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Joseph Nye

Joseph Nye

Posted: January 6, 2011 03:08 PM

China and the US

What's Your Reaction:

Gideon Rachman, a good writer for the Financial Times, has an article in the current issue of Foreign Policy entitled "American Decline: This Time It's Real." In his words, "the wolf did arrive -- and China is the wolf." He cites Goldman Sachs prediction that by 2027, the Chinese economy will be larger than the American economy, and says that if Washington has to scale down its presence in the Pacific for budgetary reasons, American allies will start to desert us.

But as I argue in my new book The Future of Power (coming out on February 1), even if China's GDP passes that of the United States around 2030, the two economies will be equivalent in size but not in composition. In per capita income, (which is a better measure of the sophistication of an economy), China will not pass the US until decades later. And the United States is also well ahead of China in military and economic power and will remain so.

Even if Rachman is wrong -- as I believe -- his message can be helpful if it wakes us to make some necessary reforms in deficit reduction and improving K-12 education. But there is also a danger in exaggerating China's progress. (A 2009 Pew poll shows that 44% of Americans held the wildly erroneous view that China is the world's leading economy.)

If such views creates hubris among Chinese officials and fears in American officials, it can lead to policies that create unnecessary conflict. Managing the complex relationship with China will be difficult enough without such faulty projections. I will spend next week in China and India, and will post some of my observations after I return.

 
 
 
 
 
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drjasonmd
Shalom, compa!
03:46 PM on 01/09/2011
"In per capita income, (which is a better measure of the sophistication of an economy), China will not pass the US until decades later."

Using per capita income as a measure of an economy is not very sophisticated either, especially if one considers the fact that the US dollar is only used in one country in the comparison. After all, a family living on $40K per year in China will have a much higher standard of living than a family with the same income in the US.

A better measure would be to use a calculation similar to the way the CPI is calculated and determine the per capita purchasing power.
10:59 AM on 01/08/2011
DAE's comment is intelligent, reasoned, and right on the mark. Couldn't have said it better.

It's only the US that sees China's rise as a competition. Nobody else does that; mostly, they see it as another huge market, and that's true even in Asia. The US government is busy competing with, limiting, encircling, containing and bashing, China, while China is just trying to grow and have a better home for its people.

The Chinese are not in any way hegemonic or imperialistic. They want Hong Kong, Taiwan, and a few islands that have always been theirs, and that's it. China will never invade anybody. To the Chinese, any kind of conflict is a loss - the result of an inability to negotiate well. But the US enjoys conflict, and even seeks it out. Constant provocations, like the 'civilian' ship spying only 6 miles off China's Hainan Island.

China is one of many countries whose GDP is climbing rapidly, and good for all of them. Who cares who is bigger? That's juvenile "king of the hill" stuff.

Here is something you might enjoy, an editorial titled "Let's Meet Some Real People" (in China):

http://www.bearcanada.com/travel/realpeople.html

And just for fun, here's "What's Good For the Goose": it's a tongue-in-cheek editorial about what China's foreign policy would be like if it copied the US.

http://www.bearcanada.com/china/thegoose.html
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drjasonmd
Shalom, compa!
04:25 PM on 01/09/2011
Great blog! Thanks for the links. I really enjoyed going through the photos and reading about each individual.

What line of work do you do that allows you to travel so much and meet so many interesting people? More importantly, how do I get into that line of work?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
DAE
01:44 AM on 01/08/2011
Comments here miss the point.. People see our relationship with China only though the skewered lens of our need and desire to seek world domination. China is therefore seen as our rival. Either we win or they win. We lose or they lose. But this perspective is a hold over from previous generations when the European powers vied with one another for colonies as they divided up the world including China and later when the US and the Soviet Union vied for ideological victory in the Cold War. China does not fit either pattern. Unlike the European colonial powers, the US or the Soviet Union, China does not seek worldwide hegemony. What does China want? First, it wants to maintain and defend its sovereignty, which was trampled upon for over 100 years by the colonial powers including the US and Japan. Second, it wants to modernize and industrialize in order to increase the wealth and well being of its immense population. Third, it wants to converse its environment and develop clean alternative energy sources. This is all possible only if China engages with the world beyond its borders through trade and other bilateral relations. China does not have to be managed or intimidated. It needs to be treated for what it is, an ancient country with a profound heritage that is in charge of its own destiny and developing according to its own internal dynamic. China can be understood only through the prism of its own history, not ours.
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drjasonmd
Shalom, compa!
03:55 PM on 01/09/2011
It's too different ways of thinking. A few tens of thousands of years ago in the fertile crescent, some people coming out of Africa came to a crossroads. One group turned left, the other right. They're just now bumping into each other for the first time in millennia. While they were apart from each other, they encountered different obstacles to progress and developed different systems for dealing with those obstacles.

The western way of stimulating progress worked well for them until they ran out of new lands to conquer. It will take time for the mindset to change, but nothing changes one's mindset better than reality.
04:51 PM on 01/07/2011
Take China out of the picture for a moment, the American decline is real. The PEW research poll didn't only show that Americans (along with most developed euro nations) misidentifying China as the leading economic power, it also showed that the majority of Americans believing that their children will lead a worse life then they do. I think that is much more of significant symptom of a declining nation. The traditional American dream: owning 2 cars, a home, a dog, a family, etc., that is actually becoming more and more difficult to attain. Today the average middle class in America cannot afford to buy a house and provide their kids with good education without the mother working and incurring serious debt.

The question is how far will America decline in terms of standards of living. I think this has little to do with China or foreign countries, but a lot more to do with domestic policies pertaining to growth and innovation.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
den1953
The best politicians are for free!
11:31 AM on 01/07/2011
How much leverage will come with the Chinese competition is the question, the owing of massive interest on borrowed money is a far greater danger then GDP.......
HUFFPOST PUNDIT
lodger16x
05:27 AM on 01/07/2011
The income of Americans has continued to skew toward the top 1% for 30 years. Doesn't that distort per capita numbers? What about median income?
I agree China is far behind in economic output and military terms, and the threat is exaggerated. But since China is not the great threat to America, could American empire eat itself? It seems to be trying.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Aarontastic
"Mr. Cain instead decided to try to provide her wi
02:40 AM on 01/07/2011
The narrative of the decline of empire is a very addictive one, in a melodramatic sort of way. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion: sort of horrifying to witness, but you can't look away--you just keep watching and making predictions about whether or not there will be survivors, or what the car will look like.

The average citizen is well-informed enough to understand that the United States is not what it once was. Just by dint of living for a few decades, one can see that American power and prestige have been steadily declining since the fall of the USSR. We live in a different world now, and it is a world that is catching up to us in every respect.

Nowhere else is this more true of course, than in Asia, and China in particular. Economically, in terms of GDP, they are on track to surpass us. India will follow, and perhaps Europe, Russia, and even Brazil. In any case, they will all make gains in catching up--but so what? Yes, it is decline in the strictest sense, but this does not necessarily mean an end to American prosperity or importance in the world. Far from it, in fact. The world is changing from a unipolar one to a multi-polar one, but Americans should keep in mind that this country will always remain an important and powerful one, so they need not fear the rise of China, or their relative decline.
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AvgJoeBlow
We are smarter than any of us.
07:03 AM on 01/07/2011
Particularly if you are wealthy -AJB
02:13 AM on 01/07/2011
This is why it is important that the RMB does not appreciate vs the dollar. Were the RMB to double in value, Chinese GDP would double in value in dollar terms. A devaluation would make a Chinese economy that is twice as large with people twice as rich.
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AvgJoeBlow
We are smarter than any of us.
07:05 AM on 01/07/2011
Exactly, at this point if we are holding our own against China and all the IOU's they hold, its an accounting trick. -AJB
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drjasonmd
Shalom, compa!
03:59 PM on 01/09/2011
It's already undervalued as it is. Who knows, maybe they've already passed you.

Of course, the way the figures are calculated to determine the size of an economy are useless anyway. If you take financial transactions out of the formula, the US isn't nearly as big as people think. When you consider that the manufacturing infrastructure is now in China, it makes one wonder how they come with these numbers at all.
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basenji
Dog lover
01:43 AM on 01/07/2011
Per capita income can work to their advantage, it's an untapped market if they can even introduce baby step progress to the have-nots and turn them into consumers. Our problem is we don't lift a finger for ours.

Funny money on Wall Street turning a handful to fat cats does not make a strong economy. One doesn't need a degree in economics to have common sense.
10:41 PM on 01/06/2011
China is mindful of their deficiency in per capita income and has been for quite some time. Hence, they
have their " one child " policy. So, even in this regard, they may be catching up fast. China's military power
is not in the same league as the U.S. but that doesn't mean much since we are unable to win decisively
in Iraq and Afghanistan after all these years. How do we measure " military power " then ?
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drjasonmd
Shalom, compa!
04:06 PM on 01/09/2011
They measure it in numbers of ships and planes and troops, etc. However, it's a silly measure because it doesn't take into account the fact that the defender always has the advantage. It takes far fewer planes, troops, ships and fuel to defend your homeland than it does to deploy them halfway around the world to attack another country. Just maintaining the supply lines across the Pacific would be a monumental task.

With the US military deployed all over the world trying to subdue developing nations, it's safe to say that the Chinese military is more powerful at accomplishing its mission (defending China). A lot has been said of US military power, but people fail to take into account that they haven't won a war since 1945 and that was against such powerhouses as Vietnam, Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. Considering that China has shown no historical tendencies to try and rule the world, I'd say they have the military advantage. When you consider that both countries are nuclear armed, it's a moot point anyway since any conflict would result in a stalemate.
yappnmutt
humping legs for liberty
09:52 PM on 01/06/2011
part 2

its better to look at china from a long, long term perspective. they ruled the world economically far longer and by a wider margin than any other empire in the history of the world but have had a two hundred year hiatus from that status. they are coming back, with a long memory and the same fervor they have exhibited throughout their history.
yappnmutt
humping legs for liberty
09:52 PM on 01/06/2011
it is correct that the usa will still have a higher per capita income china when the the two economies reach parity in nominal terms but there are two variables that must be considered. one is purchasing power, the intrinsic value of the currency. the chinese yuan will likely buy more than the dollar so the real gap will be less than it is ion noimnal terms . the other is the fact that an economy that is larger than the economy of the usa , in spite the difference in per capita income, is still larger than the us economy and therefore commands more influence and power in the world.

as far as military power, the chinese have shown no interest in any areas outside their immediate geographical strategic interests. they have no interest in the atlantic ocean or the mediterranean sea or even the southern or eastern(their perspective) pacific. the indian ocean is even a far away place for them. their land interests, militarily, have been confined to their borders. they have allied with russia.so what if the usa controls the rest of the world. as long as china can obtain what resources it needs there will be no conflict. if its borders are threatened it can respond effectively. if its resources are threatened the usa is its only viable adversary and it will have to mobilize a force to a place thousands of miles away against a population of 1.3 billion potential combatants.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TrekBear
10:01 AM on 01/07/2011
Unless the yuan is allowed to float more or less freely against other currencies, its value, in nominal and real terms, will continue to be distorted. China remains a merchantilist economy - similar to Eurpoe and the US in the 19th century. Innovation is not a strong or prominent factor in Chinese thinking and way of life; it will be difficult for that country to adapt, especially as raw materials become scarcer.
08:05 PM on 01/06/2011
America is behind because it looked at the bottom line to-morrow and not ten years from now. Regulations were delayed by corporate interests and Americans themselves became an economic burden. This is the message of the Republicans and it makes the rich richer and the poor pooer. The Chinee have always taken a long term view of everything and still do. Thye are building windmills and solar panels and America is drilling like sarah Palin wants. China is into population control and America is into octo mom. China is into eeducation and discipline and Americns can't find America on the map (literally). The decline began with Nixon and was the modus operandi of reagan. America voted for its own decline.
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Chopin
Multiply the truth. Speak truth through power.
01:43 PM on 01/07/2011
America's last half-century decline began with the CIA inspired Bay of Pigs disaster (1961), precipitating JFK's firing of 3 CIA chiefs, followed by JFK's assass'nation (1963), which led to Vietnam War (1964), and Nixon's rise into presidency (1968), that took fateful turn to sever USDollar's link with gold and cast the USDollar paper currency adrift (1971) as commodity on global currency markets because French demand by DeGaulle to exchange their Dollar holdings for Fort Knox gold cannot be met. That set the monetary stage as prelude to enable the first wave of a multi-wave, multi-crest credit bubble economy that started with Reagan's "you ain't seen nothing yet" (1980) mass wealth transfer upwards to corporate plutocratic class accompanied with chit pouring downwards on middleclass, enabled by Greenspan's "irrational exuberance" for boundless cheap credit to fuel Wall Street and militaristic global empire expansion. Meanwhile Clinton hollowed out American manufacturing based economy with NAFTA (1994) and replaced it with bifurcated serf-based service economy and "making things up" Wall Street speculative credit bubble economy, accompanied with "giant sucking sound" on the outsourcing way out. Then in came neocon megalomania and decade-long (2001-2010) endless unmitigated colonial imperial misadventures, fueling "shock and awe" militarism and mercenary vigilantism on massive national public debt.

What has China's rise in economic power got to do with it? NOTHING. This societal and national downward spiral is self-induced, enabled and reinforced by the people's silent complicity.
02:34 PM on 01/07/2011
Chopin - China's rise to economic power is due to three things. a) The American government allowed corporations to move to China and use almost slave labor and virtually no laws re pollution. This made it possible to produce anything from blue jeans to toasters for a fraction of the cost and ship it to America. It had the same brand name but it didn't have the quality. But Americans were thrilled to have something formerly made in America for so little money. Of course the true cost was millions of unemployed people who didn't have a job, didn't pay taxes for schools etc. and used emergency roooms for health care - very very expensive. Essentially the americans were paying a high price for what they created and produced previously. But the corporations were doing well - big dividends for shareholders. The downward spiral of America is self induced - and it is the need for more stuff and the factories producing the stuff are located in America. No American greed no incredible rise of China which had the smarts to control its population and let the corporations take advantage of an incredibly cheap labor market. China has just begun moving to high end products and now have an internal market which is independent of the American market. For now American's will continue to buy from China the lowend stuff because so many Americans are now living in the street. America had the best workers in the world. And kicked
03:03 PM on 01/07/2011
Hello Chopin. I came to this comment through a back door. I Googled JFK assas'sin'ation+PTSS for research I am doing and came up with a comment of yours on a two year old thread for which I Fanned you.

Thank you for your critical thinking. Such a sadly lost art.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
realitytrumpsbull
two 'alves of coconut!
07:51 PM on 01/06/2011
I think it's good that a goodly chunk of Con Me-nomix is moving overseas. I like the idea that Americans will be seen as more than wage productivity units on somebody's spreadsheet. Moguls will do as they will do, and they will recreate the magical business model anywhere that local governments let them do that. Problem is when all that stuff starts going runaway, things get a little....fascist, sometimes, and that's where the people have to sort of intervene a little, and maybe help em pack and see em off at the dock and wish em bon voyage and all that jazz. The people of the world are more than investment vehicles, credit scores, and so forth, and for a while here in the US, you sort of wonder, at least I do, if the various powers-that-be kind of forgot the human element, there.
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07:02 PM on 01/06/2011
America's decline is real for me, I don't have a job. If they stopped exporting our jobs overseas and used tariffs, like the rest of the world does (including China), I might have a job.