Scott Roeder: Latest Guy With a Gun Who Made the Rules

What do Scott Roeder, the alleged killer of abortion doctor George Tiller, Richard Poplawski, arrested in April for ambushing four police officers in Pittsburgh, killing three and injuring one, and Wayne LaPierre, the executive vice president of the National Rifle Association all have common?

They all believe that "the guys with the guns make the rules"--the rallying cry LaPierre offered attendees at this year's CPAC convention. LaPierre's red-meat statements to pro-gun activists--cynical, incendiary bafflegab designed to anger up their hearts and open up their wallets--has effects that go far beyond the NRA's own political and financial interests. The NRA likes to brag about its alleged four million members and its ability to sway a compliant Congress with the merest hint of displeasure. But when asked whether it should ever be held accountable for the effect its language (both as potential instigator and chronic validator) has on the fringe of American gun ownership its public response is a surprised, "Who, me?"

On the rare occasions when it has been called to account--for example, when during the Clinton Administration it stated that the "final war has begun" and former member Timothy McVeigh took the organization at its word, blowing up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City--the organization has made slight tacks in its language (so long "final war," hello "culture war") but has always retained the disparate combination of bullying and paranoia evident in LaPierre's words

The danger lies in the literal interpretation of LaPierre's statement and the NRA's publications. According to the Wichita Eagle, "Those who know Roeder said he believed that killing abortion doctors was an act of justifiable homicide." The Eagle also reports that Roeder had at one time been a member of the anti-government "Freemen" movement. Poplawski feared the Obama administration would ban his guns. According to news reports, "One friend, Edward Perkovic, said Poplawski feared 'the Obama gun ban that's on the way' and 'didn't like our rights being infringed upon.'"

Right now there is a consensus that our nation--from the president down to the cop on the beat--is at increased risk of violence from extremist organizations. And each time a smoldering ember sparks resulting in death and injury, the question that should be asked is who is fanning the flames?

Comments

[Thirdpower]

23 Attorney Generals say enforce the rules already on the books before making more. These are the guys that are charged w/ enforcing the rules.

On June 11, the top law enforcement officials of nearly half the states signed a letter to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, expressing their opposition to reinstatement of the federal ban on semi-automatic firearms.

"We share the Obama Administration's commitment to reducing illegal drugs and violent crime within the United States. We also share your deep concern about drug cartel violence in Mexico. However, we do not believe that restricting law-abiding Americans' access to certain semi-automatic firearms will resolve any of these problems," the letter said.

The letter notes congressional opposition to bringing back the ban, and calls for increasing enforcement of existing laws.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=4971

[Jadegold]

link between roeder's group and NRA:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/militia_sep.htm

[hent85]

" relative to the moderate Mack ( the sheriff) to the far more extreme Freeman" who the NRA voted back in the 1996 as law enforcement of the year. Isn't Roeder an extremist not a moderate.. Read the whole article which was written in 1996 and this article from Sugarmann do not link Roeder to have been told killing the doctor was justifiable homicide. Justifiable homicide by law is defending your self from immediate danger to your life were no possibility of stopping the assailent is available other then using deadly force. Roeder going to church to shoot the doctor is not justifiable homicide it's murder.

Mao" Political power is at the barrel of a gun"
Thomas Pain" Give me Liberty or give me death"
Ghandi " Sometimes you have to fight evil" refering to Hitler
Could Roeder have read these qouts not just Wayne Lappeirre which Roeder isn't qouted as using to justify his act.

FDR " ...a day which will live in infamy" encouraging American soldiers to fight the Japanes who were called with the derogatory term Nip and allowed the president to rationalize the internment of all American Japanes. This speech had link to violence but the one from Wayne Lapeirre has none since there are many books including the founding fathers writtings that can be used to justify a deranged persons act. According to the CDC video games have influence on people to act on violence.

[Bandofotters]

Cute! Associating the killer of an abortion doctor to the NRA. What make of car did he drive to the church? What's the difference? Lets just blame the UAW ! If the guy wore a mustache we could compare him to Hitler or Stalin.

[Franklee]

Hitler=You lose. You probably didn't get that.

[Thirdpower]

Note who it is that resorts to violence when things don't go their way:

http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/06/04/vandalism/

[anambrose]

Every gun show and gun shop I've been to are loaded with Buy Now Obama's Gonna Take Away Your Toys! Seeing various weapon oriented magazines laying around all had pleas and paranoia spewing the same crap about americans losing their 2nd Amendment Rights. So go out and stock up now is the new mantra. All this is the same medicine show huckster fleecing their flocks while the fleecing is good. Its propaganda's so blatant one can only conclude that these sheeple like being fleeced. The problem is they don't take out their frustrations on each other which would employ some Darwinian balls as their brothers in arms would shoot back resulting in many dead and wounded. No they pick a safe scapegoat better yet have a scapegoat presented to them as a sacrifice so they can go down in history as heroes to the cause. It is terrorism perpetrated by the very people who claim special privilege whining all along that its the government that's terrorizing them. Its a delusion which at best is sincere denial. It is corrosive it is a cancer and it and its spewers have no shame or conscience because they have lost or never learned or were taught what being a human being means. We are responsible not only for what we create but what we participate in and allow. So yes the trigger puller is 100% responsible for the act and so is the one who sold him the weapon straw purchase.

[OdinsEye]

"and so is the one who sold him the weapon straw purchase."

And your proof that it was a straw purchase is?

[OdinsEye]

Barack Obama, 2003 questionaire:

-----------------

35. Do you support legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of
a. handguns?

While a complete ban on handguns is not politically practicable, I believe reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns are necessary to protect the public safety. In the Illinois Senate last year, I supported a package of bills to limit individual Illinoisans to purchasing one handgun a month; require all promoters and sellers at firearms shows to carry a state license; allow civil liability for death or injuries caused by handguns; and require FOID applicants to apply in person. I would support similar efforts at the federal level, including retaining the Brady Law.

b. assault weapons?

Yes.

c. ammunition for handguns and assault weapons?

I would support banning the sale of ammunition for assault weapons and limiting the sale of ammunition for handguns.

[OdinsEye]

From the White House website between January and May 2009:

"Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent. "

[hent85]

Sugarmann did have the youtube. " our founding fathers understood the guys with the guns make the rules" Wayne Lapeirre. If our founding fathers did not fight with guns would we have our Constitution and Bill of Rights. Could our founding fathers gotten the same freedoms by non violent protest. Non violence works only in government with a concience which Roeder, Poplawski and muslim convert Bledsoe did not understand that our governement is what is now. I corrected myself but still doesn't take the fact that did Roeder and Poplawski say the NRA made them do it.

[We-Are-The-Ones]

You are wrong.

The Revolution required guns.

Creating the Constituion and the Bill of rights required level-heads, compromise and diplomacy.

[hopefullee]

Well said.

[hent85]

There was an attachment to this post which apparently didn't get accepted. Where am I wrong that the founding fathers used guns to liberate themselves from the English King who would not listen to the protest of the citizens of the colonies that is undisputed history.

You probably confused my explanation of non-violent protest which Ralph Waldo Emerson said " works only in a government with a concience". Meaning a government that listens to the opinions and wishes of the voting population unlike the despots and kings who do as they wish. The three shooters did not understand that our current government has a concience so there is no need to resort to violence.

[violettefemme]

Exactly, and those guns were not weapons of mass destruction, they fired one bullet at a time.

I've yet to hear about a school getting shot up back then, is all I'm saying.

[djkrlsn]

And Josh ignores that the NRA tends to be harder on gun violence and felons with guns than either the BC or the VPC--he and Helmke will say anything to demonize the NRA--and the less truth involved the better

[violettefemme]

And exactly how they are "harder" on it? With empty, meaningless, spun thin as string words they don't really mean?

[rob2007]

NRA Exec VP LaPierre is the leading proponent of the "Obama's going to take your guns away" fear sales tactic. He daily puts out directives that We The People must fight any and all firearms legislation because "it'll only be the beginning," despite the innumerable times both Obama and AG Holder have stated they want "sensible" regulations such as closing the gun show loop hole, and are not interested in taking away the hunter's and the sportsman's guns.

LaPierre ignores all of this and brazenly throws out his "total ban" mantra to his easily led and paranoid acolytes. His interest is financial; as head mouthpiece for the NRA he boasts four thousand new members a month, and the highest total membership in the organizations long and what once was distinguished history . The organization is so successful that now they are giving away one-year memberships knowing the signees will re-up for Year Two.

LaPierre and his lieutenants have placed the reason for the high increase in gun sales upon Obama, saying he's the "best gun saleman ever," when in reality it is they who are stoking their baseless firearm prohibition fear that is fueling these mind-blowing sales.

As a firearm owner for over forty years, I have yet to see the NRA ever take a position of culpability in any shooting. Please enlighten me and offer one citation to support your claim.

[SonofLiberty1]

This is yet another case of a seriously mentally ill individual­...one who should have been in a mental hospital..­.NOT getting treatment.­..getting a gun and killing.

We need a vastly improved care for the mentally ill and we need to make sure that people who are seriously mentally ill...

NEVER GET A GUN.

[OdinsEye]

All that had to happen was for a judge to declare him mentally deficient.

[hopefullee]

We don't know his mental state. All we have right now is rumors.

[darker]

Guns are just tools.

But TOO MANY " guys with the guns " are angry, violent dimwits
with NO SELF CONTROL and even LESS COMMON SENSE.

Legislators and others who allow those types to have guns
endanger everyone's safety.

America's "a free country".
Those GUYS ARE FREE TO KILL.
Are you "free" to die?

[kaveman4]

Um, last time I checked, murder was still illegal.

[JerseyCity]

I'm surprised that Joshy doesn't do a post about how Obama is a shill for the NRA.

NRA membership is up due to Obama.

Gun sales are up due to Obama.

Gun safety class registration is up due to Obama

(2 and 3 can help ensure future gun owners)

Firearms manufacturing is the only industry running DEEP in the black due to Obama.

The current nominee to the Supreme Court is rallying firearms manufacturers stock, again due to Obama.

What's the point? The gun industry is experiencing all kinds of growth, again due to Obama.

So VPC logic dictates that Obama is the *NRA!!!

*as in National Rifle Association, not National Restaurant Association, or National Recover Act.....

[gdcb1128]

First-good article, but I do have one issue I'd like to address-

"What do Scott Roeder, the alleged killer of abortion doctor George Tiller..."

"But when asked whether it should ever be held accountable for the effect its language,.­.."

Language is a big pat of the problem and we need to be careful of others defining words that we then use. What I mean is, when all the headlines refer to Dr. Tiller as the "abortion doctor," we take part of the responsibility for the problem. My understanding is that Dr. Tiller was so much more than an "abortion doctor." From those that knew him, he was a kind compassionate doctor who cared about women's health. It's the same as when we refer to anti-choice as pro-life. I am very much pro-life as well as pro-choice. I hope we all become more careful with the implications of our language choices.

[gdcb1128]

typo-- "big part", not pat

[kaveman4]

What do you really expect from those who use the term "assault weapon" when describing everything from pistols to carbines to muzzle loading firearms used in the Civil War greater than 1/2 inch?

[TheLearnedEnglishDog]

no one does that

[rob2007]

Using muzzle loading firearms to make your point hurts your cause by rendering you obtuse.

[dan-o]

It's kind of sad how the anti-gun people do not ever mention the fact that crime in general is down and gun deaths as a percentage of the population has decreased dramatically.

[darker]

the population decreases
due to GUN VIOLENCE.

Hey, it's the right-wing's POPULATION CONTROL!

[Thirdpower]

That's nice. Now let the grownups talk.

[OdinsEye]

Um.... did you even read the post you responded to?

[Hastings1066]

Talk about an extreme left wing slant

[ProfessorDuh]

A completely empty screed there. Try being specific in your criticisms, and citing evidence.

[Hastings1066]

extremist organizations - Would that include organizations like the Black Panthers carrying billy clubs and shouting racial epithets at polling stations - like the ones Eric Holder said were too irrelevant to prosecute - those extremist organization?

[OdinsEye]

According to some, the Boy Scouts of America are an extremist group. Why just look at their oath:

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Yep. It says the evil "G" word, advocates laws other than federal, and says "morally straight", an obvious dig at gays. They MUST be extremists!

[SonofLiberty1]

I hope that you are being sarcastic right?

[LindaCat]

Sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself - for the enjoyment of all.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article160061.html

[MrBoBo]

"The Guys with the guns are children who have never grown up"
Wayne LaToilette

[hent85]

MrBoBo, al those cops with guns shouldn't be enforcing the laws we have in this their too immature in knowing the complexity understanding laws. I think guys who are afraid of guns don't have the confidence in handling an instrument that takes alot of responsibility and training unlike just opening your mouth. Handle a gun wrong you can kill innocent people.

[djkrlsn]

And you don't get them to get the training by disarming people with clean records

[RumiSouth]

About those NRA membership numbers:

It is impossible for any legitimate gun owner to get access to a shooting range more than once or twice without joining the club. And ALL clubs are certified by the NRA, therefore ALL of them require NRA membership of the club members.

IOW, if you want to practice shooting your firearms you have no choice but to be a member and receive their propaganda. If that were not the case, I have no doubt the membership would be a fraction of what it is.

[OdinsEye]

"It is impossible for any legitimate gun owner to get access to a shooting range more than once or twice without joining the club. And ALL clubs are certified by the NRA, therefore ALL of them require NRA membership of the club members."

Absolutely 100% incorrect.

1. Many shooting ranges are not "clubs"

2. Of the shooting ranges which are "clubs", only a fraction of them require membership in the NRA

[OkieIntellectual]

I'm with dogbane on this one. I don't know where you go shooting but I have never been to a range that requires an NRA membership. Not all gun-owners are all gung-ho about the NRA, often because of the very language this article talks about. Personally, I own firearms and I am all for gun-owner's rights, but I have never been an NRA member, nor would I until they clean up their act, get their fingers out of politics, and get back to espousing the spirit that the organization was founded on.

[djkrlsn]

Okie--part of the reasons that the BC and VPC don't have political pull is because the NRA IS IN POLITICS

[kaveman4]

"It is impossible for any legitimate gun owner to get access to a shooting range more than once or twice without joining the club. And ALL clubs are certified by the NRA, therefore ALL of them require NRA membership of the club members."

Point 1...false
point 2...false
point 3...false
point 4...false

Just where DO you live???

[djkrlsn]

According to a friend who was at the NRA meeting last month--people are joining at almost 100,000 a month