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Josh Sugarmann

Josh Sugarmann

Posted: May 20, 2009 05:25 PM

Congress Says Yes to Guns in National Parks


If the champagne being quaffed by consumer groups and others in the wake of House passage of a bill aimed at limiting deceptive and abusive credit card practices has a slightly bitter aftertaste, it's probably because they're sharing a magnum with the National Rifle Association. In its ongoing efforts to open up every possible space in America to gun toting, the NRA succeeded in attaching to the credit card bill legislation allowing loaded guns in National Parks and Wildlife Refuges (legislation passed on the Senate side contained similar language).

College presidents. Business owners. City mayors. Now you can add park rangers and other national park employees as the latest additions to the list of those whose knowledge and expertise have been trampled in the wake of the NRA's bullying efforts to remake America in its own image. After all, as the NRA's Wayne LaPierre says, and a majority of Congress seems to agree, "the guys with the guns make the rules."

This dangerous provision will put park park rangers, visitors, and wildlife at extreme risk. Don't believe me? Listen to the people who actually work every day to protect our nation's parks and their visitors.

John Waterman, president, U.S. Park Rangers Lodge, Fraternal Order of Police:

One should ask, what do guns have to do with credit cards? We are disappointed that congress chose to disregard the safety of U.S. Park Rangers, the most assaulted federal officer, and forgo the environmental process set up by them to assure the protection of our national parks. If signed by Obama, this will clearly be a change in the president's rhetoric towards taking better care of our environment and protecting federal employees.

Theresa Pierno, executive vice president, National Parks Conservation Association:

We are disappointed in the members of the House and Senate who allowed this amendment to pass, as well as President Obama. By not taking a stand to prevent this change, they have sacrificed public safety and national park resources, in favor of the political agenda of the National Rifle Association. This amendment had no hearing or review, and will increase the risk of poaching, vandalism of historic park treasures, and threats to park visitors and staff.

Bill Wade, chair, executive council,Coalition of National Park Service Retirees:

Passage of this legislation that would allow firearms of all kinds in national parks is an absolute travesty. There is simply no need for it, given the extremely low risks that visitors face in national parks compared with everywhere else. Legislators who voted for this Amendment now have to live with the fact that they have, in fact, increased the risk to visitors and employees, as well as the risk to wildlife and some cultural resources. Moreover,they've just contributed to diminishing the specialness of this country's National Park System. We hope the American people register their disappointment in the actions of these legislators.

Sorry guys. You didn't get the memo. The guys with the guns make the rules.

If the champagne being quaffed by consumer groups and others in the wake of House passage of a bill aimed at limiting deceptive and abusive credit card practices has a slightly bitter aftertaste, it's...
If the champagne being quaffed by consumer groups and others in the wake of House passage of a bill aimed at limiting deceptive and abusive credit card practices has a slightly bitter aftertaste, it's...
 
 
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01:51 PM on 05/26/2009
Guys with guns do not make the rules, THE CONSTITUTION DOES! The right to keep and bear SHALL NOT be infringed. Simple, easy to understand English. Put criminals in prison and leave them there. Law abiding citizens DO NOT commit crimes simply because they own a gun. CRIMINALS commit crimes. Blaming inanimate objects for peoples actions is beyond idiocy.
01:36 PM on 06/01/2009
Only thing is--people like the BC and VPC ignore the BOR based on fear and a desire for power
01:27 PM on 05/24/2009
Great! Now I need to worry that if I complain to the drunk in the next camp site about the loud noise, he may pull a gun on me.

Congratulations, NRA, you just turned a strong supporter of gun ownership and the right to bear arms in to a skeptic.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
02:25 PM on 05/24/2009
You need not worry any more than you did before. Firearms were allowed in national parks in the past, they simply had to be unloaded. Back before the 1980s, loaded firearms were allowed.
Loaded firearms have been allowed in state parks and national forests all along with very few problems.
04:24 PM on 05/24/2009
So you worry about walking the streets in 48 states that allow Concealed Carry?

I highly doubt you were a "strong supporter of gun ownership and the right to bear arms".
08:34 PM on 05/22/2009
For those who missed the debate between Melanie Hain and Bryan Mill of CFNJ...

http://www.lildobe.net/gallery2/v/PAFOA/Meleanie/SFN+on+Lyn+Doyle.flv.html

Enjoy. I recommend some popcorn and cocoa.
07:17 PM on 05/22/2009
Guns in the parks is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard of & one of the dumbest acts we could allow to pass! This whole thing stinks. It really & truly does. What is going on with our new president ... does he not understand what's at stake (the lives at risk) when loaded guns are introduced into such public settings as national parks? Has Pres. Obama already forgotten his speech in the Rockies of Colorado, supporting gun laws & restrictions in order to maintain the priority of public safety? Does he NOT CARE that so many Americans support restrictions on concealed carry of firearms in our federal parks, including rangers & conservation officials? Where is Pres. Obama's integrity on this issue? Has it gone out the door, along with efforts to resist the dangerous political agenda of the NRA?

What a disappointment!
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
08:03 PM on 05/22/2009
Loaded firearms are allowed in far more populated public settungs with no real problems. There is no valid reason to prohibit them from national parks when they are allowed in state parks, national forests, shopping malls, etc.
08:19 PM on 05/22/2009
Don't worry yourself. The NRA is a paper tiger, Paul Helmke said so.

As Odinseye already stated, I can carry my firearm into a movie theater, a shopping mall, a grocery store, a bank, a day care center and any state park already. Concealed or open carry is perfectly legal in all these places and more RIGHT NOW for me.

Allowing me to carry a firearm in a National park will cause a problem how?

Just for reference, I had to get finger-printed by the local LEO's, take a training class(after shooting for 25+ years) and pass a background check at the county level, the state level, the federal level and the international level through interpol.

Allowing me to do something INSIDE a national park that I am already able to do legally OUTSIDE a national park will not produce the mayhem you envision.

BTW, you voted for Obama, didn't you? The Brady Campaign endorsed Obama, didn't they?

Don't blame me for guns in parks, I voted for McCain.
08:09 AM on 06/17/2009
Bravo, kaveman4!
03:56 PM on 05/22/2009
Not only did Obama sign it, there was no mention in his signing statement stating his opposition to the addendum.

Hopey Changey.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
08:04 PM on 05/22/2009
He knows that if he made any mention of it in a signing statement, it would just fan the flames.
05:58 PM on 05/27/2009
What Kelli fails to understand is that hers is the minority position--the amendment allowing guns in parks would never have survived in a Democrat controlled Congress and signed into law by a gun ban supporting president from Chicago if gun control was not such a LOSING PROPOSITION
03:24 PM on 05/22/2009
"ongoing efforts to open up every possible space in America to gun toting" What a novel concept, being able to exercise Constitutional RIGHTS in most every location! If that was not the case, would we need licenses to read/post on the internet? Or print newpapers? Or even vote against those in office???
The line of reasoning in this article is TOTALLY missing the fact America is a FREE nation (well we are still trying, no thanks to those in office today and in the recent past) and is just yet another attempt to attack the great, FREE lifestyle our forefathers fought so we could enjoy.
I trust the author will NOT be partaking in the upcoming holiday as it was for those who defended our freedoms, not those who attacked them - like he is doing.
03:06 PM on 05/22/2009
I voted for Obama but this bill is not the kind of change I can believe in. A provision to allow psychopathic gun toting morons to take their weapons into national parks is insane and has no place in a credit card bill. The sole purpose of a gun is to kill something with. What is there in a national park that anyone has to kill? There are park rangers to take care of bears that people have offended and they should be the only ones allowed to have weapons.
For Obama to sign this bill is an insult and an affront to everyone who put him in office. This is not change, it is the same old BS that has been taking place in Washington for hundreds of years.
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
04:15 PM on 05/22/2009
"psychopathic gun toting morons" will take their firearms into the national parks regardless of the law; after all, they are psychopaths.

"The sole purpose of a gun is to kill something with."

Never seen a Hammerli 106/162 pistol, have you? If the sole purpose of a firearm is to kill, than 99% of them are being misused.

"What is there in a national park that anyone has to kill? "

Bears, mountain lions, psychopaths....

"There are park rangers to take care of bears "

Not always.


Firearms have not been a problem in state parks or national forests.
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HUFFPOST PUNDIT
Dimensio
I just don't know what went wrong!
01:21 AM on 05/23/2009
The amendment added by Senator Tom Coburn makes no reference to psychopaths. I believe that you have been misinformed, or that you are lying.
01:11 PM on 05/22/2009
Obama HAS SIGNED the bill--proof of the continuing decline of the BC and the VPC
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02:53 PM on 05/21/2009
I've never had a problem with any animal even two legged ones in a National Park. I have seen reports of people being robbed in nearby forrest , and parks. But to assume it will never happen to me is naive. So if I carry a gun in a National forest or sitting in the next booth to you at some cafe. You will never even know I have a gun.
Local Police chief in plain clothes , sitting in a cafe, that was robbed at gun point. Sat quietly till robbers were gone and called in a discription, They were caught leaving the City.
The press demanded to know why he did nothing. He said " you think i'm going to start a gun fight in a crowded cafe, and get people killed ? Are you crazy? " Good job Chief !
This true story carries some common sense that Anybody carrying a gun Anywhere should take to heart.
05:32 PM on 05/21/2009
I've never had a house fire, but I'm still glad I have smoke alarms.

I'm also glad I have car insurance even though I don't plan on getting into an accident.

Just because never experienced something up to this point doesn't mean taking precautions against it isn't a good idea.
07:21 PM on 05/22/2009
Olmossy ~ I can guarantee you, that if you are standing next to me ~ or anyone in my family or circle of friends, for that matter ~ in any U.S. national park & you're 'packing heat' (law or no law), we'll leave right then and there ... and spend our hard earned dollars & valuable time visiting someplace else. You who wish to carry loaded guns in our parks won't suffer. It'll be the parks & tourism that suffer, mark my words!
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
08:09 PM on 05/22/2009
"I can guarantee you, that if you are standing next to me ~ or anyone in my family or circle of friends, for that matter ~ in any U.S. national park & you're 'packing heat' (law or no law), we'll leave right then and there "

If I am standing next to you , you would be blissfully clueless as to whether I am carrying or not.

But if you feel you can not trust me with a firearm, then by all means, please leave so that less paranoid, more friendly people can have your spot.
08:28 PM on 05/22/2009
"I can guarantee you, that if you are standing next to me ~ or anyone in my family or circle of friends, for that matter ~ in any U.S. national park & you're 'packing heat' (law or no law), we'll leave right then and there "


What would you do if instead of a National Park, it was at

1. A movie theater
2. A bank
3. A grocery store
4. A day care center.
5. The sidewalk.
6. An Auditorium where you were doing a dance routine
7. Burger King
8. The non-secure area of an airport
9. A kosher deli
10. A carnival

I could easily go on but I've made my point.

If you don't want to be around people carrying concealed firearms, then stop going to all of the places listed above for starters.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
DaveNYC
02:35 PM on 05/21/2009
Actually, the guys with the guns don't make the rules, even if Wayne LaPierre makes a joke about it. Congress makes the rules, and members of Congress are elected by voters.

The revision at issue was a prodcut of deliberate legislative action. The rider was a rider -- a common legislative practice -- but it was by no means "hidden" or the product of some "surprise." Congress followed democratically enacted rules in attaching that rider to the the bill, and Congress followed democratically enacted rules when it voted that amended bill into law. Contrary to your characterization of the legislative process that takes place under our Constition, "the guys with the guns" did not simply impose their will on an unwitting American people.

Your citation to comments from lobbyists who for whatever reason were paid to oppose the rider are inapposite to anything. For every statement of opinion in opposition to the rider that you can cite, I can cite a statement of support.

The passage of this rider underscores a fact of political life in America: gun control is a losing proposition. The only people who care enough to speak with their vote are pro-gun. Supporting a gun control measure creates many enemies and few friends, and just the same, supporting a pro-gun reform creates many friends and few real enemies.

Far from your characterization, the reality is that this bill is the product of the democratic process and reflects the expressed will of the people.
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03:08 PM on 05/21/2009
No it never was the guys with guns that make the rules , or cops and soldiers would both get paid a lot better. Its the golden rule==The guys with Gold , Rules .
allamericanboy
One of the original nattering nabobs.
01:22 PM on 05/21/2009
All right, all right. I see we have very divergent world views here. I will surely seem naive to some, but it's managed to get me through my 58 years just fine. When planning to visit a National Park, I don't have to give a thought to the meth labs or evil pot growers, frankly even bears or wolves. I just go and enjoy the park. Did see a bear one time. He left me alone. Did some of you even read this blogpost? Many executives and workers in the parks think people bringing guns in will be problematic -- but some here have a better idea, it seems. I still say it's bat guano crazy.
01:50 PM on 05/21/2009
I guess the allamericanboy has a problem understanding that just because HE has not had a problem with criminals does not mean that others share the same experiences--I have had to stop multiple criminal attacks and having a firearm helps
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c2morow
Insight, not incite...
10:12 PM on 05/21/2009
With all due respect (seriously) to your post, one has to question its validity. I work with Public Safety on a daily basis and many, many career officers will tell you the last resort is to pull a firearm, unless you are SWAT, Narcotics or other high risk departments. Most officers go their entire career without firing their sidearm other than on the range. So, either you need to reasses where you live, reasses where you hang out, or, you are exagerating. I grew up on farm out in the middle of nowhere and the only time I ever fired my weapons was on an innocent Jack Rabbit, Dove or Deer hunting, or pinging cans down at the pit. But, I respect the fact that just because I didn't, does not mean you haven't. It just seems a little strange that you have so many encounters. Are you an Officer of the Law? I mean, the statistics on home invasion on the average person are very low.
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molonlabe
Before you ban it, at least learn what it is.
02:37 PM on 05/21/2009
Your good forture simply does not trump another's right to protect themselves. I had to draw my weapon once while mountain biking in a state gameland area because I inadvertently startled a black bear hiding out in the tall grass. Luckily a few high pitched screams (pucker factor) scared the bear away and I never needed to fire a shot. But at that precise moment, when a 200+lb bear is standing on hind legs grunting, your 58 years of good fortune doesn't mean bat guano to me.
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c2morow
Insight, not incite...
10:22 PM on 05/21/2009
See, again, the validity of this is questionable. Had you educated yourself on the surroundings of where you were going to be, and the wildlife in the area, you would have known that the last thing you want to do is pull a personal protection sidearm on a bear. Any Ranger will tell you that the worst thing to do is try to plug a bear with anything less than a high powered rifle, or a .44 magnum handgun, and then only at least 50 yard away. Anything less is only going to pi$$ off the bear. And, the fact you were on a bike, you should have turned tail and hauled a$$. I have taken wilderness classes and they never advocate confronting a bear or any other large carnivore. You will always lose. Get educated before you go hiking/biking, camping in a specific area. Rangers will almost always recommend a repellent before a handgun. And if you are wondering, I live in the Sierra Nevadas, where bear encounters are above average for bikers, hikers and campers, and this is the advice they give.
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01:19 PM on 05/21/2009
I have never understood how it can even be legal to attach something like this gun legislation to a bill that has absolutely nothing to do with guns. Who gets to decide to attach it? Is there no way to detach it?

Can we do away with whatever law makes it possible to attach ANYthing to bills so that our lawmakers actually vote only on the bill that is before them?
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
01:50 PM on 05/21/2009
"I have never understood how it can even be legal to attach something like this gun legislation to a bill that has absolutely nothing to do with guns"

It is called a "rider" and is a horrible practice.

"Can we do away with whatever law makes it possible to attach ANYthing to bills so that our lawmakers actually vote only on the bill that is before them?"

Efforts have been tried in the past and failed. It is actually a commonly cited justification of line item veto powers.
02:06 PM on 05/21/2009
For what it's worth.

The gun portion was voted on seperately in the House and still passed by a huge margin.

In this case, it wouldn't have made one bit of difference.
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molonlabe
Before you ban it, at least learn what it is.
01:09 PM on 05/21/2009
""The National Park Service says there were 116,588 offenses in national parks in 2006, including 11 killings, 35 rapes or attempted rapes, 61 robberies, 16 kidnappings and 261 aggravated assaults."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-guns23feb23,0,1267373,full.story


Sorry, but just ONE killing or rape or robbery or aggravated assault justifies my choice to exercise my constitutional right.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Paulied
12:41 PM on 05/21/2009
This should cut down on all the Old Faithful peeing.
12:05 PM on 05/21/2009
Josh, as usual you don't understand the basic issue. You think having a gun is a privelege. It is NOT. It is a RIGHT. Congress can NOT tell ANYONE if they can have a gun - it is none of their business. And if there is anyplace this RIGHT should be excercised, it is in any public place. Otherwise, your RIGHT is in jeopardy.

I suppose you want the government to tell you where and when to speak, and what to say too. I suppose you want the governmet to control all of your RIGHTS.

As soon as the guns are gone, the fascism moves in. We need our guns to protect us FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
12:13 PM on 05/21/2009
Sugarmann is demanding the same debunked solutions he always does
allamericanboy
One of the original nattering nabobs.
12:16 PM on 05/21/2009
I would just like to know who conceived this insane idea. If anyone wants to have a gun, fine, I think that's constitutionally sound. But what is in a National Park, for god's sake, that scares them so much they've got to be toting if they go there? Bat guano crazy.
12:22 PM on 05/21/2009
little things like pot farms, meth labs and other illegal activity that innocent hikers can accidently come across--in case you have not noticed--drug dealers don't like strangers
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OdinsEye
Korean-Latino cop and retired military combat vet
12:54 PM on 05/21/2009
Why should a person with a valid CCW permit have to disarm when they cross into a national park?

"But what is in a National Park"

Bears, mountian lions, wolves, people....