Joe the Plumber Meets Sam the Gas Station Guy

A few days ago (which is to say, prior to the Wednesday night presidential debate), I met Sam. Joe the Plumber should really meet Sam, too.

I was jogging away on the treadmill at my local gym when the guy next to me--who turned out to be Sam--introduced himself. He seemed to want to talk, which was fine by me. He asked what I did. I told him. He immediately replied, "Oh, I've never met a professor before. I never went to college. Seriously, in my entire life I've never read a book all the way through. Please, Professor, don't make fun of me."

Of course I wouldn't. Besides, I found Sam's humility, curiosity, and affability endearing. As Sam talked, I became only more enthralled in what he had to say. He told me his life story. He grew up in Yonkers, New York and came out to California in his early twenties. At 22 he found himself working as an entry-level cashier at a gas station. Eventually he cobbled together loans and a payment schedule and bought the station.

Cut to the future: Now 38 years old, Sam owns more than 100 gas stations in southern California and 25 restaurant franchises. He has over 800 employees working for him. He has four kids in a happy marriage. He's a devout churchgoer. He's a proud American and lets you know that.

We started talking politics. "You know what," he said, "I'd really like some reporter to come and ask me my views on the election. Why don't they ever seek out guys like me? I got something to tell them. Professor, why isn't the LA Times or somebody asking me for my opinion?"

I probed a bit. "So what is it you want to say to them?"

Sam opened the verbal floodgates. "Hey, I've always voted Republican. For the first time in my life I'm going to vote for a Democrat. I'm voting for Obama."

"Why's that?"

"My gas station businesses are hurting. I make the same profit margin--5 to 8 cents per gallon--no matter whether the price of gas is $1.99 per gallon or $4.99. The big oil companies are the ones raking in the profits when prices go up, not me. I can make money on gas only through volume sales--and if people are hurting, I make less on gas. Or I start to lose money, like now. Where I make money, though, is when they come inside and buy discretionary items--food, drinks, lottery tickets. Right now, people aren't buying. I know 20 of my gas station colleagues are about to declare bankruptcy. It's bad."

"So I'm fed up with the Republicans. Tax cuts for the rich, the war--all that stuff. The middle class needs help. I'm finally convinced. I'm going for Obama. First time in my life, I tell you."

I asked him about paying higher taxes.

"I don't care about that. If I'm making money, I don't care. I'll pay my taxes. But I'm not going to make any money if the middle-class guy doesn't have money in his pocket to buy my gas or my food. I don't need the big tax cut right now. That's not going to bring the customers into my gas stations."

Joe versus Sam. You could line up economists spouting elegant theories for each side, but the basic arguments can probably be reduced to Joe's and Sam's respective positions on very gut levels. Joe's never made $250,000, but he feels that if he ever reaches that threshold, he shouldn't be "penalized" for his success. He seems to believe that cutting taxes for wealthy individuals somehow serves his current financial interests and his aspirations for the future. Sam's already lived those trickle-down and dream-up Republican talking points but now rejects them with hard-won conviction.

Were the two of them to meet and strike up a conversation, side by side on adjacent treadmills, I dare say that Sam would be giving Joe an earful, not the other way around.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Public Service Plug: It may be getting a little close to the wire in some places, but if you want information about requesting an absentee ballot in your area, check out the resources at Long Distance Voter.

Entertainment Plug: Yours truly appears as a talking head commentator in the documentary This American Gothic by filmmaker Sasha Waters Freyer. It will be screened at Echo Park Film Center tomorrow night (Oct. 17) in Los Angeles, at the We, The People Film Festival, starting at 7pm. If you're in the area, I hope to see you there!

Comments

[WeAreTheBorg]

If I'm making money, I don't care. I'll pay my taxes. But I'm not going to make any money if the middle-class guy doesn't have money in his pocket to buy my gas or my food. I don't need the big tax cut right now. That's not going to bring the customers into my gas stations."

Sam has it exactly right. This is the heart and soul of true capitalism. If we all do better, we ALL do better!

We are the Borg.
Resistance is Futile, Republicans.
We will vote for Obama.

[atciii]

Joe the Fake Plumber is a typical greedy republican. If his scenario were even true, and bought a business making more than $250,000 PROFIT, he would pay an extra 3% in taxes, about $3000 to $7000 if it made up to $500,000 in PROFITS. If you make that much profit, you should not be worried about $7000!!! GREED!!!!
This fool only makes about $40,000 a year, i am sure he can manage with $500,000 in PROFIT, that is after expenses and salaries!!!!

[nagor76]

Typical, attack the messenger. Why not just admit that you like your candidate's stand for class warfare and redistribution of wealth.

[atciii]

the reality is what you call "redistribution of wealth" is actually what the trickle down theory is suppose to do. The more money the wealthy make, the more they will give in various ways to the lesser. Except it NEVER happened, the more you gave them, the more they kept and cut salaries and jobs for the lesser. Obamas plan just makes the trickle down theory LAW so they cant hoard the money, they have to share the wealth.

[diamondgirl9]

Its funny but as long as corporate greed that suppresses wages,and ship jobs overseas,and import foreigners to work for less than American workers that fine with you, That's not redistributing wealth from the average worker to the wealthy.Bu­t,dog gone it if someone wants to implement policies to help the American worker that socialism,that's redistributing the wealth. Only a Rethug could consider that argument logical.

[antimilano]

nagor76

There is no messenger that is different from the message.

Why would there be class warfare ? I haven't heard anyone who would be affected making any complaints.

[tbrnotb]

You're confusing class "warfare" with class equality..­..you know like in the Bill of Rights.
An extra 3 to 5% tax on thoise making over 250K should be their patriotic duty and they should feel honored to make the contribution.

We need deep changes in our society and our country. The time is right to make America what it should be....not a haven for the rich and elite but a home for hard working, family oriented citizens.

[BKLA]

The real battle will rage, once people who always thought they were middle class - lose a job, can't get work and start to figure out that they have been sold a bill of goods - Tat they would one day coast down easy street. I have seen many friends who " had it all " in the late 1990s suddenly almost lose it all. They had more tan a million on paper - but that paper is now worthless and the bank is calling for their house. It is a hard way to learn humility.

[Grit]

Actually for the most part the people like Sam that really run a business that has a product or service have about the same attitude as he does. I remember when Bush gave out the big tax cut for the mega wealthy and the large corporations. The CEO of Ford motor said the company didn't need a tax break it needed customers, people who can afford to buy a car. Its the people who make money off of money (usury) that want the big tax breaks. BTW when BIden said paying taxes was patriotic he was right. People who don't want to pay any taxes are basically saying they don't want to contribute to all the things government does. Or even support the troops. These are the people that truly want a free ride. When this country first started collecting taxes, wages weren't taxed because it wasn't considered income. Only profits were taxed as income. Now the Republicans have managed to turn it around to where wages are the major source of taxes and profits are a very small amount of tax revenue.

[Timekeeper10]

Who says they don't want to pay any taxes? If the CEO of Ford was sincere, when his taxes went down the cost of producing the car went down, he could have lowered the damn price to make them more affordable. Then he might have had customers.

[OhioFeminist]

Interesting new information on Joe the Plumber from today's Dayton (Ohio) Daily News: His name is misspelled on the voter registration roles, so he may be one of up to 200,000 voters challenged at the polls, thanks to the GOP's successful election fraud lawsuit against our Democratic attorney general; and Joe may actually be the beneficiary of a state-funded program of the kind the GOP loves to hate: "He is a plumbing apprentice in a work force development program the state oversees."

[krd 123]

Being logical and having common sense goes a long way. Joe the Plummer was a plant. Expect more "Joe's" to come out of the woodwork these last 2.5 weeks. When the Repubs are desperate, they will stoop at NOTHING.

I honestly expect an Osama Bin Laden "look-a-like" to be ushered out of a movie sound stage cave from John McCain wearing his uniform on November 3rd! That's how desperate they are.

STAY FOCUSED! Obama/Biden 08

[bennybeaver]

Here is a thought Joe could be a communist plant, here to destroy our society, or maybe he is a part of the Illuminati, or the skull & bones. Be afraid be very afraid. :o)
It was the answer to the question, not who asked it.

[atciii]

Joe the Fake Plumber doesnt have the intellect to be any of those things. He thinks not having a contractor licence, making about $40,000 will buy him a business worth $140,000 that is not even for sale, but he thinks is worth more than $250,000. This man is an idiot

[bennybeaver]

It was scarcasm,
My brother is a plummer so I take offense to that comment.
His son is now attending the IMD Business School in Geneva Switzerland.
His other son is a Navy Seal Serving in Afganistand

[flhu]

McCain has said US has one of the highest corporate taxes in the world, citing, I believe 35% here compared to Ireland, which is 11%. He doesn't mention that Ireland is not waging 2 military wars, an over-spent war on drugs, and doesn't have millions of miles of highways, water, sewage and other infrastructure. It's like he is comparing the maintenance cost of an SUV to a 3-speed bicycle.

McCain (19)08

[CindyKay]

Please let's not forget about all the Creative Loopholes they Use so that they Pay Much Less than the 35% You stated. We all know that this is true yet because there is a number Listed on the Tax Books People believe that it is actually 35%

[MikeGuy]

What McCain also fails to point out is that the tax is on net profits - after paying expenses, shareholders, and corporate executives. Result: very few actually pay taxes, the taxes they pay are disproportionate to the benefactors, and citizens as a whole pay the bulk of all tax revenue in the US.

The tax rate argument is a ruse.

[atciii]

exactly!!! no one points that out, the $250,000 is taxable profit!!! if you are a plumber with employees and the company is clearing $250,000 after expenses and salaries, you are doing EXTREMELY well and can pay an extra $7500 in taxes!

[DarthNihlus]

I don't see American companies setting up shop in Ireland due to the preferred tax rates.

[bennybeaver]

Yes they will, when we drove into Prague last year I was stunned by all the brand new office buildings for American companies.
Including HP, 3M

[nagor76]

You obviously haven't been to Ireland lately. Many high tech companies have been set up there for a while now. Dontcha know.

[MrWampler]

You're not looking very hard.

[Proletarian101]

First of all, if he actually owns 80 frachises and 100 gas stations and he is an average owner, he is making, at a minimum, roughly $5 million. So your average "person" conversation is shot right there.

Secondly, it doesn't matter who asked the question or for what reason, it was the answer in the Joe vs. Obama conversation that matters. In any "normal" election cycle, if a candidate were to reference spreading the wealth, democrat or republican, that would have been a political death knell.

[BLinCincinnati]

The Repubs love to rail against "spreading the wealth" and "wealth redistribution", but isn't that what "trickle down economics" is supposed to be? Give to the rich and it will filter down?

It's just all talk. They are really interested, and accomplishing, wealth accumulation in the hands of the 1% that control the GOP.

[MikeGuy]

Evidence: inflation-adjusted income levels for average wage earners is lower now than in 2000, but are considerably higher for the top 2 percent of earners.

[MikeGuy]

What defines a small business is actually pretty high in terms of revenue ($5 million) or employees (500 or less), depending upon industry. What's remarkable is that the owner (Sam) might still be among the benefactors of Obama's tax plan if he earns (i.e., profits) less than $250K per year, as do 98 percent of small businesses.

"Spread the wealth" makes sense even to working professional economists, such as me.

[obamanation31]

Sam is right. If people are not to spend money, Joe won't be getting a lot of calls, amd therfore won't be making $250,000 or if the bamks won't loan him the money, he can't buy that business he wants to buy.

[BrighterStar]

How is raising taxes going to lead to more people spending money?

[houseofglass]

Taxes raised on the top 5% is just the off-set. What's going to lead more people to spending money is the tax CUT for the other 95%.

[JuergenHartl]

You still don't get it!
Obama will NOT raise taxes on average American! Only on people earning more than a quarter million!

[vipersdad]

The plan is to provide more disposable cash to the Middle class by CUTTING their taxes, which is offset by undoing the Bush Tax cuts that targeted the top 1 - 2% of wage earners.

Since the plan seemed to be that Bush hoped that the well-to-do would stimulate the economy by trickling the wealth down, and that has not worked (twice - once under Reagan and now this past 8 years), it's probably time to try something that DID work before.

Hope this answers your question.

[hlk46]

My husband is an hourly worker in a mid-size company. He's been there nearly 20 years and has been a valuable, contributing employee throughout (though he was gone for a year+ when he was deployed to Iraq--by the way, the company tried to stiff him on benefits when he returned). If anyone in the company sees a raise, it's usually about 25 - 50 cents an hour. There are many full-time employees in the company who have to rely on other assistance to make ends meet. They can't afford the company's health insurance (it's a premium of about $400 a month with a $4,000 deductible). The company is not hurting, business has not been bad. The company executives drive company-leased Escalades, Cadillacs, and Hummers. The company president typically brings in his toys--Harleys, snow mobiles, etc--for one reason or other (have an employee wash them, storage, something silly). This is one case where the trickle-down is getting dammed up near the top. Sure he and other employees could leave, but in this market, there aren't many options.

[JScott]

Wal Mart?

[Just John]

by now everybody knows that "Joe" isn't a plumber, he makes about 40K per year, he is not buying a business, and owes back taxes, and was tipped off to the whereabouts of Obama and went to heckle him.

he's getting the news while real folks are getting the shaft.

[BeyondPopper]

For the last eight years, I have been predicting this scenario.

Sam has hit the nail on the head. While the corporations have been cutting salaries, busting unions, and shipping jobs overseas, this has served to improve their quarterly reports and inflate executive salaries. But it had to come to this; at some point, they've fired everyone, and no one can afford to buy their substandard, dangerous, overpriced goods.

Why can't more people get that?

The conventional wisdom is that Republicans know how to run businesses, so they know how to run the economy. The conventional wisdom is that the free enterprise system is the only engine of prosperity.

And the result is that when Republicans have been in charge -- Hoover, Nixon, Reagan, and now Bush -- the result, every time, has been economic meltdown. The Republican goal is to destroy every vestige of the New Deal -- Social Security, regulations, public investments in infrastructure, the whole lot. The fact that when these programs were having their strongest effect on the economy, the 50's and eary 60's, we experienced unprecedented growth and prosperity does not register. All they care about is quarterly profits and lining their own wallets.

When is conventional wisdom going to catch up to common sense and simple reason? When are the American people going to recognize that CW is BS?

[booker52]

Gee Sam you listen while Joe didn't!!! Good for you!!!

[DemoMom]

McCain's latest ploy is to focus on Obama's comments (to Joe the Plumber) that he wants to spread the wealth around - what's wrong with that? Isn't that what Jesus told his followers to do? Another sign of confusion on the part of the GOP campaign..­..........­...I think Joe the Plumber will come back to bite McCain in the butt (metaphorically speaking) because the guy a) isn't a licensed plumber and b) owes back taxes. Nice one, McCain!

[bennybeaver]

You can not have my money, I worked to hard and to long for it!
If that is the case I will look for a job that pays less.

[camanokat]

Boy, that makes a lot of sense!

[bennybeaver]

I already support an unwed mothers home and a domestic violence shelter, I want to choose who gets my money!

[deeppeace]

An intentional misrepresentation, again, by McC. Joe would benefit, not lose, if the 'wealth' were redistributed.

"In the 2008 tax year, households in the bottom 20 percent will receive $26 due to the
Bush tax cuts. Households in the middle 20 percent will receive $784. Households in the
top 1 percent will receive $50,495. And households in the top 0.1 percent will receive
$266,151." (Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center, Table T06-0281)

"Between 1979 and 2006, the top five percent of American families saw their real incomes
increase 87 percent. Over the same period, the lowest-income fifth saw zero increase in
real income." (Census Bureau)

I am sooooo sick of the divisive darkness coming from the right.

[vipersdad]

All taxation is inherently unfair to someone. It's the big trade-off - government services vs. personal cash flow.

Tax policy is, by definition, wealth redistribution. Any organized group that calls itself a government and exists for the well-being of it's citizens needs revenue to operate and taxes are one of the best ways of generating that revenue.

So if we can agree that taxes are a necessary evil then we have to decide what tax policies meet our needs at any given point in time. It's almost impossible to argue against the notion that excessive taxation has a chilling effect on economic growth, but the act of lowering the tax burden to the top 1 - 2% of Americans only served to hasten the process of shipping jobs overseas.

While "globalization" is inexorably here, there needs to be tax policy that allows it to happen gradually and without cratering any one regional economy. Individuals and Businesses do have a responsibility to the people of nations who allow them to operate within their borders. The idea that a business should be allowed to take a tax incentive from one country and then move to another geo with no consequence needs to be reexamined.

The whole topic of tax policy has been hijacked by people who have turned it in to a series of bumper stickers and talking points.

We need to escalate this dialog to get past the talking points.

And "Joe" the plumber needs a better tax guy.

[jeffrey678]

I met People like "joe the plumber". They listen to talk radio. They have been brainwashed to vote against their own economic interest.

[Wiserone]

Yeah, but John don't know "jack"....­....