardless of tax policy. They suggest that 40% of American families after tax don't even have enough income to cover life's bare necessities. Think of it. 40% of American families can't save a dime for a child's college education, can't afford to save a dollar for their retirement and can't afford to buy health insurance.

What have we done? We have opened trade with countries that pay their workers less than one dollar an hour and get away with it because the cost of living in those countries is so low. But our own workers cannot be forced to compete with such low wages as it costs much more to live here.

I have watched my native Kentucky lose its manufacturing plants overseas and have its union plants busted up solely by the threat to outsource jobs. Manufacturing wages in my parent's home town in Kentucky have declined from $15 an hour plus benefits to $7-$8 an hour with no benefits. You cannot raise a family on seven dollars an hour even if both parents work.

We are killing this country. CEOs, entrepreneurs, bankers, lawyers, doctors and politicians at the top of the pyramid are all benefiting from the lower cost of labor for their employees and the lower cost of goods imported from low-wage countries. But our workers, our dear workers are getting crushed. This is not the America I grew up in. And this shall not stand.

John R. Talbott is a bestselling author and financial consultant to families whose books predicted the housing crash, the banking crisis and the global economic collapse. You can read more about his books, the accuracy of his predictions and his financial consulting activities at www.stopthelying.com

 
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An investing client of mine asked me Sunday morning if I thought it was fair that 50% of Americans paid little to no federal income tax. Of course, this is a loaded question. Others have pointed out ...
An investing client of mine asked me Sunday morning if I thought it was fair that 50% of Americans paid little to no federal income tax. Of course, this is a loaded question. Others have pointed out ...
 
 
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04:42 AM on 10/28/2012
(Cont.)Your schooling cost are also low. You haven't taken into consideration lunches, after-school care (for young children, when both parents must work), any type of fees charged; such as field trips, classroom supplies (many schools require parents to contribute to these "fees"), school uniforms (if required), and any extra curricula activities.
I can't even address how low your figure for automobile expense is. Fuel alone would exceed that considering the average American drives 16 miles/day just TO work. That's 32 miles round trip just to get to and from work each day. That does not include trips to the grocer, medical appointments, picking children up at school/day care, running errands.

Each of the other items are grossly under estimated, as well. The reality of your "line item budget" has that family of four in about $600-$1000 deficit each and every month. You did not even consider a couple other necessities, as well, such as health insurance and deductible/co-pays. A family with children absolutely cannot be without health care coverage. We won't even figure that into the realistic "deficit" your budget has them in.

Before hitting the "send" button on this one, you really should have done your homework, not just acknowledged that your figures were very low...they weren't very low...they were absolutely unrealistic.
04:41 AM on 10/28/2012
It says in your Bio that you are a financial consultant to families. I would venture to guess, Mr, Talbott, that you are a financial consultant to wealthy families, not the average American family. I know you said your estimates were very low, but they are unrealistically low. An American family of four could not find any apartment (as they would need at least a 2 bedroom (and if the children are of the opposite sex, many states would require the children have separate bedrooms, in which case they would need a 3-bedroom apartment) for $480/month. Most 1 bedroom apartments start out at more than $500/month, with the low average rent for a 2-bedroom starting at $750 in most areas in America. That is not for a luxury apartment. That is for a basic no frills apartment.

The figure you used for utilities is equally unrealistically low. In areas where both heat and air conditioning are necessary, the minimum bill during off seasons of both heat and air, would be about the figure you used. However, when the heat or a/c must come on, you are looking at more than $200/month upward to $300 for combined electric/gas or oil/water and telephone (a neccessity for families with children).

I will have to post twice to continue...
08:53 PM on 10/24/2012
I made a mistake, a typo in it 10.70% was supposed to have been 12.70% for the percent of all Income tax collected from the bottom 75% of incomes which were reported on the IRS's tax returns.
08:45 PM on 10/24/2012
Sorry about typo where 10.70% should have been 12.70% of all Income tax collected for bottom 75% of incomes reported on IRS tax returns.
06:50 PM on 10/24/2012
Group tax paid (thousands of $): Top 1% - $318,043, Top 10% - $610,156, Top 25% - $755,903, Top 50% - $846,352, Under Top 25% down to Bottom of Top 50% - $90,449, Bottom 50% - $19,511.
Number of tax returns: Top 1% - 1,379,822, Top 10% - 13,789,220, Top 25% - 34,495,551, Top 50% - 68,991,102, Under Top 25% down to Bottom of Top 50% - 34,595,551, Bottom 50% - 68,991,102..
Of the Grand Total Income Tax collected what % of this Grand Total did these groups pay : Top 1% - 36.73%, Top 10% - 70.47%, Top 25% - 87.30%, Top 50% - 97.75%, Under Top 25% down to Bottom of Top 50% - 10.45%, Bottom 50% - 2.25%. Thus bottom 75% of Taxpayers (incomes under $67,280 a year) paid only 10.70% of the Grand Total Income Tax collected. .
President Obama’s claim middle class incomes are paying an unfair share & have an unfair burden because Rich are not paying their fair share is clearly a bold faced mathematical falsehood. Paying 10.70% compared to the Rich paying 89.30% of Grand Total is not at all unfair, or evidence of a burden. Even the claimed unfair tax avoider Mitt Romney is the top 26% of rates paid & thus pays over 87.3% of the Grand Total collected.
Hope a taste of actual facts aids your understanding of the Real World.
06:49 PM on 10/24/2012
The Bottom 50% of Income taxpayers have AGI / tax returns filed = $15,295 avg. income of group member $1,055,215,000,000AGI / 68,991,102returns & income must be $33,048 or higher to be in Top 50%. People can and I do and have lived comfortably on $19,700 a year since 1998. It is obvious you've never have & have no idea how to live on less than $24,000. Probably more than half of Bottom 50% knows how & does so live. You argue Rich don't pay fair share.
Look at actual income Tax Facts for 2009 (most recent publicly available from IRS) income reported & Tax paid, Top 1% 16 times more paid, Top 10% 15 times more paid, Top 25% 7.47 times more paid, Top 50% 4.64 times more paid, finally Under Top 25% down to Bottom of Top 50% 4.63 times more paid, all paid more than what Bottom 50% paid by many multiples. No factual IRS evidence the Rich half aren’t paying a Fair Share of their income compared to Bottom 50% (incomes $33,047 or lower) who paid 2.25% of their income. Group tax rates paid (Tax / AGI): Top 1% - 24.0%, Top 10% - 18.0%, Top25% - 14.68%, Top 50% - 12.50%, finally Under Top 25% down to Bottom of Top 50% - 5.58% , Bottom 50% - 1.849%.
Group AGI Income (millions of dollars): Top 1% - $1,324,572, Top 10% - $3,379,731, Top 25% - $5,149,871, Top 50% - $6,770,174, Under Top 25% down to Bottom
05:51 PM on 09/13/2012
That is the most rediculous excuse for an analysis I have ever seen. Deduct a huge portion of what an average person makes from their income, take their taxes as a percentage of that, and therefore claim that they are paying too high a percentage. Nonsense! Plus social security and medicare taxes are a specific benefit plan, not a regular income tax. Your payment stops at a certain income level because your benefits stop also.
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inoilfieldhell
Working myself to death.
11:49 AM on 09/13/2012
If the job creators wants bigger tax breaks, they need to do their job in creating high paying jobs. Many high paying jobs can carry tax burdens better than a few rich people.
But really folks, it is not about money. It is a group of people who only have self-value if they can look down on others. It is about staking yourself in positions of financial superiority to be able to feel good about themselves. The more they can cheat and stomp on those below them, the better they feel about themselves. They need psychological help. You don't have to be an economic tyrant to achieve self-satisfaction.
07:17 PM on 10/23/2012
Your take on the situation sounds very personal and very bitter. Why do you think because people have great ambition and do very well, they must love to look 'down' on others? I see Obama's class warfare ideology has worked on you. You are grossly over generalizing and personalizing the topic, in my opinion. Aaaaall of the econimic woes and perceived unfairness in America isnt about money...its about peoples self esteem??? Wow.
I have had a company for 15 years and have done well. Survived the auto crisis just barely and now working towards hiring again. I treat everyone equally as money is just money, it does not make a persons character. Those qualities you talk about or no where near exclusive to people have have done well financially. I hear people of ALL economic status ripping into their fellow man, and it is sad that people are so unhappy and need to blame someone else for their own perceived shortcomings and/or misery.
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08:12 AM on 09/13/2012
Simply wrong, do a tax return yourself, run the numbers. A single person making $11K a year pays a total of about $800 in taxes AFTER and INCLUDING, SS and Med. A family of four in the second quintil, two parents two children, has a total federal tax bill of -$2,000, not $5,000.

Its pretty straightforward. You take an income, figure out how much SS/Med they paid (7.65%) and set that number aside ($28,636 x 7.65% is $2190.65). Then take that income and take off standard deduction and exemptions, multiply by 10% ($28,636 - $11,900 - 4x$3700 = $1936, multiply by 10% and you get an income tax liability of $193.60). Add in child tax credit (2 x $1000 = $2000) and earned income tax credit ($2,476.94), and you get $4,283.34. Thats what this persons tax return would PAY them withhout having withhled a single penny from their paychecks.

But, they did pay $2190.65 in SS/Med taxes, so if you do THAT math they STILL didn't pay money to the Federal Government and walked away with a check for almost $2,100 ($4,283.34 - $2,283.34 = $2,092.69). That is paid to them and is their entire tax "bill", not the $5,384 tax BILL that you have in the article. Now potentially there actually is a tax they paid that I missed. If so, please explain what tax it is that accounts for this $7,000+ delta between your calculations and mine.
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09:53 AM on 09/13/2012
I suppose the earned income credit and child deductions are the loopholes R/R would eliminate. To make those poor people put some skin in the game.
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07:15 AM on 09/14/2012
If you want, keep the tax credits but do not make them refundable. Right now its nothing more than welfare hidden in the tax code. Maybe they should get a tax credit for merely working, they should not get money back, as in more than they contributed, just because they worked.
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iLdoRight
Encouraging The Rightest Rightness
10:39 PM on 09/12/2012
If you think you must have fair, you should find another planet to live on. The fairs hear will cheat you.
07:02 PM on 10/24/2012
You gave me & my funny a real good laugh! THANKS
09:09 PM on 09/12/2012
Are the PACs taxed? Imagine all the extra income the government would have.
07:06 PM on 10/24/2012
Every dollar they have was taxed when it was earned & had to be reported as AGI. Wake up to tax reality. I'm retired US Treasury I know.
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hangdogit
Progressive with some Libertarian (abolish DEA).
05:52 PM on 09/12/2012
I need someone to tell me why someone (e.g. Romney) pays 15% on investments (which may or may not be based on inherited money, but *no* actual labor) while the carpenter swinging a hammer in the hot sun or icy snow pays a higher rate than that.

Not the "capital formation" BS (plenty of unused capital laying around) -- the *moral justification* of it.
06:00 PM on 09/13/2012
Romney, like all holders of corporate stock in America, pays a 15% max federal tax on his corporate dividends and long term capital gains (regular interest, other business income, wages, and other income he pays 35%). Why the low rate? Because the corporations he has invested in, which pay him the dividends, already paid 35% in taxes on the SAME INCOME at the corporate level. First the income is taxed to the corporation at 35%, then when they give what's left to the owners of the company, it's taxed again at 15%. That income is seriously double taxed and we're not even considering the state income taxes which are also double (in Wisconsin that would be another 16%). Funny how the 'class envy' promoters in the media always forget that little part. Do you think they don't know, or just choose not to say?
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hangdogit
Progressive with some Libertarian (abolish DEA).
12:28 AM on 09/14/2012
Thank you for the answer -- that is a good explanation from an overall taxation and capital formation viewpoint. But that is the argument that I asked not to be given -- I've heard it often.

I still want to know the moral justification why and individual taxpayer like Romney pays 15% for zero labor while others pay much more for hard physical labor -- that's all.

What makes it *right* in a country that constantly preaches the value of hard work -- and shows a level of intolerance for those on welfare who refuse to perform such (or any) work?

And as a corollary, is Romney not, in effect, on welfare at that low rate -- subsidized by people who actually work -- the people who he shows in ads as being exploited by lazy welfare slackers?
07:38 PM on 10/24/2012
I'm retired US Treasure & in bottom 50% of incomes. You need a lesson in the facts. You're confusing it with the final dollar earned's marginal tax rate & not considering actual Total Tax paid / AGI adjusted gross income reported. Romney's 15or14% was calculated this way, to compare you must do the same calculation. Here is eye opener from 2009 Tax Returns that puts Romney's rate paid higher than 75% of all taxpayers: Group tax rates paid (Tax / AGI): Top 1% of Incomes group - 24.0%, Top 10% of Incomes group - 18.0%, Top 25% of Incomes group - 14.68%, Top 50% of Incomes group - 12.50%, Under Top 25% down to Bottom of Top 50% of Incomes group - 5.58% , Bottom 50% of Incomes group - 1.849%.
Of the Grand Total Income Tax collected what % of this Grand Total did these groups pay :
Top 1% income group - 36.73%, Top 10% - 70.47%, Top 25% - 87.30%, Top 50% - 97.75%, Under Top 25% down to Bottom of Top 50% - 10.45%, Bottom 50% - 2.25%. Thus bottom 75% of Taxpayers (incomes under $67,280 a year) paid only 10.70% of the Grand Total Income Tax collected. I would never have believed this until as retired Treasury Dept. financial examiner I analized & did actual calculations.
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Y Woodman Brown
live & let live
02:11 PM on 09/12/2012
There is an equitable solution. Consider an employee-to-employer tax obligation paradigm shift. It would both eradicate this class-struggle debate and build a more positive relationship between the people and their governments.

No individual pays any income tax.

Eliminate the concept of 'gross' and 'net' pay. Salaries, hourlies and bonuses become singular amounts. This would give us a much needed wage hike.

Responsibility of revenue to the Federal Government become a duty of enterprise--solely an employer responsibility. Based on employee income, employers would pay a percentage. Per employee, per paycheck, three employer payments: 1) the employee's pay, 2) government revenue, 3) employee health insurance.

The government then receives revenue on that 50% currently paying nothing. Yet their current take-home would increase. The percentage would be small--say 10%--yet amount to a large boost in Federal revenue.

Percentages would rise as amounts in employee pay rise. It would max at 33%-50% on all forms of income paid to top earners. Yet individual pay would not be infringed, thereby strengthening incentive to perform.

City, State and FICA would be paid, in an adequate scheme, by the Federal government. Adjusting earning per dependent is tossed-out. Business expense deductions shift to the employer.

April 15, tax filings are eliminated.

Current actual numbers--gross, tax, net and revenue across level and in total--need analyses. This would yield percentages that increase individual pay. It would also ensure little, if any, additional quarterly burden on employers.
11:49 AM on 09/12/2012
"But our workers, our dear workers are getting crushed."

That's the plan, Stan.
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Bradlinsky
Concept Other Than Self
11:28 AM on 09/12/2012
I don't know what state these figures come from, but they are AMAZINGLY low. $400 for food for a family of four? Sure, Raman noodles maybe. $140 in utilities? Maybe JUST that in electricity unless you live somewhere that is 80 degrees year-round. And I don't see car insurance in there, or renters/home owners insurance. Even in the best scenario, I think the 'bare minium' for most is $3,000 per month. And that's really, really low.
08:19 PM on 10/24/2012
$3,000 x 12 or $36,000 You have no knowledge of incomes reported to IRS in the real world. Read & be introduced to incomes half the country (Bottom 50%) lives on. 2009s IRS report: Income under $33,048 reported on half the returns or 68,991,102 returns. Income on these returns $1,055,215,000,000. Average income on these returns $15,295 = $1,055,215,000,000 / 68,991,102. Actual income tax rate paid on the $1,055,215,000,000 is just 1.849% or $19,511,000,000. And this is only 2.25% of all the income taxes collected. The rich Top 50% who Obama claims falsely are not paying their share pay 97.75% of the income tax. If you look at incomes of $67,280 or over they pay 87.3%. If you look at incomes of $113,799 or over they pay 70.47% of all the income tax collected.
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD politicians lie about and hide from Voters.