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John Thompson

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KIPP and Its Critics Are Both Right

Posted: 04/17/11 09:18 AM ET

I was a social scientist before I became a teacher so I was excited to read that Mathematica had analyzed "late arrivals" who attended KIPP. That seemed to be an inspired methodology for determining whether KIPP "creams" by excluding the most difficult-to-educate kids. I thought that KIPP did not admit students after the year began, but if they had a big enough sample to compare the characteristics of KIPP students who arrive in October, for instance, with students who first enter neighboring schools at that time, we would have real evidence!

Reading the study and its definitions, I learned that Mathematica attempted no such thing. Sure enough, KIPP does not admit students in the middle of the year.

As with their previous research, Mathematica was impeccable in fulfilling the purpose of their study. Their methodology showed that 22 KIPP schools have demonstrated remarkable fidelity in implementing their model, while reducing "creaming" as much as is possible for a system where poor families must apply, and volunteer to meet much higher standards. The highly-respected Princeton think tank showed that the numbers of KIPP's new students entering at the beginning of their sixth through eighth grade years, as well as the numbers leaving before graduating from middle school, are comparable to schools that are located near their sample of KIPP schools.

Mathematica showed that KIPP has great success with improving the performance of children who are just as poor, and who have not experienced greater academic success, than students in neighboring schools. But we must remember that the type of middle schools in neighborhoods served by KIPP are among the most dysfunctional institutions in America. Saying that KIPP's attrition rate is a little better than some of the nation's worst middle schools' rate is not a ringing proclamation of success.

Mathematica simply confirms that KIPP succeeds greatly with the kids where it succeeds, while indicating that its failure rate with their more difficult-to-educate students seems comparable to the failure rate of the toughest neighborhood schools. Its research tells us nothing about whether the KIPP system of 99 schools could be scaled up.

To do that, we need studies that act like "race track monitors" to make sure that no interest groups get "an unfair advantage" in promoting their preferred agendas. One such study, by Gary Miron of Western Michigan, found a 40 percent attrition rate for black males in his larger sample of KIPP schools. And to my knowledge, it has never been claimed that KIPP has been more successful with IEP students diagnosed with conduct disorders or serious emotional disturbances.

It is hard to see how any quantitative study could assess the issue of KIPP's attrition rate. Economics and race, as I would hope any educator would understand, are not the key factors for educational success, and elementary test scores might not mean much more as children enter their tumultuous teenage years. Even some of my gangbangers in the lowest-performing school in the state still read at college levels, even though their circumstances, and behavior, had changed dramatically since entering middle school. I suspect that a qualitative study would confirm Jay Mathews' observation that many KIPP students leave for less challenging schools "in spite of pleas to stay from KIPP teachers." I suspect that KIPP teachers issue their pleas with the same sincerity that we in neighborhood schools do, as we try to save our kids from the streets.

I notice that Oklahoma City's KIPP was one of the 22 schools studied, but its attrition data was excluded due to the way the numbers were kept. Our KIPP does a great job, but you simply can not compare a charter which had a decade to build up to serving 285 students, with 8.5 percent being on special education IEPs, with its neighboring school. KIPP replaced Moon Middle School which had served 792 students, with 26 percent on IEPs. Last year, KIPP recommended 21 percent of students for retention, while the old Moon had recommended 3 precent of students for retention. The old Moon was cited in Harpers Index for a lunch room riot. KIPP's neighboring school had a one year middle school dropout rate of 11.5 percent. At Moon, latecomers sometimes arrived in a deputy's car, in handcuffs, as they reentered a school with no transition services. One of their forms of attrition was 30 expulsions; the old school had 808 total suspensions.

As I have explained, Arne Duncan came to Oklahoma City and gave our KIPP the praise it deserved, but he was factually incorrect in claiming that the charter served the "same kids in the same building." Ironically, I had been bloodied that day breaking up a vicious assault which badly injured a student. The assailant had previously sent a teacher to the hospital. I had former KIPP students in my honors class, and they said that KIPP would never have tolerated the routine physical assaults that our neighborhood school allowed to be committed on students and teachers.

I have never doubted the abilities of kids at Moon or KIPP to succeed in a system that celebrated their full humanity. Many students who attended the old Moon used to ride on my back as I swam the width of the pool until I was too exhausted to climb out of the water without a ladder. When I visited the crack houses where some lived, I negotiated with their guard dogs. Several students visited my house, crying, after witnessing a murder. I learned about the demons that haunted their toughest gang-banger when I held him all night as he endured a migraine headache. He repaid me a decade later, intervening as I confronted his homeboys, presumably armed, as carloads of gang-bangers descended on our school's parking lot.

I will never begrudge KIPP the praise that it deserves for the good it does for some students. Neither do I begrudge the extra resources that KIPP gets from private donors.

The problem is the claim that neighborhood schools could replicate those successes if we had higher expectations. Every day in my last two years in the classroom, I had a student transfer in or transfer out. I doubt anyone would claim that families chose my school in order to improve their life's prospects. If a student transferred to my school, obviously, it was because his or her family was not able to take advantage of the wide array of educational choices in our metropolitan area. At best, their only transition services were a handshake while being greeted or being told "good bye." Too many times, teachers were too overwhelmed to even offer those basic courtesies.

By pretending that KIPP serves our most vulnerable students, society is given an excuse for starving alternative services for our most traumatized kids. For the life of me, I can not understand why people of good will can not agree on the obvious. KIPP is the answer for some students. But our toughest secondary schools need far more investments for our most damaged children if we hope to provide educational futures for them and their classmates. Why not give our neighborhood schools the same chances to help poor kids that we give to KIPP?

 

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I was a social scientist before I became a teacher so I was excited to read that Mathematica had analyzed "late arrivals" who attended KIPP. That seemed to be an inspired methodology for determining w...
I was a social scientist before I became a teacher so I was excited to read that Mathematica had analyzed "late arrivals" who attended KIPP. That seemed to be an inspired methodology for determining w...
 
 
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12:34 PM on 04/23/2011
Expectations are HIGH for teachers because students are at the core of everything that is done at KIPP. Their motto is "All of us will learn"...there is no room for guessing, hoping, and wishing, especially when you're dealing with children whose futures have already been assumed for them by external factors. KIPP teachers fight the same battle as everyone else- just with extended hours.

We (successful charters + public schools) should be combining resources instead of scrutinizing those that work effectively. What ARE KIPP's methods- HOW should a school work with children who are in gangs, abused, miseducated, etc.? To assume that KIPP turns away students with severe emotional/behavioral problem is erronous, at best.

The bottom line is there are dedicated (and very talented) teachers everywhere who realize that change must come from the TOP first. KIPP, other public charters, and dedicated educators in low socio-economic neighborhoods will continue making a difference in the lives of children who have been written off by a society who doesn't "see" them on a regular basis.

Write about it or be about it. The "choice" is yours.
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
06:17 PM on 04/20/2011
I would like to see "fundamental" schools included in all districts. Parents and students agree to a code of conduct and students who refuse can be removed quickly. These schools will not solve all problems, but would be a haven for those students who can and will hold themselves to the behaviors that build academic success.
All districts should also have an alternative schools program for those students who thrive in an unstructured environment--and there are some who do.
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John Thompson
07:45 PM on 04/20/2011
been2there,
That's what I've been doing today, drafting a post on the need for alternative school for the reason you cite.
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John Thompson
12:35 PM on 04/18/2011
Royce,

Thanks for the link. It sounds like our situations are similar. Our school should not be the bottom of the state, but the neighborhood has access to around twenty school systems and over thirty charters and magnets and parents take advantage of their choices.

Tuitican, I said economics and other externals aren't the key. It is the complex combination of race, generational poverty, trauma, and concentrations of the most challenging kids left behind in isolated neighborhood schools, made worse by kids knowing they've been left behind.
12:12 PM on 04/18/2011
Read this about Noble Charter schools in Chicago - largely serves the Latino Population. The head of the organization is on mayor-elect Emanuel's reform team. I guess that means more campuses to come. When I started my work with 7th and 8th graders in this community, almost all went to neighborhood public schools. Now it's about 60%. I don't blame parents for wanting their child to be in an environment absent delinquents and special needs children, but what will happen a generation from now, when these schools, that receive public funding, are no longer free?

http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/chicago-charter-schools/Content?oid=3595045
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tultican
Thomas Ultican, MEd. BS Mecahnical Engineering
11:22 AM on 04/18/2011
You write, “Economics and race, as I would hope any educator would understand, are not the key factors for educational success …” I am an educator who does not understand this statement. It is completely opposite of national testing data and my own personal observations. Those impediments can be overcome but they are none the less key factors in educational outcomes.

It sounds like your KIPP School is consuming resources that could be spent on a continuation school for violent and disruptive children. Violence just cannot be tolerated and your school system needs policies in place to effectively deal with it.
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Gem Mayers
10:35 AM on 04/18/2011
Charter schools ARE PUBLIC schools. Just....charters.... less accountable in some ways (see my prev poost) and more in others...they CANNOT go in the "red" or they shut down. They cannot under- perform even on one performance matrix or they're shut down w/in 3 years (meanwhile some public schools can underperform 5 years on testing only before any drastic change). Most charters are non-union; but all charters are public in that they're free. Many (Not KIPP) are district- chartered and not corporate sponsored.
06:55 PM on 04/18/2011
Most charters are corporate owned in some way - They have many entities. The non-profit portion of the company heads the school, while it pays all of the for-profit parts in management, building and land leases, etc.
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rdsathene
Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire
01:47 PM on 04/19/2011
The often repeated assertion that charter schools are public schools is both specious and disingenuous. In court case after court case, charter-voucher schools (I'm quoting the Knapp v. Palisades Charter HS decision here) were found to be "corporation is not a 'public entity'". A more recent decision by the 9th Court says charters are NOT state actors. We understand why the corporate reform cabal keeps trying to manufacture the meme that charter schools are public schools. However, social justice advocates must continue to point out that they are in fact, publicly funded, privately managed entities that are corporations (that's what the 'C' in 501C3 stands for) more often than not.
08:44 PM on 04/19/2011
the C in 501C3 does not stand for Corporation -- it refers to the section of the Internal Revenue Code (section 501(c)(3) ) that specifies what is required to be classified as an exempt organization.
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Robert Schwartz
Parent, educator, edtech enthusiast/skeptic
10:22 AM on 04/18/2011
I don't think that "creaming" is the right word for charter schools such as KIPP. What these charters are doing is allowing neighborhood parents choice - the choice to not send their students to a school that has failed generations of kids. Let's look at this from the parents' and students' perspective as opposed to from the institutional and government perspective. Why don't we complain that public schools in affluent communities are "creaming" rich kids? Affluent individuals are able to choose their schools by moving into any neighborhood they want. Poor families cannot make that choice - let's allow them to make some choice.
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John Thompson
11:17 AM on 04/18/2011
Yes, maybe we should stop using the term "creaming." There are two problems with changing the word though. The term may be creating a problem, but it still describes a reality. After all, the choice is attractive to poor parents for the same reason as it is for affluent parents. They want creaming. They don't want the kids to be dragged down by the negative peer pressure which is one reason why neighborhood schools have failed to badly.

Secondly, I'm really focusing on something that is closer to a sort of reverse creaming. And its even harder to talk about. We need high-quality services for the 5 to10% of kids who have been through too much trauma to be able to function in neighborhood schools. In my experience, school leaders say they spend 85% of their time on that small group, and still they see little success. I don't say those alternative services must be in separate facilties, but they must be intensive and comprehensive. The problem is that we refuse to fund those program because, in part, it is cheap and easy to say that neighborhood schools should just adopt KIPP's expectations.
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Robert Schwartz
Parent, educator, edtech enthusiast/skeptic
12:31 PM on 04/18/2011
I think very few folks criticizing KIPP and other charters from creaming have their own children in under-performing schools. It is a form of hypocrisy as they made a choice for their children's schools.

I for one would love to see more charters dedicated to the 5-10% of highest-need students - any innovative solution would be welcome, charter or otherwise. As a former principal I can attest that I spent a great deal of time on those students with only sporadic success. We need to start thinking about schooling in totality as opposed to each school as an individual entity - some schools are going to be successful for some students some of the time. Within all schools, though, every student should be able to be successful - that takes options.
P.S. While I think KIPP is doing some great things, I am not a huge fan of their approach.
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Robert Schwartz
Parent, educator, edtech enthusiast/skeptic
01:55 PM on 04/18/2011
What's so bad about creaming anyway? It's that how we get butter?
07:08 PM on 04/18/2011
I am a teacher and understand your perspective, that parents and students should be able to "move" t to a school without violence, gang-bangers etc. The problem is the way in which it is being done. By making corporate run schools, it's true that a parent can remove his/her child from a poor public school, but then half the tax payer funding is going to corporations profits and students are often being taught by "teachers" with no license and who are not required to have a degree in what they are teaching. In essence, charter schools do allow choice, but that choice will destroy education as a career (money going to corporations, no need for teachers to get licenses/degrees, poor pay for teachers, one year contracts, etc.) If you were to compare qualifications of public school teachers with those of charter/private school teachers, you would find that in nearly all cases public school teachers are highly more qualified than non-public. The differences are that we work with every student, and we cannot turn away any student. What we must not do is destroy education as a career, we must fix public schools - and not turn it into a $10 an hour job done by last year's high school graduate. Do you know where they do that today? In the outskirts of Mexico's poorest regions, for one.
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Gem Mayers
10:06 AM on 04/18/2011
Charters are an interesting thing because law is vague for them. In some states, they do not have to do standardized testing, hire credentialed staff, can "cherry pick" students, etc. In California they do not have to follow Ed. code (but have a brief vague document of charter law) and must hire credentialed staff in core courses and must do standardized testing. Also they aren't allowed to cherry pick. I work in a CA charter and neighboring charters do kind of cherry pick though as we get those that were picked out.They will claim there is no room for IEP/Special Ed students, putting them on waiting lists. My school accepts all students so we often get who the continuation school wants to get rid of. (explore my blog if interested http://3rseduc.blogspot.com)
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sawyer0413
Corporate Learning & Performance Expert
07:49 AM on 04/18/2011
John,

You wrote, "Its research tells us nothing about whether the KIPP system of 99 schools could be scaled up." I know you are giving KIPP its due, but I think you are being too kind. As you noted in various ways throughout the post, KIPP and other charter schools can behave in ways that public schools cannot. From preselection bias, to student retention, to student discipline, it is obvious that these systems cannot scale. How can I say this with certainty?

You also wrote, "while indicating that its failure rate with their more difficult-to-educate students seems comparable to the failure rate of the toughest neighborhood schools." If KIPP can only produce similar results for the most difficult to educate, they are simply incapable of scaling. With all their advantages, including a smaller student body, they could only match the results for the most difficult to educate. WOW! That is a startling bit of data.

Thanks for the excellent post. I agree with you on KIPP. I'm just sad to see that they get all the praise and adoration, while public schools and public school teachers, like you, are ridiculed and professionally degraded.
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John Thompson
10:10 AM on 04/18/2011
sawyer0413

I see no possibility of KIPP scaling up much. If they did, they would have to deal with the burnout factor. Especially if their more difficult to educate kids were joined by the most difficult to educate kids in the neighborhood schools, there is no way that teachers could keep up those hours.
09:44 AM on 04/19/2011
What are their teacher retention rates? A serious concern I have is the workload they impose on their teachers. In the reading I have done, I have determined that KIPP teachers workday typically runs from 7:30 am to 5:15 pm. They also have to take student calls for 2 hours each evening to address homework help issues, and they work some number of Saturdays, in addition to a longer work year. Where does this leave any "family time" for teachers who are themselves parents?

As destroying unions gains traction, I suspect we will see, throughout our nation, a giant step backward in terms of the rights and working conditions average Americans can expect. 10 hour mandatory workdays, for lower (prorated) wages, are being touted as desirable in "good" charter schools. KIPP and its knockoffs are leading the charge.

What is the shelf life of a teacher under these circumstances?
09:25 PM on 04/17/2011
Unbelievable. Its completely obvious that Charter schools creams their students by what is called a preselection bias. Namely that students gain admission by lottery into Charter schools, the parents that would enter their child into a lottery is where the bias exists. The number of students excluded from that preselection is substantially larger than those included. In addition the characteristics of the students who are never entered into a lottery is much more volatile both academically and behaviorally than those whose parents care enough to participate. Since education is compulsory, that means that the inner city public schools are stuck holding the bag. This should be completely obvious to anyone who can breathe. If you want to have Charter schools, then in order for them to truly show their "added value" it should randomly select its students from the public school enrollment in the district it presides over.
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John Thompson
07:25 AM on 04/18/2011
What you are describing is inherent in these types of charters not just KIPP. I recall one charter often cited by the Administration for success with "the same kids in the same building" where the founder said he was disappointed that his strict discipline policy kept the more disruptive out. Mathematica, as I read it, shows KIPP has done what is possible to minimize creaming, but what about Baltimore and (as I recall four other districts) that had a diagnostic test (with the stakes of being put back a grade) during the application process. If they did not see the selective nature of that, they are lying too themselves.

Even so, I won't criticize KIPP or others who tithe by taking as many of the toughest kids as possible without damaging their program. But no, KIPP can't be compared and all of that choice has made our jobs in neighborhood schools tougher.
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mlaiuppa
Pres. Sarcasm Society. Like we need your approval.
07:24 PM on 04/17/2011
Anyone who thinks that you can improve schools by simply holding students to achieve to higher and more rigorous standards while at the same time vilifying their teachers as lazy, incompetent and greedy, eliminating their healthcare, pensions, collective bargaining and lowering their salaries is living in a dream world.

You cannot expect students to respect teachers if you do not respect them.

The number one way you can improve schools is to eliminate childhood poverty.

After that, try treating teachers as the professionals they are.

Charters are charters because they are exempted from the rules and restrictions that limit public schools. Public schools cannot pick and choose their students. Public schools cannot simply expel a student.
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John Thompson
07:31 AM on 04/18/2011
Thanks. I agree. So, lets put this energy into the services our kids need. Being a high school teacher. I respect any urban middle school teachers for getting into the battle. But if they use their charters to criticize us, that hurts kids. I honestly don't know how many actual KIPP educators agree to being a club used by "reformers" who want to soothe their consciences with cheap and easy policies, and the blame game. I suspect most who play the KIPP card, have just taken tours of schools.
07:21 PM on 04/17/2011
I'm with you by the end, where you point out that KIPP schools aren't serving the same population as the schools they claim to be outperforming, but I question your earlier assertion that KIPP schools are "reducing 'creaming' as much as is possible for a system where poor families must apply, and volunteer to meet much higher standards." Maybe they ARE reducing it as much as possible. But given the situation, that still results in a heck of a lot of creaming.

I'm also dubious about that report that "the highly-respected Princeton think tank showed that the numbers of KIPP's new students entering at the beginning of their sixth through eighth grade years, as well as the numbers leaving before graduating from middle school, are comparable to schools that are located near their sample of KIPP schools." Other articles I've read on the subject have suggested otherwise, and said that KIPP's attrition rate is several times that of nearby schools, suggesting two levels of creaming: they take the most motivated kids from neighborhood schools and send back the ones that aren't performing well. As always, I'm sure it depends on which schools are being looked at, and who's doing the looking. But I'd be very surprised if schools with much higher expectations and standards failed to have higher rates of attrition.

And somewhat off-topic: KIPP doesn't accept mid-year enrollment? Just imagine how much better traditional public schools could be if they had the same power.
10:58 PM on 04/17/2011
Yes, my particular elementary school in a low-socioeconomic area of Orange County, CA has just in the past week enrolled 12 new students, the week before spring break. There's only eight weeks left in the school year afterwards; the state tests begin the week after we get back. You can imagine the circumstances these families are in if they couldn't wait out the school year to move. One family has just come from 5 years in Mexico while the mom tried to avoid rearrest on a parole violation- the 4 kids did not attend school the whole time there.
06:51 AM on 04/18/2011
Now, those kids need help. They need to go to school somewhere. And your schools is open to them (as I think it should be). But KIPP schools aren't.

How much better would your school look, and how much more secure would your job be, if you could turn them away, though? I don't think you should. I'm just asking how things would change if you were to do so.
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John Thompson
08:46 AM on 04/18/2011
jojacky,

You hit it. Aren't yor students human beings? Why continue to fight the blame game of data-driven accountability rather than help those kids?

If, however, KIPP and other niche programs could show that we just need quick and easy solutions, like blaming neigborhood schools for low expectations, then our consciences can be clear. The feds can coerce districts to send out memos to teachers to work harder, or else, and the problem is solved!
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John Thompson
08:06 AM on 04/18/2011
The previous Mathematica report says:

“Across the descriptive analyses presented in this chapter, there is little evidence that KIPP middle schools are systematically enrolling more advantaged or higher achieving students from their districts.”

They thus are talking about external factors that aren't the key. They say nothing about the much more important issues of motivation, and other socio-emotional advantages and disadvantages.

As I recall, the attrition data comes from 19, not 22, of their 99 schools, and two excluded schools are illustrative. They are studying the success stories. Give the other schools you and I have heard about a decade to implement their vision, they may reduce their attrition rate - or they may not.

I am not criticizing what the Mathematica authors did in their study. I do criticize the lead author's criticism of Miron et al in Ed Week. He was making statements beyond what his evidence could support, and he should not have done that.
01:11 PM on 04/18/2011
I think we agree more than we disagree. Certainly, motivation and socio-economics are huge. By the nature of charter schools, they can't help but skim off the students of motivated parents. Whether the kids are comparable in other ways to the kids in the public school they're leaving is less important than the fact that they've got parents who are at least minimally supportive. That's true, in general, of every kid attending a charter school, by virtue of the opt-in model. I'd expect that factor alone to create more successful charter schools than we're currently seeing, even if all other factors were the same between the charters and the publics they're trying to replace.
03:43 PM on 04/17/2011
Nice post John. I would like to have you write more about your experiences an urban teacher. Your description was quite vivid and sad. The general public needs to have their eyes opened to reality.
The NEA supposedly thought about doing a movie on teachers but didn't do it. What can I say? Someone certainly needs to show the public the real world of the public schools.
While it is always nice to be reasonable, I worry that educators are bending over backwards to be
fair and tolerant. The WP had a great editioral today about the progressives getting creamed allowing the raiders of our social institutions to set the message and agenda. The editorial said that tolerance and high mindedness plays right into the hands of the raiders. The deformers never play fair or stray from their message. The privateers, charter operators, and test manufacturers are ruthless and never miss a chance to demonize and be destructive towards public education.
Hopefully teachers will continue to show the reality of our lives and our students but will not allow the deformers to get off the hook and control the message.
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John Thompson
04:39 PM on 04/17/2011
Thanks. Deformers don't play fair. Misuse of KIPP is just one example. I'm now editing my manuscript, Getting Schooled, on my experiences in the classroom. I hope publishers read your comment.

One of the lessons I draw, by the way, is that "all is politics." Rather than seeking technocratic solutions and driving politcs out of schooling, we should embrace an educational politics of inclusion. We should be happy political warriors. After all, teaching is leadership, and leadership is politics.
02:24 PM on 04/17/2011
Particularly valuable in this account, and rare in educational commentary, are its reasonable tone and the fact that the author has relevant experience and knows what he's talking about. Let's hope that there is space for moderate views in educational controversy; we need reasonable people to help bring us all together, thereby resisting the polarization that is corroding all things political in American public life, particularly under the cover of anonymity in the blogosphere.
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John Thompson
05:51 PM on 04/17/2011
Thanks. Miron says there is no contradiction between his work and Mathematica. I wonder why the Mathematica author sees the need to deny that. He wasn't hired to assess the broader policy questions. Clearly, they have a different, though undefined definition of the word "cream." But that is something to talk out. I wouldn't be offended if a freshman teacher said that my senior classes had been creamed in comparison to his or hers, and I sure wouldn't be deny that a huge amount of creaming occured since the kids left middle school.
04:25 PM on 04/18/2011
Perhaps "winnowing" is the more effective metaphor. My seniors at Locke usually weren't cream, but they certainly were survivors.