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Jonathan Fogel

Jonathan Fogel

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Manimony After Matrimony?

Posted: 05/25/11 12:43 PM ET

Take a moment right now and imagine this divorcing couple:

One person earns $400,000 a year in a high-powered job. The other is staying home with the kids and taking a career break. The stay-at-home spouse wants financial support from the working spouse. Seems logical, right?

But, who is the woman and who is the man and should that make a difference?

Traditionally, the man has been the one earning the big bucks while the woman puts her career on hold to take care of the kids.

Today, more and more women are considered the breadwinners of their family. In fact, in some households, the women are making all the money. That's fine in a healthy marriage, but when the couple is heading to splitsville, the equation becomes very, complicated and the parties... beyond bitter!

I see this type of situation all the time with women who are successful business owners, CEOs and executives. They've been the top, or only earner in the family. Then, all of a sudden, they're getting a divorce and are expected to support their husbands with what's now being dubbed as manimony. Let's just say my clients that fall into this category aren't too pleased about supporting their exes.

There really are two valid sides to this argument. If you think about it, men have been paying spousal support for years to their ex-wives who are staying home to raise the kids. Many of these stay-at-home moms have argued they gave up a career to raise a family and are entitled to compensation for that sacrifice.

After all, the goal of spousal maintenance is to financially support someone who cannot support himself or herself after the marriage ends. So does it really matter if that someone is a man or woman?

Women argue even if they are the CEO of their own company, for example, they are still often the CEO of the house as well. The school calls them when the kids are sick. These moms still take the kids to the dentist, doctor and extracurricular activities and often wake up in the middle of the night when the child is sick. These high-powered female executives argue because they are moms, by definition, the bulk of the care seems to rest on their shoulders. They're doing double-duty, so to speak, and don't want to send a check to their ex every month because they don't believe he bares the brunt of the single parent job.

So, you see, the debate is heated. The players have changed sides and therefore, changed the game when it comes to spousal support. How do you avoid the contention? It's simple: a prenuptial or post-nuptial agreement. Sure these documents may seem unromantic or unnecessary for a couple that is "so in love." But, when it comes to matters of the heart, it can pay-off to use your head. I've surely worked with men and women who wished they had!

 
 
 
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
cinemaven
Mom, wife, social & political activist, writer...
08:20 AM on 07/03/2011
Jonathan, I'm not a fan of changing the name of alimony when it applies to men. Alimony is alimony no matter which partner is entitled to it and its purpose is to equalize inequities in earnings so both partners have more equal lifestyles after the dissolution of a marriage. That usually means both partners have a drop in lifestyle as suddenly maintaining separate living spaces is expensive. We all make choices in our marriages and if the woman is the primary earner and also the primary cook and bottle washer, it's her choice and shouldn't effect alimony any more than it would if the man was primary earner and primary cook and bottle washer. My husband, until his layoff 3 years ago was the primary earner in our home and I was a stay at home mom but we still shared the cooking and cleaning responsibilities (actual 50/50 sharing, not the "hubby does dishes" sharing my friends talk about) so a person who chooses to do everything is working on their own issues.

I believe alimony for partners of either sex should have a time limit and should be in place to help the partner who is not equal in earnings be able to support themselves. It's very different from child support which should be paid until the child is 18 or out of school. I believe it should be determined by a formula instead of at the whim of a judge who bring their prejudices to each case.
03:27 PM on 07/02/2011
"I think the law is equal, but the mentality and the application of the law is not yet equal..." so I ask really? What is the net effect, if the mentality and application of the law is not equal then the law is not equal. Justice and equality for all ? I don't think so. It's abundantly obvious that the Judges who are enforcing this law are just looking to apply a one size fits all approach reguardless of what the reality of the circumstances are. This is no different in Texas, sure there may be no lifetime Alimony, but the indescriminate use of a law just becasue its easiest to rubber stamp everyone does not make it any more just. Not to mention,in TX where like most states the man is most likely not going to be the custodial parent, just as a matter of course, you may as well had been convicted as a sex offender, they stop short of putting one of those ankle bracelets on you but not much.
02:33 AM on 05/29/2011
I want to thank everyone who took the time to read my article and post a comment. I am always interested in a debate about the law as it relates to divorce and other family law matters. Statistically speaking, 33% of women out-earn their spouses, but only 4% of spousal maintenance/alimony payors are women. I think the law is equal, but the mentality and the application of the law is not yet equal. Please become one of my fans and get my updates.
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04:19 PM on 06/01/2011
My husband and I have been married for 15 years. Last year he moved out and filed for divorce.I was left with the mortgage, property taxes payments and a car loan. He also refused to split the cost of our son’s extracurricular activities and even school lunches. Now he is suing me to pay him child support of $650 a month and spousal support of $1,773 a month, as well as his lawyer’s fees of $10,000 and his healthcare.I emigrated to this country alone at the age of 28 with 2 suitcases and $100. I did not speak very good English.Now I work as an Engineer.My husband is a licensed Architect. He is self-employed. When he decided to start his own business I supported him fully. Even if it meant that the responsibility of providing stable income and health insurance for the family fell on me. I fulfilled this responsibility for 15 years. One would think that a healthy man in his prime (he is 56 years old) would find it demeaning to be finically supported by a women he does not want anymore. Especially if a man was born in this country, educated here and has a professional degree of an Architect. And a woman is an former emigrant who achieved everything by herself with nobody to help her. How can a law be so unfair?
01:59 PM on 06/06/2011
You as a woman are just experiencing what men have been experiencing for decades, and still experience in disproportionate numbers compared to women.

As more and more women are forced to pay alimony, more and more states will revise their alimony laws to be more fair. You can take that to the bank.
04:44 PM on 07/02/2011
Statistically speaking, men pay 96% of all alimony.
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SophiavanBuren
Author of ILLUMINATION
07:55 PM on 05/27/2011
I've been paying child support to my ex husband for 7 years. I am not a CEO and don't have an extraordinary salary. I am what might be defined as middle class.

Out of necessity, I became the breadwinner and my ex became the primary physical custodian. (I was a stay-at-home mom for about 8 years before we seperated) The reality is that couples, married or divorced, have to decide how to manage a family physically AND financially. When it comes down to it, who really cares who does what, as long as both parenting roles are filled.

My ex shuttles the kids to afternoon sports events and oversees homework, which is a pretty hard and thankless job, and I actually don't mind handing over the reigns of what are traditional "motherhood" responsibilities. I am for all intents and purposes, the "divorced dad".

What is sad, is how a woman is percieved when she works and pays child support to the father instead of being primary custodian. The stigma is, when woman who does not have her kids full time, she is less of a parent. It is often assumed she is neglegent or selfish, that she somehow "abandoned" her children.

We strive for equality, but can we truly get our minds around what that means for families after divorce?

Read my article, "When Mommy Has to Man Up"
http://bit.ly/jVshB3
04:45 PM on 07/02/2011
Women don't strive for equality, they strive for privileges and entitlements.
07:00 AM on 07/03/2011
With your toxic generalizations about women in post after post, one shudders to think what a mess you're making of your daughters' self esteem and self image.
01:47 PM on 05/26/2011
If you play you will pay. Inevitably, that's the way it always breaks down. The gender is insignificant. Don't believe that there is such a thing as no fault either. If "it" gets in the the court records and is bad the judge WILL reward the chaste partner.
01:40 PM on 05/26/2011
"Women argue even if they are the CEO of their own company, for example, they are still often the CEO of the house as well."

which is why they're hell to live with--
04:59 PM on 05/26/2011
Indeed! My ex is an executive who worked 12 hour days whilst I took care of the kids, house, her errands, and worked part-time. After many years at her high-stress job, she just couldn't shut off work mode. During the last year of our marriage, I felt more like an employee than a spouse. Instead of getting, "Thanks for picking up my dry cleaning, etc.", I'd get, "Why isn't this done?" And she wonders why she's alone.
09:09 PM on 06/01/2011
similar to the story with my wife. We stayed together, but not before I ran away for some months, she quit her job and started showing me respect and consideration.
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11:00 AM on 05/26/2011
I don't believe this article. If a man is married to someone who is making that much money and they get to stay home and play Mom, why would they want a divorce?
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irishdoc
It's not me..it's you. Really
01:24 PM on 05/26/2011
There not the ones filing for the divorce. In most cases it's the woman.
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12:50 AM on 05/27/2011
Then they deserve half.

Why is divorce so expensive?

Because it's worth it.
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Tigerama
Sarcastiest, Irishest, Gay Veteranest Human Alive
07:48 AM on 05/26/2011
What the...so now we're just putting swear words in headlines? I keep thinking the standards can't drop anymore around here, but here we are.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
ManwithaParachute
Not Seeking Your Approval
05:13 AM on 05/26/2011
If I had to do it all over again, I would look for a woman raised by a widower or a man who has custody. Call me crazy but, the bulk of men AND women have been raised by women and the results seem to have most members of the opposite sex dissatisfied. Women raised by a custodial male parent seem to be independent, accountable, and highly functional in team activities. Seems like marriages and families would be more functional if the two base units were INDEPENDENT, ACCOUNTABLE, and TEAM-ORIENTED.
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reading2009
Down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass
03:21 AM on 05/26/2011
Why are all the angry posters here men? Sure seems like they're the ones angry about paying a spouse, not the women.
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Ed Baker
Militant Moderate
08:30 AM on 05/26/2011
Perhaps because over 90% of all alimony is paid by men.
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reading2009
Down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass
12:18 PM on 05/26/2011
yeah, but it's an article about women. And you are not truly being realistic, reading the rest of your posts. But go ahead. Sexism is alive and well.

Just FYI, I don't think the women in the above article are correct.
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Artos
Down with Tyrants
02:59 PM on 05/26/2011
How old are you? Just asking? Were you around during the 60s and 70s? Let me just recall for you the big issue of those times in one word. Equality. We could split hairs and get really general here I suppose and try to say that reverse alimony or manimony isn't fair due to the fact that men have always made more money than women. On the average that may be true or was once true. Even then though that wasn't true in all cases. Each case is unique to itself. Some men are and were never equally responsible on all levels in past times and some still aren't today. But what about those that are? The question is, Should they be held to the same standard just because during a divorce, it is easy to use a generalization to support ones desire not to have to pay support. The way I see it this should never be a generalized argument and each case handled separately. Unfortunately whenever men and women go to court in a divorce, the judges are usually older men who saw life in a very narrow conservative way. Their idea is that women are all helpless and in addition they see women in the old fashioned way, as being better off kept at home caring for the kids. Thus they usually will allow alimony for the woman as a natural course of business, and it seems also that in their view the man is less apt to get in trouble if he is kept hard at work and making money so that society won't be made responsible for his whelps. It think that there is always a basic philosophy such as this at work in their decision making. Else why would this have been the standard for all these many years. The problem becomes that in a world that has supposedly changed and one in which women worked hard to get this equality, it also becomes a matter of practicing what was preached, to the letter. This requires the old adage of What has been good for the goose, should also be good for the gander. If it isn't, then there really is no equality in fact. This I suppose is why some are angry.
03:14 PM on 05/26/2011
Good point! Finally someone who offers a point of view without throwing tantrums or calling other people names. Bravo!
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irishdoc
It's not me..it's you. Really
10:04 PM on 05/25/2011
I am one of these women who is currently paying her ex alimony and I do find it very frustrating. I spent the majority of the marriage working the second shift in terms of housework and childcare. And, I was the caretaker for him until his alcoholism became completely uncontrollable. Leaving was one of the hardest decisions I have ever made, but after multiple failed rehab attempts and several episodes of violence, there was no other choice.
I am bitter because my alimony allows him to continue on a horrible path of alcoholism and I fear for my child if he continues this path. I'm bitter because as my child's custodial parent, I see directly how he is taking not just money from me, but from her as well. I am saddened that as she gets older and we discuss domestic violence, I will have to explain to her how my abuser ( her father) was rewarded for his abuse by the courts and not punished. Lastly I am bitter that when my alimony ends and he self-destructs, she will be old enough to witness it and be harmed by it. Without alimony he would succeed or fail on his own merits, and by the time she would be affected he would have either gotten on his feet, or gotten out of the picture. If his fate is to crash and burn, alimony is making it a slow motion train wreck with our daughter as a passenger.
12:01 AM on 05/26/2011
Sorry for this painful situation, Irish. I know the pain of loving those with addiction, and I know the pain of leaving them. Peace to you and your daughter, and hopes that your ex-husband might find sobriety, despite seemingly long odds.
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Ed Baker
Militant Moderate
08:35 AM on 05/26/2011
I don't think any able bodied adult should be supported by anything but his or HER own work.

Please talk to a psychologist before you have the discussion with your daughter. It's generally not a good idea to berate the other parent, no matter how bad the situation is. The child knows their parents shortcomings - she knows yours too. Running her dad down will only make her feel badly about herself, and resent you for making her feel that way. It's not constructive. Vent your anger at your ex elsewhere.

But let's take the feminist argument about your situation - it must have been your working all the time that drove him to drink, and he stayed home and got drunk and took care of answering the telephone at home, so you should pay him alimony for the rest of his life. :)

Feel fortunate that the judge didn't give him lifetime alimony or that you don't live in a state like MA that allows it.
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Jack Davies
orange rabblerousing radical moderate!
09:09 AM on 05/26/2011
While I appreciate the sincere and caring tone of your post, I have to take great issue with your comment about able bodied people being supported by their own work.

As a stay-at-home dad (who also scrapes a bit of extra cash from sidework to make ends meet), I do not have the luxury or privilege or ability to also work a job. Parenting IS a job, and last I heard, it was a very important one. it also happens to take up most of my waking day, as well as a good chunk of what should be my sleeping night. I should also get a job on the side? Sorry, my wife is making enough.

In a society constantly weighted down by the issues caused by so many kids not getting enough parenting, you would think alimony was solid idea.
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irishdoc
It's not me..it's you. Really
01:52 PM on 05/26/2011
She is currently in therapy now which I think is good for her. However, there is still a lot she is going to have to learn whether it is pretty or not. She has to learn, at a young age, when to not get in a car with him. She has to have her own cell phone, at an age that is so much younger than I thought she would. Right now when he showed up drunk to pick her up from pre school, it was her teachers who called the authorities. At some point though she is going to have to call them herself.
I come from divorced parents, and one of the things my mom did when I was 16 was give me the divorce papers and filings. I learned a lot about both of them. Some of which I knew, and some I didn't. My father paid a whole lot more money than I thought he did for my care. That made me appreciate him more. But my stepmother, was actually my mother's best friend, saw all he pictures of her and my mom at their graduation. And that made me dislike him and my step mother. But the history of their divorce is the history of my childhood, since it was me who labored under the back and forth of the visitation schedule. I have a right to know, when I was angry about the schedule, who wanted it that way and who didn't.
08:42 PM on 05/25/2011
Good article. I bet I don't see any comments from the usual women on this site who always jump on stories about men not wanting to pay alimony. I bet we don't hear from them this time since the issue is about women who don't wanna pay alimony. Guess equality for them is only when a man is obligated to pay support and not vice versa!
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reading2009
Down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass
03:22 AM on 05/26/2011
There's plenty of men right here whining about alimony? Where's the gender INequality? Seems to me to be pretty equal in this case.
09:06 AM on 05/26/2011
Well, many people aren't going to like this (Mostly Women), but there is the simple FACT that men and women are NOT equal. I am not saying that men are better than women or women are better than men, but they are definitely not equal and never will be.
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reading2009
Down the rabbit hole and through the looking glass
12:06 PM on 05/26/2011
First, you're wrong. Second, probably because you have some wrong headed idea that equal means identical. Further, your point demonstrates, at best, fuzzy logic.
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Artos
Down with Tyrants
03:07 PM on 05/26/2011
There are two things that can make a person equal, physical strength and ability to fight with or without a weapon or brains. Women may not have physical strength equal to a mans, but train them well enough with a weapon like a gun (the great equalizer) and things are different. Brains come in two types, Intelligence and cunning. Cunning being the intelligence manifested as evil. I think in that department men and women are equally capable.
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Ed Baker
Militant Moderate
05:31 PM on 05/25/2011
Spousal support is a joke, no matter what gender is collecting it. If you take a break from your career to raise your kids - that's your choice and you deal with the consequences. Both my partner and I worked all the while we raised our kids. If he had asked me to become a Mr. Mom - I would have told him to forget that idea, and I think he would have said the same to me.

Spousal support is for lazy spouses who want to play martyr and say they could have been CEO of IBM if it weren't for their spouse.

We raised two children and worked very demanding careers. It can be done, and life is quite good - even working 60+ hours a week. Parenting and housekeeping are not full time jobs.
07:22 PM on 05/25/2011
You made your decision to leave the rearing of your children mostly to other people, and that may have been fine for you; but parents who choose to raise their children themselves--particularly before the children enter school--make an equally valid choice. The parent who stays home, regardless of gender, loses those years of direct income, saving for retirement, building up Social Security benefits, and moving up the career ladder, and that parent deserves some financial compensation for that. Another point to consider is that not all couples can afford day care, so that's why one parent stays home. For many low earners, it just doesn't pay to work unless day care is subsidized, especially for more than one child. Those parents too deserve some financial cushion if the couple divorces.
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Ed Baker
Militant Moderate
11:06 PM on 05/25/2011
I don't know how many kids you have - but we had two. When they were infants and toddlers, our parents supervised them during the day, and we both worked at home at night and did all the housework. When they were school age, we did the same thing with grandparents watching them after school until we got home. When they were older still, they watched themselves after school until we came home. Then they went to college. What could possibly take so much time? I wonder what people do with all of their time.

I'd buy your trade off plan if both parties agreed to it - which every non-working spouse always says happened, and then the working one says it didn't happen that way - so why not outline the agreement in a document?

Otherwise - I'd be inclined to say that there was no such agreement. What person would agree to pay spousal support upfront? That just doesn't make sense. If something doesn't make sense, it's probably not true.
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Artos
Down with Tyrants
03:17 PM on 05/26/2011
I agree to a point on the compensation issue. First of all there should be considerations, such as just how much effort was really put into those duties and for how long. things like loyalty and faithfulness should also be a consideration. These things should make a difference in the decision to grant alimony. But in addition there should be a structural limitation. For example, if the wife had had a formal college education she should be provided with any funds necessary to become updated in her education, so that she can then provide for her own support. There should not be an allowance made to say that she has the right to just remain a stay at home mom. A person, man or woman should have to earn their own way once divorced, as soon as they are able. Only the child should still be getting support. Neither a man or a Woman is entitled to have a free ride through life at the expense of a former mate regardless of how loyal or devoted they once were in the marriage. The only exception to that would be if the former mate was of the mindset that they were willing to continue being generous. Other wise not.
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mimi66
08:12 PM on 05/25/2011
Yes, not really sure how you can say that you are even being a parent working 60 plus hours a week. The kids are basically asleep when you are home. I am not saying you need to be home full time, but parenting and housekeeping are full time jobs. So, if you aren't doing it, you are hiring somebody else to] do it. Which is your choice, but don't knock other people's choices to raise their own kids. I generally don't agree with a ton of spousal support if the kids are older and in school, but I know myself that even with both of us working 35-40 hours a week at best (having decided to equally pare down) and having a nanny and housekeeper, there is still alot to be done, including time spent hanging out with our kids. The kids shouldn't suffer because the parents are divorcing and they have every right to enjoy the same life they did before the split.
Guest211
Stars Exploded to Make Me
08:27 PM on 05/25/2011
Re; "The kids shouldn't suffer because the parents are divorcing and they have every right to enjoy the same life they did before the split."

I'm curious. How would you define such?
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Ed Baker
Militant Moderate
11:10 PM on 05/25/2011
So place the kids with the person who can provide them with that same life unless there is some kind of abuse or other factor.

Adults dependent on other adults is just plain laziness. If the guy was a janitor and married a nuero-surgeon, should he live like a nuero-surgeon's spouse after the divorce - even though he hasn't the talent of a nuero-surgeon? I don't think so. Of course he'll whine and say - Oh I could have been the CEO of Janitor.com or whatever, that comes under "woulda coulda shoulda." In other words - BS.

The money should stay with the one who EARNS it.
Guest211
Stars Exploded to Make Me
05:19 PM on 05/25/2011
Frequently, authors on this page comment on each others stories.

I'll be interested to see: 1) To what degree author comments matriculate and 2) What these authors have to say.

Waiting....
Califishing
I work smart
05:13 PM on 05/25/2011
No woman will ever love a man as much as she loves money. That's the bottom line...Think about it. At break up how many women do you hear say "I just want out".. What's his is ours and what's hers is hers..
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Pete Mojica
05:56 PM on 05/25/2011
SPOT ON!!
11:08 PM on 05/25/2011
Not true, not all women are the same.
I lost everything to the man I was with. I have two chairs and and a desk. 3 plates, 3 forks, a pan and a pot and other odd's and end's purchased from second hand stores. What he didn't take he broke. And until I can get back on my feet and on top of the bills he also left me with I live like this.
I dont hate all men because of this. I dont define all men by the poor choice I made in a mate and I would be nice if we could all not generalize... there are nasty individuals in both genders, but that does not define the gender, just that sorry individual.