John Dean: From Nixon to Bush to Giuliani--"Much, Much Worse"

The following piece is part of an ongoing series of OffTheBus reports by citizen policy experts critiquing different aspects of Campaign 08.

John Dean knows something about White House abuse of power. He wrote a bestseller in 2004 on the Bush White House called Worse Than Watergate. In a recent interview I asked him what he thinks of that title now. Now, he replied, a book comparing Bush and Nixon would have to be called Much, Much Worse.

"Look at the so-called Watergate abuses of power," he said. "Nobody died. Nobody was tortured. Millions of Americans were not subject to electronic surveillance of their communications. We're playing now in a whole different league."

And how does Bush compare with the Republicans seeking to succeed him? "If a Rudy Giuliani were to be elected," Dean said, "he would go even farther than Cheney and Bush in their worst moments."

What about the rest of the pack? "I'm very concerned about the current attitude in the Republican party," he said. "However there are candidates on the Republican side who are not quite as frightening as Giuliani." When I asked who he had in mind, he laughed and said "Ron Paul." He conceded that "there's no chance he's going to be president."

Dean's new book is Broken Government: How Republican Rule Destroyed the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial Branches. It's a massively documented and thorough indictment, arguing that, over the last 30 years, Republicans have broken or ignored laws, rules, and the Constitution. He's especially critical of the growth of presidential power under Bush II, and what he calls the "corruption" of the courts by "radical conservatives."

I asked Dean to imagine the moment when Bush leaves office on Jan. 20, 2009, presumably to be replaced by a Democrat, presumably Hillary -- will it then be possible to say "our long national nightmare is over"? Dean replied with one word: "Yes."

He quickly added, "I do feel strongly that the Republicans have so abused the law and embedded so many people within the system, within the executive branch, that's it's going to take a couple of terms of Democratic presidents before you have people there who are representing the American people."

Does that mean he is supporting Hillary? "She's obviously the one the other Democrats have to beat," he said, "but I don't take any position."

How then would he describe his political position? He says in his new book that he's left his "former tribe" - does that make him a Democrat today? "It doesn't," he replied. "I carry water for nobody. My only interest is being an honest information broker about what's happening. I have no agenda other than explaining - and being shocked at my former tribe."

"I've had invitations to become involved with Democrats," he added, "and have turned them all down. I'm an independent. That happens to be the largest group of voters in the country today - we're about 40 per cent strong."

When I pressed Dean to comment on the Democratic candidates, he said he was more interested in whether any Democrats would raise what he called "process" issues - "kind of a dull-sounding word, but actually it's about the machinery of democracy. I was stunned when the Kerry campaign in 2004 totally ignored the remarkable secrecy of the Bush administration. I called the Kerry campaign after the election, and asked them why they hadn't raised this issue. The Kerry people told me, 'We didn't raise it because it's a process issue.'"

"I began making inquiries," he continued, "and found that lots of Democratic party campaign consultants believe that the candidates shouldn't mention process issues. Democrats thought it would make them look wimpy to say 'we're being excluded from the legislative process.' Kerry didn't want to raise secrecy for the same reason - he thought it would sound wimpy."

Was Kerry right about the electorate? "I found that's exactly 180 digress away from the truth," Dean replied. "Most people can't tell you what a motion to recommit is. They don't know about that kind of process. But they know when they're getting screwed. And process is designed to protect the public interest. So people get it when the game of politics is not being played fairly, when one party is using the process for their own benefit. These kinds of things are of great interest to about 20 to 30 million voters."

What about the many more who are apathetic and ignorant -- doesn't that make him pessimistic about political change? Dean conceded that "large segments of the American public are turned off and tuned out from the democratic process. They can't name their senators. They don't know who's the Chief Justice. But the reason I'm optimistic is that I think we have enough proxies in those who are interested. They are fairly representative of those who are not. When you give them the information they need, they do the right thing. That's why I'm trying to give people good information and hard facts to show people what's gone wrong."

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Comments

[AnotherunhappyDemocrat]

My question is to Dean and the approximately 40% of the electorate he calls "independent." Given that many of you think that both parties (Democratic and Republican) are rotten to the core, what would make you consider a third party? The Republicans are fascists, the Democrats are spineless, and the system is an absolute mess. And yet most of the independents I see and/or meet, still vote within this system. Try a third party! We've many in this country. If enough of you "independents" would vote outside of the box, a third party could conceivably gain some power. That would be the best cure for what ails us.

[FOXYLADY]

Good idea, Another, but each time an independent ran, the votes that went to him helped elect the Repukes...going the way you suggest would take eons to work!! I wish the Dems would have worked on "impeachment" instead of "fluffing around" with things that have not that much affect

[john456]

The need is to focus across the entire ticket. An independent as president without the mmembers in Congress is virtually helpless (Ron Paul might be able to single handedly restore the constitution, but nothing requiring legislation.) New members of congress that are part of that movement also need to be elected. Unfortunately, the incumbents dispense the perks. Hence, Joe Lieberman could convince enough voters that if he lost the New London Sub Base would close. (It probably would have remained on the BRAC list.)

[AnotherunhappyDemocrat]

Yeah it could take eons to work, or not. While I wouldn't expect a miracle, there are allegedly all these large numbers of "independents" out there, who really aren't that independent, because in the end, most of them vote for the status quo. Nothing changes. My challenge to all these "independents" is for them to vote outside of the box. And there are third parties candidates running all down the ticket. So yeah, one possible if not probable consequence of my idea is more Republicans being elected, which thrills me just as much as it thrills you. But if we allow that fear to keep controlling us, the best we can get will be spineless Democrats, who keep on disappointing us. I'm tired of that!

[TheDude1369]

the third party is the independents, always has been. two party system only balances out the middle, always has been.

[richardgordon]

I find it difficult to believe that George Bush's Administration and Republican party is so difficult to dislodge from power. Ultimately, it boils down to the American people. You elected him, its your responsibility to throw him out. Why didn't you do so in the last election? The world wants to know. Here is a man that was demonstrably inarticulate, who was a fool, a liar and a charlatan and still he was re-elected after a disastrous first term as President. You can blame it on the "elites" or the oil companies, or whoever you want to but ultimately the decision comes down to the American people. If you are too busy to care about who runs your country, if you are too busy watching Rosanne or Monday Night Football then you deserve to live in a fascist police state where your government wire taps your phones and snoops into your mail, where religious wing nuts dictate your freedoms and your standard of living is guaranteed to decline because you waste trillions and trillions of dollars on pointless military equipment rather than on something more useful like Education, Healthcare and infrastructure. All the while poor impoverished nations like China and India have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. The day is fast arriving when America will wake up to find that its lost its vaunted superpower status to become a tin pot dictatorship run by neo-con Republicans... Only one person can stop this from happening. You. Get off your fat asses and vote these bums out.

[jaundicedview]

As Stalin said and Rove learned, It's not who casts the votes, it's who counts the votes.

[paixa3]

and...to have a theoretical opposition party that have NO BALLS IN ANY SENSE of the word.

[Dr. Alchemy]

Well said..just ask the people of Florida in 2000 and the people of Ohio in 2004. When a top executive of a voting machine company.. (diebold)..says he will do what it takes to swing votes the way he thinks they should go we're in big trouble.

[Condetector]

Sounds like you are from elsewhere--believe me there are many Americans, I being one, that have been highly distressed about the poor choices of the electorate. Both elections were helped along by dishonest thugs however. You are so right--I long for us to WAKEUP!

[Veleria29]

You can vote in every election to remove Bush or vote for his rival the democratic candidate but until the voting process is fixed the republicans have the power of the votes and the voting machines. In my opinion Bush has not won either Presidential election. He received votes in both elcetion which should have gone to the democratic candidate.
In 2000 people were removed from the voting list and many were turned away and not allowed to vote. The Supreme Court stopped the vote count and put Bush in office. In 2004 the machines were fixed to allow Bush to receive votes that should have been Kerry's in Ohio. The voting system in this country is broken and the people should demand a paper trail on every voting machine before the 2008 election if not the people will be screwed again. The dems had enough votes to elec the democratic candidate in both elections they were just never counted.

[laocoon]

I think you are dead right. the tool used to show when a election has been tampered with shows that Florida was tampered with in 2000 and the swing states in 2004. People(conservatives and most liberals) just glaze over when you raise the topic. I have seen 12 presidential elections and the only times the exit poll predictions were seriously wrong were all in favor of Bush and in key states. It is hard for people to accept that because if you accept it you really must either give up on America or realize we have a difficult and dangerous task to regain it. It is easier to say it can not happen here and let it happen.

[linkunlovr]

What a fabulous entry Richard. I enjoy your writing. The only thing I can add is at last there is a really different kind of candidate, a man of unbought integrity who had the vision to vote and speak against the war from the beginning, who is proposing a real not for profit health care system to save our people and our jobs and who actually sees peace as a goal of foreign policy rather than conquest,
Dennis Kucinich. Naturally he is ignored or ridiculed by the corporate owned media. However the people have an opportunity to get real change for the first time in my memory.

[Kendo Nagasaki]

One of the problems is corporate control of TV.

Lots of folk think Bill O'Reilly is fair and balanced instead of the neocon propagandist he is.

Remember that song " It must be true, I saw it on TV"

The Democrats use nuanced arguments that most people get bored with. The right uses bumper sticker slogans to good effect, because the average person has an attention span of ten seconds.

[laocoon]

Hit the nail on the head Kendo. Not only slogans but slogans repeated and an ad industry with all the skills needed to hone the effect.

[Nancyann]

Nobody could possibly be as bad as Madame Clinton. She skirts the law in her fund raising and is a fraud. Rudy would be far superior in all ways.

[Dr. Alchemy]

I'd rather suffer the "death of a thousand cuts", then see that megalomaniac president. What has he done but take advantage of the fact that he happened to be mayor at the time of 9/11? His "I spent all my time at ground zero" rhetoric lasted just long enough for someone to check and see that in those months, he was at Yankee games twice as much as he was at ground zero.

[Kendo Nagasaki]

Rudi is definitely a superior fascist grandstander. If he gets in he will be worse than Bush.

[xenofile]

I'm not a fan of Hillary, but I think this is a ridiculous notion. They're all players, not to be trusted, but I think Giuliani is the far greater fraud, superior in no way, and more frightening in many ways.

[motamanx]

Rudy is an empty suit. He has done virtually nothing. The firemen and police in NYC still cannot communicate.
He was at the Yankee games, not ground zero.

If Hil and Rudy are the best we can do, we are indeed a poor country.

[josieb]

The charge about Hillary's fundraising was made by one of the advisors to that lazy ass Fred Thompson's so-called ''campaign.'' It's obvious that they have nothing better to do and hate Hillary because she's a woman, as do so many jealous right-wingers. Judy G. keeps Rudy on way too short a leash to trust him in any kind of crisis. But back to Rudy, he's a favorite of Bush's and since that individual's taste is all in his mouth when it comes to selecting anyone to do anything--except maybe fold towels in a gym, that's a terrific reason not to vote for lil' Rudy!

[Nancyann]

The dislike of Madame Clinton has nothing to do with the fact that she is a female. It has to do with the facts that she is a panderer and a weathervane politician. She doesn't take a stand until she gets the results of a poll, she has 5 different stnds on Iraq and now she can't decide about torture policy. She can't even decide between the Cubs and the Yankees. The Republicans have now sent out signals that they shouldn't be too tough on her because she is a woman. Well if she wants to play with the big boys thn she has to take all the criticm and scrutiny that they take. She CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. She is a total fraud. I was surprised but even Chris Mathews said that last night Hurray for candor....Rudy is still better. Of course I would rather have Al Gore!!!!

[laocoon]

Zero Tolerance is a fascist ideal. Hail Rudy who will make the trains run on time and all the right people safe from the wrong people.

[Purple Girl]

Ah John, Nixon was spying on Americans. Don't obscure the truth. When theres a REpug in Office, history has proven,privacy is out the window. And now we are starkly aware the Dems are plying in this charade.
Frankly the DEMs lied to me, something I expect from the Repugs,So I'm even more rabid regarding their actions and inactions.
I never have nor ever will vote Red, but Blue ain't gettin it either, Co conspirators

[researcher]

half the people i talk to on the street and in the markets dont want anything to do with politics. for ten years i agreeded with them.

both parties corrupt what choice do we have?

we have become an imperialist nation.

soldiers in iraq after 2013 to guard our bases yea right thats imperialism folks.

[UNCLEJOE]

vote independent

[paixa3]

ditto

"Raise YOUR standards, become INDEPENDENT"

[Snakeback]

A Cheney-engineered terrorist attack is definitely on the table.

Also there should be an investigation of why Nancy Pelosi refuses to impeach. What's her payoff?

She and Hillary both know that the main goal Cheney has before 2009 is to get us in a war in Iran. They know that impeachment would effectively make that impossible.

What I conclude from that is that Nancy and Hillary both must also believe we must have a war with Iran.

Most likely because they see it as vital to US oil interests.

Follow the money, follow the oil. The rest is smoke and mirrors.

The GOP front runners didn't show up because the GOP is the Racism Party, plain and simple. They don't want the black vote, and they don't even want blacks to vote.

The 1959 map of the USA - that's the target date the GOP wants to mve us back to. Before women's rights, gay rights, vegans, and the internet. Before civil rights, before hippies, before inflation, before environmentalism, back when they were all little kids and life seemed so simple. Back when Americans were good guys and Nazis and Commies were bad Guys. And good guys killed bad guys, got the girl, and everyone lived happily ever after in suburbia.

We just can't seem to kill our way back to those days...

[RogerHWerner]

Dean's comments are interesting as usual and its nice to see that he identifies the present problems as having originated in previous administrations (I'd argue it began with Reagan). I have a comment about his Kerry campaign point and I disagree that things would automatically improve which ever Democratic candidate is elected. Dean is obviously an optimist. By nature I too am an optimist but with regards politics, I tend towards cynicism. I watched Kerry in 2004 and I'd swear the guy deliberately lost the election and this feeling wasn't owing to his not raising process issues. Kerry made many judgmental errors that were obvious to even a political outsider like myself. Too many mistakes for them to have all been coincidental. After the election, especially after the GOP fixed the Ohio vote, I began to wonder if Kerry was supposed to keep the election close enough so the GOP could manipulate the vote in a single swing state to win in the Electoral College. The election shouldn't have been as close as it was. I keep thinking that Bush and Kerry are both members of Skull and Bones and one of their rules is that they don't talk negatively about each other in public. If Kerry went on the attack, he would have had to personally attack Bush and I wonder if he just wasn't able to do that. So Bush's attack dogs went after Kerry and Kerry was unable to fight back and he had no groups willing to do his dirty work for him. It's probably my imagination...

As for the situation in America improving if a Democrat were elected...let's just say I think it would depend on which candidate. The mainstream candidates would likely maintain the status quo, which means nothing will change. It is going to take a sea change in Washington to remove all of the rot that has accrued in this country's political system.

[nickyboy1]

China is our banker. .. way way into billions of dollars we owe- so you can bet they're calling PLENTY of shots, foreign countries own vast parcels of our American land and many businesses; we are in debt - $9 trillion. We have extremely bad, amoral government who have created debt & sold us out to foreign entities...and the upper 3% ...and is more than willing to reduce us to a 3rd world nation. When the dems were elected and nothing happened, I swallowed hard. We do need them though - we must have balanced people in high places if there is to be any hope at all.

[OneFish]

I think the Stanford prison experiment demonstrated that there will always be plenty of players waiting in the wings to abuse power.

The only worthwhile effort is protecting the Constitutional mechanisms that can marginalize the abusers.

Trial and hanging might help too.

[woodsywizz]

I'm pretty independent, but I'm a pragmatist. A vote for a third party is a vote for the Republicans; THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED. By all means, build up and vote for third parties at the local and state levels! After each state legislature has members from three (or four) parties, there will be a chance for a third party ticket! Remember: Ralph Nader said there was no difference between Democrats and Republicans. And enough people voted for him to swing the election to Bush. Does ANYONE think President Gore would have done 1/10th the damage to the USA that Bush has done? Let alone to other nations? Please, please do your voting in the primaries to pick Democrats you want to see in Congress, etc. Do the fighting there. For the next ten years, at least, we MUST concentrate on undoing the terrible wrongs that the Republicans have so gleefully committed!

[PADDYWHACK]

woods,they're not finished yet,if they getin by splitting the vote it may lead to civil unrest

[mtburke59]

And since our military is tied up in Iraq, guess who would be hired to put it down.

Blackwater.

And their CinC is not the President but Eric Prince, who answers only to God.

Think about it.

[nickyboy1]

Oh yes woodsy, repugs were certainly gleeful while they went about trashing our beautiful America. How they could do this I will never know.

You are so right about Gore . . . what a different world it would be today if Gore had won.

[Truthorelse]

"President Gore would have done 1/10th the damage to the USA that Bush has done? Let alone to other nations"

Pst, pst, do you remember who was Gore's' vice-president? Yup. The super scumbag, warmongering piece of sh*t Joe LIEberman. This means the damage would have been identical and I have a hunch that they would have bumped Gore off and we would have had the first Zionist president. Oy Vey!
The neo-cons and the zionists own both parties. Unfortunate but true.

[Mark701]

Unfortunately, if Gore had gotten in, I think we'd simply have put off having Bush as president. Better that the pain is ending in 2009 rather than just beginning.

[CharliePfromHB]

Yes, Gore would have been better. But perhaps, unfortunately, sometimes experiences like Vietnam and Iraq are gone through to teach a lesson. So a 2008 Gore, would benefit from the lessons and see that the return of the USA's international integrity is the historical turning point, as well as energy and other natural resource policy. I'm sure Rome had alot of blunders before its decay. Will we get a chance to overcome the current "Assault on Reason"? Funny how Gore said in three words how most of us feel, on both sides of the aisle.

[ThomasDoubting]

Thank you,John Dean....
Guiliani is a major Creep. He is the only one, that could fill Cheney's shoes.Romney or Thompson could easily replace the Chimp. I think that it has worked well for the Republicans, having the guy out front just read the script, even if he does not understand it, while behind the curtain Cheney is doing anything he wants. This is not your father's Republican Party It could be said that the party was hijacked, by Corporate America Others might say it was the so-called Christians. I don't know what happened to it,but the elephant is dead! What kind of person could be expected to vote Republican in the privacy of a voting booth, considering what has been done to us over the last several years. I have noticed that the last two presidential elections were stolen, and I expect that this one, will be too.I intend to go through the motions as though this is a real election, but if they tell us the Republicans got more than 25% of the vote those are stolen votes, and we can no longer trust the Corporate Polls either.

[realpolitic]

John Dean recognizes a sociopath when he sees one. After all, he did work for Nixon. I'm sure he sees many of the same characteristics in our present president.

[PADDYWHACK]

Nixon had a sociopathic personality but Bush is missing the part of his brain that tackles complexity.He makes up for this by taking absolutist positions and sticking to them.The first person to plant the idea has the advantage namely Cheney.Any sentient being would realize he's out of his depth,some of his biographers should be ashamed for not pointing out that he's a moron.

[Mark701]

I think what you're saying is Bush is stupid. I agree.

[UNCLEJOE]

John Dean Admitted that he is an Independent. Me too.

[Desiderata]

I suppose there will be some kind of "Restoring the Constitution" committee at the Democratic Convention. I certainly hope it will be a powerful shaper of the Democratic platform.

[paixa3]

Like your handle. I doubt if anyone is thinking constitution these days.

Power and money, yes. Justice, No.

[BrickSykes]

I don't believe you. The number of Americans coming to believe just how badly they've been taken is growing by thousands a day! And most of them are realizing that it is because the Constitution has been trampled on by people who should know better.

They don't like knowing it is the Republican Party but there is no one else to blame.

[Larenzo]

There's one little caveat here....namely the expectation that that there will be elections in 2008. I fully expect another "terrist" attack, bogus of course, that will result in martial law and suspension of the elections. The dubya/cheney regime will remain in power, and that's all she wrote. Mark my words and call me back in Dec 2008, although your calls will be monitored and you will be hauled off and declared an enemy combatant and be disappeared. Bank on it....a done deal.

[dadw5boys]

That's what I am afraid of too.

[yaznaioutibia]

Larenzo, there will be elections and you and I know that. I think what you meant to say was, is it worth voting as the outcome is a foregone conclusion. The Republican candidate will win no matter what. That is why I am moving to a third party. that is the only power that can shake the whole cesspool up. After the vote in our legislative bodies to condemn MoveOn, with the support of so many Democrats, I see the third way as the only way.

[maddogbitesback]

Please don't act on that idea. The first thing is to get the Republicans out. Democrats have problems but their is no hope if their is not a united front against the Republicans. They can deal with process when they are in power.

[Truthorelse]

I certainly hope a REAL Republican will win. Ron Paul, that is. He is superior to any of the phony Dems 'cuz we have one party rule here, Republicrats!

[ParacleteofKavorka]

Well, this administration has prepared us for it. It's like boiling a frog by putting it in a pot of cold water and then slowly heating it. We won't realize it till it's too late.

[OneFish]

The boiling frog schtick is an urban myth.

The un-Bill-of-Rights'd American is not.

[jaundicedview]

"The boiling frog schtick is an urban myth."
No, It's a metaphor.

[Webheadstl]

Don't forget voter caging by the Republicans. Ohio and Florida, in particular, must be watched closely by Democrats and Independents.

[tgood]

I won't rest easy until I see an election actually held. Bush has "mentioned" what the grounds of suspending the presidential would be when the "terrorist alerts" first began.

Anyone who doesn't think it's possible for another part of the Constitution to be ignored is really ignoring how much already has been done in this unprecedented power grab by the president and vice president. .

[Opus007]

The public is really not aware of the power grab because the media is not covering it. The middle class is just trying to survive.

[Rescisco]

"You suggest that Republicans have learned little about abusing power...." I would suggest most Americans have learned little about abusing power. The abuses are, as Mr. Dean notes, "much worse." Yet there is no MSM media coverage or analysis of this, no attempts by the loyal opposition to hold the president accountable, and very little public outcry. Yes the manipulation of fear and a brilliant campaign of misinformation after 9-11 fueled the executive tyranny of the past six plus years, but that alone cannot explain the massive and systematic undermining of our constitutional system. We have an inconvenient truth to face up to here. We have all surrendered individual liberty and constitutional processes without so much as a whimper. Some did it for an illusion of security or strength, others out of either ignorance or apathy, and some were too busy to do much beyond murmur their discontent. But we are in this mess together and we now must work our way out of it together. But we may have left ourselves both politically impotent and intellectually unarmed for the task. I hope that is not the case.

[laocoon]

We used to have media and press that was much more diversified. this kept everyone honest. thank Reagan for destroying that. now we have fewer voices and the owners realize what side of the news bread is buttered with more power and wealth for them.

[DrPaulProteus]

"I'm an independent. That happens to be the largest group of voters in the country today - we're about 40 per cent strong."

I like John Dean, but its time we stopped using the term "independent" to describe people who still vote for one faction or the other of the permanent party we have in Washington.

[UNCLEJOE]

Draft Kucinich as an Independent Candidate. 40% strong can win.

[AurigaRa]

wish that was true. The rethugs and their democratic minions will NEVER let Mr. Kucinich get NEAR the WH.

Ron Paul either.