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The NRA Knows Corruption. Just Ask Jack Abramoff.

Posted: 10/04/11 08:21 AM ET

Earlier this month, the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence launched www.MeetTheNRA.org, a website that shines a light on the unsavory conduct of the 76 members of the National Rifle Association (NRA) Board of Directors. The site allows them to comment on the issues of the day in their own words, and opens a virtual Pandora's box of racism, misogyny, homophobia, anti-immigrant animus, religious bigotry, anti-environmentalism, insurrectionism, and other troubling ideology. It also untangles the political ties/connections of the gun lobby's leaders. Previously, I wrote about the link between NRA board members and some of the most brutal human rights abusers on the planet. But one doesn't have to leave the United States -- or even our nation's capital -- to encounter their unscrupulous associations.

On September 23, NRA CEO Wayne LaPierre appeared at the Florida Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) to discuss his organization's opposition to the presidency of Barack Obama. In his remarks, LaPierre said, "The president will offer the Second Amendment lip service and hit the campaign trail saying he's actually been good for the Second Amendment, but it's a big, fat, stinkin' lie, just like all the other lies that have come out of this corrupt administration. It's all part of a massive Obama conspiracy to deceive voters and hide his true intentions to destroy the Second Amendment in our country."

In fairness, when LaPierre speaks of corruption and conspiracy, he knows what he's talking about. After all, two high-profile and powerful members of the NRA Board of Directors -- U.S. Rep. Don Young (R-AK) and Americans for Tax Reform founder Grover Norquist -- were involved in the biggest American political corruption scandal of the last decade: the criminal schemes of Republican lobbyist Jack Abramoff.

In 2006, Abramoff was convicted of mail fraud and conspiracy charges for his role in a pay-to-play lobbying scheme that involved the illegal trading of gifts to politicians in exchange for votes that favored his clients' interests. Abramoff also defrauded his clients by overcharging them millions of dollars in lobbying fees. By the time the entire house of cards had fallen, 12 others were convicted of crimes for their involvement with Abramoff's schemes, including U.S. Rep. Bob Ney (R-OH), who took bribes.

Ney wasn't the only Member of Congress who benefited from Abramoff's largesse. U.S. Representative and NRA board member Don Young (R-AK) -- who is frequently featured on the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) list of the most corrupt politicians in Washington -- received donations for his Midnight Sun Political Action Committee from Abramoff clients. He also used Abramoff's lavish MCI Center Skybox in 2000 to host fundraisers on two separate occasions. The use of the Skybox was not reported to the Federal Election Commission (FEC) until after Abramoff was investigated and indicted for wire fraud.

It makes perfect sense that Abramoff would favor Young. The congressman was a cheerleader for the government of the Northern Mariana Islands -- a U.S. commonwealth -- during a period when that government was one of Abramoff's biggest clients (paying him over $9 million total). Abramoff and Young were apparently unconcerned about a 1998 Department of Interior report that documented widespread human rights abuses associated with a booming sweatshop industry on the islands (clothing made on the islands carries a "Made in USA" label). The report found that women and children immigrant workers were subjected to forced abortions, sex slavery, and substandard pay and working conditions.

Nonetheless, Young repeatedly used his position as chair of the House Resources Committee to oppose applying U.S. labor and immigration laws to the islands. In 1995 and again in 2000, Young allowed bills that would have improved working conditions on the Mariana Islands (which were unanimously passed by the U.S. Senate) to die in committee. Abramoff took credit for the failure of the 2000 reform bill, saying "We then stopped it cold in the House." During one 25-month period, Abramoff employees had over 120 contacts with Young or his staff concerning the Northern Mariana Islands. When term limits forced Young to step down as chair of the House Resources Committee, Abramoff wrote the Northern Mariana Island's anti-reform governor to say, "The loss of Chairman Young's authority cannot easily be measured -- or replaced ... We have lost major institutional memory and friendship."

Mark Zachares, who worked as an aide for Young before pleading guilty to conspiracy as part of the Abramoff scandal, served as the Mariana Islands' Secretary of Labor and Immigration from 1998 to 2002 -- the same time that Young was blocking reform on the islands. And Zachares was not the only Young aide to be convicted of a crime for involvement in the Abramoff scandal. Fraser Verrusio, hired by Young to work on the House Transportation Committee, was convicted of accepting an illegal gratuity and other crimes in February 2011.

Then there is NRA board member Grover Norquist, who MSNBC host Lawrence O'Donnell described as "the most powerful man in America who does not sleep in the White House." According to Mark Salter, a top aide to U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), "By his own admission, Grover [Norquist] couldn't be any closer to [Jack] Abramoff if they moved to Massachusetts and got married." While Norquist is best known today for taking political hostages to promote a radical anti-tax agenda, his relationship with Abramoff dates way back to 1981, when he served as campaign manager for the corrupt lobbyist's successful campaign to become chairman of the National College Republicans.

In 1995, Norquist and then-House Majority Whip Tom DeLay (R-TX) -- who has since been convicted of money laundering -- founded the "K Street Project." The goal of the project was to facilitate the hiring of Republican staffers at top lobbying firms and then reward the firms by offering access to influential GOP officials (the explicit "pay-to-play" nature of the project is now illegal under federal law). The K Street Project has also been linked to Abramoff, who followed its model of hiring former Republican staffers to improve his access on Capitol Hill. As Fox News political analyst Juan Williams commented, "Abramoff is in some ways the face of how lobbying and Congress became intertwined. He played by the GOP leadership rules."

Norquist wasn't shy about soliciting donations from Abramoff's clients for his organization Americans for Tax Reform (ATR). And Abramoff was more than happy to assist in this process. In one email to colleagues, Abramoff wrote, "I spoke this evening with Grover. He said that, if [the Choctaw Indian tribe] want the taxpayer movement, including him, involved on this issue and anything else which will come up over the course of the year or so, they need to become a major player with ATR. He recommended that they make a $50,000 contribution to ATR."

The quid pro quo was that Norquist used his tax-exempt ATR to help Abramoff funnel money from his clients to conservative causes (ATR kept a small cut of the funds). In 2006, the Senate Finance Committee concluded that, in doing so, ATR "appear[ed] to have perpetrated a fraud on...taxpayers" by "profit-seeking and private benefit behavior inconsistent with their tax-exempt status. And by virtue of the tax benefits, other taxpayers implicitly subsidized this behavior."

And curiously, like Don Young, Norquist was also involved in the Northern Mariana Islands. During the 1990s, Norquist promoted the islands as a positive example of free enterprise. In return, Abramoff charged the islands' government (his client) thousands of dollars for "discussions" with Norquist and Americans for Tax Reform staffers.

Corruption? Conspiracy? You have to wonder why Wayne LaPierre is spending so much time making up cockamamie tales about the Obama administration. The stories that can be told around the table at one of his NRA board meetings are infinitely more interesting...and real.

This is the second in a series of articles I have written profiling the rogues gallery that makes up the leadership of the National Rifle Association (NRA). Learn more at www.MeetTheNRA.org.

 

Follow Josh Horwitz on Twitter: www.twitter.com/CSGV

 
 
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ElmCreekSmith
If the truth hurts, it should.
03:43 PM on 10/09/2011
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Then, there is my personal favorite: Florida legislature candidate Eric Kaplan supported handgun registration, a ban on some firearms, and mandatory exams for handgun ownership. He received an “F†rating from the NRA Institute for Legislative Action, a true badge of honor in the antigun community. He chose a very dramatic way to show why certain people shouldn’t have guns. Kaplan fired several .38 slugs into the home of his opponent, Robert Starks (rated “A†by NRA-ILA) and wounded Stark’s wife, Judith. According to the Naples (Florida) Daily News (Associated Press), 10/13/97, Kaplan pleaded “no contest†to attempted second degree murder.

SANFORD – A former state legislative candidate who was to be retried Monday for shooting into the home of his political opponent and wounding the man’s wife instead pleaded no contest to attempted second-degree murder.†“Eric Kaplan, the Democratic challenger to Rep. Bob Starks, was accused of shooting the Republican lawmaker’s wife, Judith Starks, in the leg when he fired randomly into windows of the Starks’ Maitland home on Sept. 27, 1992.

What else do you have?

ECS
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ElmCreekSmith
If the truth hurts, it should.
03:43 PM on 10/09/2011
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Then there's George Soros. (Need I really say anything about his support for gun control?) In 1988, he was asked to join a takeover attempt of the French bank Société Générale. He declined to participate in the bid but later bought a number of shares in the company. French authorities began an investigation in 1989, and in 2002 a French court ruled that it was insider trading, a felony conviction as defined under French securities laws, and fined him $2.3 million, which was the amount that he made using the insider information.

Punitive damages were not sought because of the delay in bringing the case to trial. Soros denied any wrongdoing and said news of the takeover was public knowledge.[41]

His insider trading conviction was upheld by the highest court in France on June 14, 2006.[42] In December 2006, he appealed to the European Court of Human Rights on various grounds including that the 14-year delay in bringing the case to trial precluded a fair hearing.[43] Two other elements of his appeal were held to be admissible, allowing the case to proceed.[44] In October 2011, European Court of Human Rights rejected his appeal saying that Soros has been aware of the risk of breaking insider-trading laws.

Yep. An insider trading convicted felon. A corrupt financier.

(Continued)
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ElmCreekSmith
If the truth hurts, it should.
03:42 PM on 10/09/2011
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Democratic Congressman - (IL) Dan Rostenkowski said during a campaign, ""Do they want someone to fight gun control? I live in the district (Chicago) and I hear those guns going off. ... I am anti-gun."
Rostenkowski's long political career ended in 1994 after a two year investigation by the Justice Department. In a case led by future U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, Rostenkowski was indicted on corruption charges for his role in the House post office scandal. He was forced to step down from all Congressional leadership positions. In elections later that year, Rostenkowski lost his seat and retired from political life. Charges against Rostenkowski included keeping "ghost" employees on his payroll, using Congressional funds to buy gifts such as chairs and ashtrays for friends, and trading in officially purchased stamps for cash at the House post office.[7] While the stamps-for-cash allegation received the most media coverage, those charges were dismissed on the recommendation of the prosecutor.[8] In 1996, he pleaded guilty to reduced charges of mail fraud. He was fined and was sentenced to 17 months in prison, of which he served 15 at the federal prison in Oxford, Wisconsin, and the remaining 2 months at a half way house in Chicago.

That's two corrupt politicians, and I haven't even gotten a good start.

(Continued)
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ElmCreekSmith
If the truth hurts, it should.
03:40 PM on 10/09/2011
Do you really want to go there, Josh? Oh, well...

"Mario Biaggi (born October 26, 1917) is a former Democratic member of the U.S. Congress from the Bronx, who was elected to 10 terms. His career ended when he was convicted in two separate corruption trials and resigned from Congress in 1988 before facing expulsion.

Anti-gun Democratic Congressman - (NY) Mario Biaggi was sentenced to two-and-a-half years in prison and fined $500,000 for accepting an illegal gratuity and obstructing justice in 1987. He had accepted free vacations from former Brooklyn Democratic leader Meade Esposito in exchange for using his influence to help a ship-repair company that was a major client of Esposito's insurance agency.[3] The House Ethics Committee recommended that Biaggi be expelled — the most severe of penalties.

In 1988, Biaggi, who was about to be expelled from Congress,[4] resigned his seat after he was convicted a second time in federal court of 15 felony counts for obstruction of justice and accepting illegal gratuities, stemming from Biaggi's acceptance of bribes in exchange for federal construction contracts in the so-called Wedtech scandal.

Former New York Congressman Mario Biaggi said that only police officers should be allowed to have guns. Civilian Biaggi had to surrender two handguns after he was convicted of a felony in the Wedtech scandal.

(Continued)
06:00 PM on 10/07/2011
If it walks like a duck...

WASHINGTON - New documents obtained by CBS News show Attorney General Eric Holder was sent briefings on the controversial Fast and Furious operation as far back as July 2010. That directly contradicts his statement to Congress.

On May 3, 2011, Holder told a Judiciary Committee hearing, "I'm not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Yet internal Justice Department documents show that at least ten months before that hearing, Holder began receiving frequent memos discussing Fast and Furious.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20115038-10391695.html?tag=re1.channel

And gun control advocates will continue to act as apologists for the criminal actions of the Gov't. Their actions show they really don't care about the carnage caused by firearms but only in restricting them and attacking those who support firearms.
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05:51 PM on 10/07/2011
OpenSecrets.org
Gun$$NRA$GOP

If lawmakers are guilty of tiptoeing around gun control issues, it is because the NRA and other gun rights groups wield an enormous amount of influence in Washington. The source of that influence is money. Gun rights groups have given more than $17 million in individual, PAC and soft money contributions to federal candidates and party committees since 1989. Nearly $15 million, or 85 percent of the total, has gone to Republicans. The National Rifle Association is by far the gun rights lobby's biggest donor, having contributed more than $14 million over the past 15 years. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, contribute far less money than their rivals -- a total of nearly $1.7 million since 1989, of which 94 percent went to Democrats. The leading contributor among gun control advocates is the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, formerly known as Handgun Control, which has given $1.5 million over the past 15 years.

If gun rights groups have a substantial advantage in campaign contributions, they dominate gun control advocates in the area of lobbying. The NRA alone spent nearly $11 million lobbying elected and government officials from 1997 to 2003. But it wasn't the gun rights lobby's biggest spender. That was Gun Owners of America, which spent more than $18 million on lobbing over the same period. By contrast, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence spent under $2 million on lobbying from 1997 to 2003, and the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence spent $580,000.
05:57 PM on 10/07/2011
See. The proof is in their '(in) action regarding the criminal activities of the Gov't. They don't care about 'firearm violence'. Only restricting firearms and attacking the NRA.

But what DW has proven is that more people support the NRA than the Brady Campaign.
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08:04 PM on 10/07/2011
A certain group of people support the NRA, aside from Ted Nugent, it's the gun industry and ALEC corporate power including Koch Industries and the CATO Institute.

The NRA gun cult likes the tough-sounding slogan made up to assuage their fearfulness and feelings of inadequacy in an ever-changing world: The guys with the guns are the guys who make the rules.

But, as the NRA + ALEC reveal the true NRA belief is in the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, rules.

The gun cult is being used. Maybe several hundred thousand of them. They have been helpful to the NRA's political clout. But all along it was mostly the money the NRA gets from BIG DONORS. Although your $35 a year fee, or your lifetime membership is surely helpful.
06:39 PM on 10/07/2011
Do you think that maybe gun rights groups have more money to donate because they have more members? That's how democracy works, people get together, pool their resources and influence things.
05:32 PM on 10/07/2011
As the gun control advocates do everything they can to bury Fast and Furious, AZ Sheriff's are calling for more investigations:

Today ten Arizona Sheriffs demanded an independent investigation of Fast and Furious, a government operation that allowed more than 2,000 guns to cross the border into the hands of criminals in Mexico. In a news conference at the Arizona Peace Officers Memorial in Phoenix, the sheriffs called the ATF operation "unconscionable".

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20117470-10391695.html

Gun control advocates like those below don't really care about 'firearm crime', all they care about is restricting firearms and attacking the NRA.
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12:51 AM on 10/07/2011
Ted Nugent, NRA Board Member, spokesperson for the gun lobby appears on right-wing media. Here's one story, not for the squeamish or humane: (Others I reviewed could not possibly pass moderation muster.)

Ted Nugent Wants
"A Voodoo-Vermin Body Count"
September 01, 2011 by Matt Gertz
Washington Times columnist, Fox News regular, and National Rifle Association board member Ted Nugent is no stranger to violent rhetoric. But today's column seems to sets a new standard for depraved bloodthirst.
Nugent notes that the war in Afghanistan has cost the lives of more than 1,500 American soldiers, along with hundreds of billions of dollars. He comments than "Americans should demand to know specifically what we got for the lives and treasure." That seems like a reasonable statement... until Nugent lays out those specifics.

The rest of the story .... http://mediamatters.org/blog/201109010006
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Acebass
Progressive Liberal any questions?
05:50 AM on 10/07/2011
I destroyed ever record I ever owned of his.
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05:00 PM on 10/07/2011
Acebass: Hah! Good to see you. Some men grow up!
01:43 PM on 10/07/2011
The 'rest of the story'.. Bought and paid for by the Joyce Foundation and George Soros.

All the while ignoring the border agents that died due to 'Fast and Furious'. But that was all in the name of 'gun control' so it's OK.
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05:06 PM on 10/07/2011
The hypocrisy of the NRA is contemptible. The NRA aggressively supports private sales of lethal weapons: no oversight, no background checks -- No one knows how many guns, what type of guns are sold privately every day across America and right inside the thousands of gun shows, and elsewhere in any handy trunk.

Lethal weapons are sold privately every day with zero accountability.
NRA hypocrisy is contemptible.
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05:11 PM on 10/07/2011
Compare the corporate support of Charles and David Koch and the other supportive corporate billionaires in ALEC where the NRA has been an active participant for many years to the relatively very small Joyce Foundation and George Soros --
Forbes top named billionaires are the Koch brothers. Soros is way down on the list.
Koch funds CATO Institute and they were co-council on both gun cases before the Supreme Court: Heller and McDonald.

Were you attempting to say something?
09:13 AM on 10/06/2011
This is what the CSGV is trying to distract from:

Detty said he suspected the buyer was trafficking for a drug cartel. Tucson is just an hour from the Mexican border and a popular shopping center for smugglers.

Detty notified ATF - the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. To his surprise, ATF told him to go ahead with the big sale and sent an undercover agent to watch. ...

According to Atkisson, "gunwalking" may not be limited to border towns.

She said, "We have found allegations of gunwalking in at least 10 cities in five states, so this apparently was not isolated to Arizona."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/05/earlyshow/main20115824.shtml

And the CSGV believes we need to give the BATFE/DOJ etc. MORE authority.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Powerslave Six Six Six
06:43 PM on 10/05/2011
I wonder if the Joyce Foundation pays by the word, or if Josh is on a monthly retainer?
08:45 PM on 10/05/2011
Annual or bi-annual grant.
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10:46 PM on 10/06/2011
The Joyce Foundation (Not what the NRA gun lobby pretends.)

Mission Statement

The Joyce Foundation supports efforts to protect the natural environment of the Great Lakes, to reduce poverty and violence in the region, and to ensure that its people have access to good schools, decent jobs, and a diverse and thriving culture. We are especially interested in improving public policies, because public systems such as education and welfare directly affect the lives of so many people, and because public policies help shape private sector decisions about jobs, the environment, and the health of our communities. To ensure that public policies truly reflect public rather than private interests, we support efforts to reform the system of financing election campaigns.
01:07 PM on 10/07/2011
Donating to schools and public works projects and the arts? Fantastic, we need that. Literally our society needs billionaire philanthropists to do that kind of stuff.

Fighting any piece of our Bill of Rights? Sorry Joyce Foundation, you don't get my support because of that.
05:35 PM on 10/07/2011
And they give millions of dollars each year to organizations that advocate restrictions on firearm including those that support unconstitutional ones beyond the 2A. This also includes paying media sources to produce propaganda and universities to create 'studies' w/ predetermined results.

http://daysofourtrailers.blogspot.com/p/anti-gun-primer.html
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Drama Llama
06:10 PM on 10/05/2011
I am strongly for the rights of individuals to have guns if they so wish. I do believe it is a right protected in the Constitution. I am a gun owner and wish to remain being one. That being said... I refuse to join any organization with a wackjob like Wayne LaPierre running the show. Obama has been the softest Democrat on gun laws we have seen in ages. Yet LaPierre attacks him as if the very second he is re-elected he will take all our guns from us the next day.
07:36 PM on 10/05/2011
Then check out the Second Amendment Foundation and whatever your state level organization is.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Drama Llama
09:51 AM on 10/06/2011
Thanks... I had not heard of the Second Amendment Foundation. Checking out their site now.
09:22 PM on 10/06/2011
But I wonder what his tone would have been like had Heller V DC in 2008 decided that the 2nd amendment does not guarantee and individual right? I just wonder...
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
01:19 PM on 10/05/2011
Right now, as we speak, er, text, I'm sitting at a table at the "Fabulous Fifties" restaurant in Cocoa, Florida having lunch and just outside my window is a big billboard announcing, "GUN SHOW - Melbourne Auditorium - Sat. & Sun. - October 15th - 16th" I'll take pic of it and post it under "A Sign of Freedom".
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Rooster Coburn
Less Gov't + More Responsibility = A Better World
01:05 AM on 10/06/2011
Here's the link to the "Sign of Freedom", enjoy.  You won't see signs like this in the formerly great Britain or in France or Germany or the former Soviet Union.
http://tinyurl.com/3qesfv2
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
RDWidner
A Libertarian by nature. A free man by act of God.
07:59 AM on 10/05/2011
“"Firearms stand next in importance to the constituti­on itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independen­ce … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensa­ble … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interferen­ce — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States
11:46 AM on 10/05/2011
Check your facts before you post false quotes, especially before you try and misquote a founding father dude:

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Washington
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
RDWidner
A Libertarian by nature. A free man by act of God.
01:49 PM on 10/05/2011
Your first link is broken and the second one does not contradict what I posted. Perhaps it is you that should check your facts.
06:50 PM on 10/04/2011
CSGV's 'Insurrectionist Timeline' (conveniently starting right after McDonald v DC, an expansion of civil rights) NOT updated w/ protesters calling the US gov't the 'Enemy'.

But U.S. Rep. Joe Walsh (IL-08) made the list.

Is there any sort of objective qualifications to be put on the list outside of Ladd Everitt's personal bigotry?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
LC Scotty
03:44 PM on 10/05/2011
I'm sorry, you used "objective" and "Ladd Everitt" in the same sentence. Your internet privileges are revoked.
07:37 PM on 10/05/2011
Hey, I put qualifiers in between.
05:04 PM on 10/04/2011
We get it Josh. You think guns are bad and gun owners are bad people. Your only goal with your organization is to demonize gun ownership and those who support it. It's getting old, but at least you are honest about it. Unfortunately for you, you on the wrong side of history. It must be hard when all your 'reports' have to be twisted in order to fit your goal.

Truth and information wants to be realized. You can't stop it.
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11:19 PM on 10/06/2011
Not at all "stonewalker."

Most American gun owners aren't interested in or belong to the NRA. Most American gun owners are responsible citizens who care about their communities. Americans ought to be more aware of the NRA and its Board Members and what they are about. After all, the NRA has gained a lot of political clout and that makes a difference in all our lives.

The NRA has interests other than public safety for our communities.

There is a minority of gun owners in the USA that Wayne LaPierre and NRA board member Ted Nugent consider their base: it is more of a gun cult. Wayne and Ted are on speaking tours throwing Red Meat to their base with grotesque tales to get them all stirred up and anti-President Obama.

What do you suppose is the meaning of this Wayne LaPierre statement? Does "marshalling ... collective power" have a "militia" ring to it? What does "unelect" mean in this context?
There are elections, but I've not heard of "unelections." What on earth is the "anti-gun owner axis"? Is LaPierre implying "evil axis?"

Gun owners must begin marshalling our collective power to unelect not only Obama and his crowd, but to unelect his anti-gun-owner axis in Congress." [NRAPublications.org, accessed 9/28/11]

I may be wrong, but I think Wayne LaPierre is playing to some warrior fantasy the gun cult likes.
11:43 PM on 10/06/2011
The NRA started lobbying for the 2nd amendment when people started assaulting it, I support them because of that. However, I freely admit that they use fear-mongering in their fundraising tactics. And yes, LaPierre is absolutely embellishing in the jargon he uses, it doesn't appeal to me and I don't really care if it does to other people.

One thing about the NRA and Obama, if Heller had gone the other way, you know gun control would have been ramped up by Obama and the rest of the anti-gun politicians.

Why did you put my moniker in quotes?
12:54 PM on 10/07/2011
DW, in regards to Florida's law, there could be many reasons for the hike in JH. For example, before the law passed, there were likely many cases where somebody could have shown a gun or fired in self-defense but instead wound up in the "murder victims" statistic instead of JH. I appreciate that you say statistics can sometimes be innacurate, but the real problem is in stastical analysis, behind every claim with statistical analysis, the methods should really be published as well as the doubts.

Again, perhaps this is a difference in worldview between you and I, but I would much rather a person feel OK using force against a perceived attacker. Your fear with this law is that there will be and have been bloodthirsty people with guns just looking for a chance to use them. You are trying to control for humanity or morality. This is something that really isnt' controllable. Our governments don't have the resources, and even if they did it would require a police state in order to enforce that kind of control.

(cont'd)