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Judge H. Lee Sarokin

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What Are the Real Issues Now That George Zimmerman Has Been Arrested and Charged?

Posted: 04/12/2012 4:52 pm

Charges finally have been brought against George Zimmerman as I believe (and wrote) they should have been from the outset. The shooting was undisputed, and his claim of self-defense was sufficiently in dispute to warrant further proceedings. Although I have been critical of the police for failing to do so at the time, a further examination of the OK Corral-Stand Your Ground legislation might better help to understand their plight. The statute warns law enforcement officers that they may not arrest a person for using force unless they "determine that there is probable cause that the force used was unlawful." That admonition is followed by a remarkable intimidation provision that if a court finds the defendant immune, "the court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income and all expenses incurred by the defendant in any civil action brought by a plaintiff."

Bear with me on this. What does that provision mean? Following so closely on the heels of the warning to police officers, does it mean that they can be held liable in civil court, if they decide wrong? In other words, could they be held liable in damages if they had a good faith belief that probable cause existed? Or does it mean that if the Trayvon Martin family sued George Zimmerman that they could be liable to HIM, if the court found that Zimmerman had acted lawfully under the statute? Or both? The statute either deprives law enforcement of their traditional immunity if they act in good faith in pursuing charges, or it discourages wrongful death suits in this type of situation in a totally unorthodox fashion -- or both. If nothing else, this statute and others like it need a fresh look.

So putting aside this bizarre statute, what is likely to happen next is a bail hearing and a hearing on a motion to dismiss on the self-defense claim. I expect bail with appropriate surety and conditions will be granted because of Mr. Zimmerman's voluntary surrender and failure to flee since the incident. As to the stand-your-ground defense, I have written previously that Mr. Zimmerman must come forward with evidence to support that claim. That assertion met with a boatload of derisive comments that as a former judge I should know something about the presumption of innocence and the government's burden of proof. When it comes to affirmative defenses, a defendant cannot merely say "I acted in self-defense," "I have an alibi," or "I was insane at the time." Some minimum threshold of evidence must be presented in order to support the defense and require the government to rebut it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Here, the killing by George Zimmerman is conceded and admitted. To assert standard or statutory self-defense, he must offer some evidence beyond the mere assertion. The presumption of innocence and the government's burden to prove guilt and, in effect, rebut the defense beyond a reasonable doubt remains throughout. So how will that be determined here? In essence, the case will come down to a question as to what each "reasonably believed." If the proof should demonstrate that Trayvon was the first to strike Zimmerman, the question will be whether Trayvon reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself. The fact that he was being followed (or possibly chased) by a strange large man who did not identify himself will certainly be a substantial factor.

The same analysis will be necessary for Zimmerman's state of mind. Assuming that Trayvon was the attacker, did he reasonably believe that shooting Trayvon was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself? The extent of his actual injuries will be extremely relevant. Of course, he has an advantage here as the sole survivor, and his testimony on the subject must be weighed with that in mind. He has an obvious motive to lie. Of course, if the evidence reveals that Trayvon was not the aggressor and Zimmerman shot him nonetheless, the defense cannot prevail.

What I think poses the most difficult question is if both were in reasonable fear of the other. Suppose Trayvon did attack Zimmerman and was justified in doing so, because he reasonably believed that he was in danger. Then Zimmerman too, reasonably believed that he was in danger and responded by shooting Trayvon. The statute provides that justification "is not available to a person who initially provokes the use of force against himself unless the person has tried to escape or has indicated clearly to the other (in this case Trayvon) that he has no intention to use force. So the question will be whether Zimmerman was the initial aggressor and whether he ceased to be and made his intentions clear to Trayvon. There can be little doubt that Zimmerman set these events in motion, but it is obvious that the roles of aggressor and victim can change as circumstances change. Whether they did or did not here will depend on the facts as they are developed.

Thus, despite what has been reported regarding what led up to the confrontation, disposition will depend upon what actually happened at the moment of the confrontation as reasonably seen through the eyes of the two participants. Lurking in the background is the question of racial bias. It not only goes to the question of whether it should constitute a federal crime, but whether or not Mr. Zimmerman's racial views, if any, caused him to be suspicious, to follow Trayvon and ultimately decide to shoot him. The case is not easy, but it is now going to be tried in the justice system where it belongs -- not in the media.

 
Charges finally have been brought against George Zimmerman as I believe (and wrote) they should have been from the outset. The shooting was undisputed, and his claim of self-defense was sufficiently i...
Charges finally have been brought against George Zimmerman as I believe (and wrote) they should have been from the outset. The shooting was undisputed, and his claim of self-defense was sufficiently i...
 
 
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03:04 PM on 04/17/2012
George Zimmerman will probably and unfairly be railroaded. And that is a damn shame.
11:49 PM on 04/15/2012
I think the real issue here is, how can we monetize this frenzy?

;-{
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Karissa36
Saving lost boys and fighting pirates.
12:12 AM on 04/15/2012
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_documents/zimmerman-affidavit.pdf

Let's consider the ethics, or lack thereof, of Prosecutor Corey, as evidenced by the Affidavit she filed.

"The police dispatcher informed Zimmerman that an officer was on the way, AND TO WAIT FOR THE OFFICER."

The dispatcher ASKED Zimmerman if he wanted to meet the officer. The dispatcher agreed the officer would call Zimmerman when he arrived. Nothing was said about waiting. Zimmerman was given no instructions on what to do until the officer arrived.

"When the police dispatcher REALIZED ZIMMERMAN WAS PURSUING MARTIN, HE INSTRUCTED ZIMMERMAN NOT TO DO THAT and that the responding officer would meet him."

There is a significant difference between pursuit and following. Pursuit evidences an intention to catch someone, following does not. The words of the dispatcher were, "Are you following him?" The dispatcher did not ever "realize" Zimmerman was pursuing Martin.

The response of the dispatcher was, "We don't need you to do that." That is not an instruction to do anything. The officer meeting was at the request of Zimmerman, and not an instruction.

"Witnesses heard people arguing and what sounded like a struggle."

A struggle incorrectly suggests Trayvon was trying to get away. Failing to include that it was a fight with injuries is a lie by omission.

Prosecutor Corey couldn't even produce this shoddy Affidavit without lying.
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racerrodig
04:28 PM on 04/15/2012
What ?? How about, Officer I was attacked at my truck..............right......the one 400 feet over there. Please. Just over-analyze the least important issue.
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Karissa36
Saving lost boys and fighting pirates.
08:22 PM on 04/15/2012
The stories I have seen in the press were that Zimmerman continued on foot after he hung up with the dispatcher, to check a street sign to see what street he was on. (Recall that the dispatcher asked him this, and he didn't know the answer.) After reading the street sign, Zimmerman says he was attacked as he was walking to return to his car. We have no idea how far Zimmerman was from his car when the call ended, where the street sign was, etc. At a minimum, surely you have noticed the media coverage has been astonishingly inaccurate, so I wouldn't put too much credence in their reporting.

The truthfulness, or lack thereof, of the Prosecutor's Affidavit is astoundingly important, since the Prosecutor does not have the option to lie. The fact that she did lie supports that Zimmerman is being railroaded for political reasons, and that is not justice by any stretch of the imagination. Trayvon's legacy should be the questioning and hopeful change of this SYG law, not a bitter resentment of unequal treatment created by an angry mob, uncaring of either the facts or the law. Trayvon's memory is in serious danger of being lumped in with the Duke lacrosse case, and that is not an outcome anyone would welcome.
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Bipitybopityboop
03:59 PM on 04/14/2012
It is yet to be seen whether or not Zimmerman broke any of Florida's (screwed up) gun laws, but it is quite obvious that he broke a globally understood law of a civilized society. That is, you don't leave the safety of your home grabbing a gun on your way out, chase down, confront and shoot an innocent unarmed neighbor and GET AWAY WITH IT by claiming self defense. You just don't do that.

What Zimmerman did was most likely racially motivated but it also goes beyond race into basic human decency and self control. Citizens are not supposed to go around with guns chasing down people they don't like the look of. Citizens are not supposed to act like rogue evil police officers and when they do the REAL police officers are supposed to arrest them, investigate the crime and put them in front of an impartial judge. Everything about this situation has been anarchy, everything from Zimmerman overstepping his bounds as a neighborhood watchman to the police acting as judge and jury to the Black Panthers putting up a bounty and Mike Tyson calling for black on white violence.

The Stand Your Ground law is anarchy. And just look at how our society has reacted to that. Stand Your Ground must be repealed immediately.
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JimInHouston
Arma virumque cano...
06:54 PM on 04/14/2012
"That is, you don't leave the safety of your home grabbing a gun on your way out, chase down, confront and shoot an innocent unarmed neighbor and GET AWAY WITH IT by claiming self defense. You just don't do that. "

Good thing that's not what happened.
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racerrodig
04:30 PM on 04/15/2012
Well, according to Karissa36 even the prosecutor is now making stuff up. Gee !!
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nawseeya
"the only thing more terrifying than mother nature
12:11 AM on 04/16/2012
OMG!! thank you for saying that more civilly than i could EVEr
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Dennis Santiago
Asymmetric Provocateur
02:47 AM on 04/16/2012
By the same token, the unreasonable imposition of the duty to withdraw doctrine is acceptance of unrestricted terrorism by criminals upon the law abiding. Yes when a violent crime is attempted upon one's person that is a moment of anarchy imposed by the criminal. To act to defend oneself in such circumstances does not seem unreasonable. Bear in mind that these laws were originally created in response to situations where people were (a) finding themselves on their own to defend themselves and (b) being criminally prosecuted for making the decision to defend themselves. To remove them reinstates the absurdity that made them necessary in the first place. What I find most odd is that people are blaming these laws while complaining about socio-political ills that exist regardless of these laws. Repealing them won't change that. To fix social ills, one needs to focus on those social ills. This notion that SYG repeal is a panacea just leads to criminals having the upper hand again. I for one prefer living in a country where that is not the case.
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nawseeya
"the only thing more terrifying than mother nature
12:06 AM on 04/17/2012
?To remove them reinstates the absurdity that made them necessary in the first place."

there it is in a nutshell.
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E4B32787
US Gov: The best that money can buy.
03:12 PM on 04/14/2012
In this case, some key evidence has been released to the public in the form of the 911 calls. On 911 call #3, someone can be heard calling for help for 45 seconds and then a shot was fired, and the voice is never heard again. The woman that called the police said she was calling because of the cry for help, so it had to have been carrying on for more than those 45 seconds.

I've seen a Zimmerman's father interview where the father claims it was George hollering for help. On the "Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report" file made available for a while, an officer states “While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state "I was yelling for help, but no one would help me" ...”

Meanwhile the affidavit of probable cause states that Martin's mother identifies the voice hollering for help as Trayvon.

Science will have to be the tie breaker on the voice issue. I think that the whole case turns on that issue. If it turns out that the voice hollering for help is Trayvon, I don't think stand your ground is going to work for George, given his concern on his own 911 that these [people] always get away, and his pursuit of Martin, also heard on the 911 call.
06:50 PM on 04/14/2012
I agree that the voice analysis of the scream for help is critical. I claim no knowledge of voice analysis procedures but perhaps Zimmerman will attempt to reenact the screams so the two recordings can be compared with each other to determine if the voices are the same. If it turns out that GZ was the person screaming for help and not TM as Corey has alleged, Corey's case will suffer a fatal blow. In fact, because the identity of the person screaming for help is in dispute, Corey should have waited for the voice analysis before charging GZ.
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E4B32787
US Gov: The best that money can buy.
08:25 PM on 04/14/2012
I'd be willing to make a small wager that she has the voice analysis. Remember, she's only going to disclose her cards in court, and to the defense, by discovery. I think there was a request granted to seal the records in the case until trial which is when we'll probably find out.
There was this article:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-20120331_1_voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty
"It's not George Zimmerman crying for help on 911 recording, 2 experts say".
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Karissa36
Saving lost boys and fighting pirates.
12:24 AM on 04/15/2012
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=676362&songID=11548279&showPlayer=true

This is an interesting clip of the tape slowed down to half speed. There seems to be a new voice immediately after the shot.
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JimInHouston
Arma virumque cano...
06:56 PM on 04/14/2012
"Science will have to be the tie breaker on the voice issue. "

Who was yelling is not that important. What IS important is that Z was sustaining injuries consistent with his story and consistent with the need to apply self defense.
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E4B32787
US Gov: The best that money can buy.
08:31 PM on 04/14/2012
I think the yelling is going to be everything, since it's going to identify the person being assaulted versus the person doing the assaulting. And it's also going to be important if Zimmerman told the police he was the one doing the yelling, because if he did, and that turns out to be a lie, then that's going to damage the credibility of the rest of his statements.
12:17 PM on 04/15/2012
I believe if it goes to trial this will be an issue, but it will be a battle of the experts--it won't be hard to find an expert that challenges the conclusion made by the two people who said it wasn't Zimmerman.

Nothing conclusive--just two opinions, which is what expert opinions are anyways.

Regardless of who it is screaming in the 911 call --it doesn't tell us who started the altercation and what transpired during the missing minute--which IMO is key.
11:46 AM on 04/14/2012
The real issue is that a small minority in this country don’t value The Peoples Fundamental Right to Keep and Bear Arms and work to deny gun ownership. Gun ownership is up and as popular as ever. Shall Issue Concealed Carry laws have spread to nearly every state and National Reciprocity has passed the House and is moving to the Senate. The Second Amendment Foundation is litigating cases in an attempt to push the issue to the Supreme Court in order to repeat the Heller and McDonald victories for Keep and create victories for Bear. All but 7 states have some form of Stand Your Ground or Castle Doctrine law. We don’t yet know exactly what happened in this case. If the worst is true, that Zimmerman stalked and killed an innocent teen, this will still not change the fact that The People have a Fundamental Right to lawfully defend themselves from violent attack. The Stand Your Ground Laws provide protection to people who lawfully defend themselves from politically motivated prosecution and its associated financial burden. Anti-gun, zero tolerance, “arrest them all and let a jury sort it”, prosecutors and judges have used the system to create a “chilling effect” on ownership and have made these laws necessary and popular.
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E4B32787
US Gov: The best that money can buy.
03:47 PM on 04/14/2012
Stand your Ground doesn't concern people's rights to keep and bear arms. Rather, it addresses the issue of whether someone should take another human life, if a viable alternative exists, such as retreat is available, and answers in the affirmative.

Self defense precedents have always been available in cases where retreat wasn't viable. I think this law, which places a lesser value on human life is sociopathic.

It also seems to legalize the duel. "Stand your ground". "No, you stand your ground". "Ok, on the count of three, draw ... one, two, three ...".

Maybe get a TV show going, the duel of the week.
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JimInHouston
Arma virumque cano...
06:58 PM on 04/14/2012
"Rather, it addresses the issue of whether someone should take another human life, if a viable alternative exists, such as retreat is available, and answers in the affirmative. "

Incorrect interpretation of the law.

"Self defense precedents have always been available in cases where retreat wasn't viable. "

But have not been reliable.

". I think this law, which places a lesser value on human life is sociopathic. "

On the contrary, the old law which places a lesser value on the VICTIM's life would deserve that appelation.
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09:19 PM on 04/24/2012
It actually puts a greater value on the life of the person being attacked, that is the entire point of it.

To your second point, the Florida statute deals with that scenario.
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nawseeya
"the only thing more terrifying than mother nature
12:25 AM on 04/16/2012
this will still not change the fact that The People have a Fundamental Right to lawfully defend themselves from violent attack

apparently not in THIS case.
02:29 AM on 04/16/2012
You mean Trayvon Martin didn't have the right to defend himself?
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Debanne
Indentured by the struggle
07:47 AM on 04/14/2012
Zimmerman staged this killing. He knows how the SYG law works.
01:11 PM on 04/14/2012
Be sure to tell the DA.
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racerrodig
05:06 PM on 04/15/2012
I doubt he staged it, BUT he knew how to take advantage of it. Except he forgot that in this day and age people just might say ".....what.......wait, run that by me again" and send petitions to us and make people aware of what is going on. 50 years ago he'd have gotten away with it, not in this computer age.
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02:25 AM on 04/14/2012
"Of course, if the evidence reveals that Trayvon was not the aggressor and Zimmerman shot him nonetheless, the defense cannot prevail."

Actually FS 776.041 provides that Zimmerman could claim self defense even if he were the aggressor, if either:
- He was in imminent peril and could not escape
- He broke off the attack but then Martin attacked him.
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Judge H. Lee Sarokin
Retired after serving 17 years on the federal cour
11:33 AM on 04/14/2012
Michael - And I repeat; If Trayvon was not the aggressor (did not attack or hit Zimmerman) and Zimmerman shot him anyway, the defense cannot prevail. How does what you cite contradict that?
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michelleobamaok
Tampa Crookpalooza 2012!
12:57 PM on 04/14/2012
Thank you, Judge. Your input is much needed and appreciated.
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02:56 PM on 04/14/2012
Well, it's been a few hours, so let me try posting again.

One can hit someone without being the aggressor. According to FS 776.041, the aggressor "Initially provokes the use of force against himself."

Suppose Zimmerman was the aggressor, but Martin fought back. Suppose he ended up on top of Zimmerman, so Zimmerman could not escape and reasonably feared for his safety.

Then, according to FS776.041, Zimmerman, even though the aggressor, would be justified in using deadly force against Martin.
01:12 PM on 04/14/2012
How could either of those provisions apply unless Martin was an aggressor?
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02:17 PM on 04/14/2012
I explained in a reply to Judge Sarokin, but HP ate my post. An 'aggressor', according to FS 776.041, is someone who "Initially provokes the use of force against himself." Someone may fight back and not be an aggressor.

Zimmerman may have provoked the attack, and hence been the aggressor. Martin could have hit or attacked Zimmerman in response, and not have been the aggressor.

If Zimmerman was the aggressor, but Martin fought back successfully enough that
- Z reasonably feared for his life
- Z couldn't get away
Then Zimmerman, the hypothetical aggressor, is allowed to use deadly force against Martin, the hypothetical non-aggressor.
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02:23 AM on 04/14/2012
" If the proof should demonstrate that Trayvon was the first to strike Zimmerman, the question will be whether Trayvon reasonably believed that such force was necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself. "

that would indeed be relevant were Martin on trial. 776.013 requires only that Zimmerman was attacked, and 776.041 requires only that Zimmerman did not provoke the attack. Martin's beliefs, reasonable or not, are not germane.
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Judge H. Lee Sarokin
Retired after serving 17 years on the federal cour
11:46 AM on 04/14/2012
Michael - Sorry-you are wrong again. If it is determined that Trayvon reasonably believed that he was in danger and responded by defending himself---that would make Zimmerman the initial aggressor and the provisions of the statute that you cite above would come in to play regarding the duties and rights of the initial aggressor. That is how someone would determine whether or not Zimmerman "provoked the attack" which you concede is relevant.
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01:15 PM on 04/14/2012
I see your point. But might not Martin reasonably believe himself to be in danger even though Zimmerman did nothing to provoke this fear? For example, Martin sees Zimmerman's weapon. Martin reacts by grabbing for the gun. Reasonable fear? Perhaps. But then Zimmerman has an even more reasonable fear for his own safety. See the Trevor Dooley case.

I don't know the case law on 776.041, but your interpretation sounds like a recipe for disaster. I should think 'provocation' requires some overt act on the part of the provoker.
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02:47 PM on 04/14/2012
I replied a few hours ago, but apparently it got eaten.

You propose a subjective criterion for provocation - whether Martin reasonably felt threatened by by Zimmerman. This is presumably based on Florida case law. Can you cite some cases?

Here's why it seems unlikely to me on the face of it.
- Judges, including yourself, I am sure, do not like to introduce subjective criteria where this is not clearly written into the law.
- Is it *sufficient* to say that Zimmerman provoked Martin that Martin had a reasonable fear for his safety, even if Zimmerman made no overt threatening act? Is it sufficient that an armed Zimmerman confronted Martin in the dark? This is a recipe for disaster. Remember that we are arguing circumstances where Martin would be justified in attacking Zimmerman first instead of running home. Surely Zimmerman would have to do something overt to merit the use of deadly force.
- Is it *necessary* that Martin feel a reasonable fear for his safety in order to count Zimmerman as having provoked him? Surely not. If Zimmerman hits Martin first, then that should count as provocation, even if Martin, in his youth, feels no particular fear.
09:41 PM on 04/13/2012
Here is a lawyer from the other end of the political spectrum from Dershowitz denouncing the probable cause affidavit: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/295984/where-s-probable-cause-john-r-lott-jr
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markspence
10:25 PM on 04/13/2012
"It is no surprise that Corey avoided the grand jury."

Last line. If true that she did seek to avoid a grand jury, it makes sense.
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Karissa36
Saving lost boys and fighting pirates.
11:06 PM on 04/13/2012
Thank you for the link. I hope the Judge in this case has enough guts to dismiss this clearly deficient charge, and Zimmerman sues the Prosecutor and the State for false arrest.

Basing the charge on a mother's claim to what she heard, on a tape of a cell phone recording a fight outside the home, instead of the unbiased witness who was standing next to the people fighting, is beyond outrageous. Keep in mind this mother hired an attorney, to sue for monetary damages in a wrongful death claim, before her son was even buried. Both parents have now quit their jobs, clearly expecting a financial bonanza in the near future. The father heard the same tape, and said it was not his son.

The other primary witness for the Prosecutor is a poster child for perjury. She only gave a statement to the parent's attorney, who was hired to pursue a wrongful death case for monetary damages, 23 days after the shooting, and AFTER the 911 tapes were released so she could be coached on how to lie. Then she refused to talk to the police, Prosecutor, or FBI.

The Prosecutor deserves to be sued. Mob justice is no justice at all. Anyone who thinks this case is somehow healing a racial divide is seriously incorrect. It has created one, by forcing the arrest of man who legally should never have been arrested.
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BlairCase
11:54 AM on 04/14/2012
Interestingly, the girlfriend's statement says Trayvon wasn't wearing his hoodie when Zimmerman became suspicious of him. According to ABC News, the girlfriend testified that, "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on." The news media isn't dropping the hoodie theme, of course, because even the news media only pretends to regard the girl's statment as anything other than an improbable fantasy.
01:16 PM on 04/14/2012
If I were the judge or DA here, I would recognize that the state has a critical interest in laying this case out to the public, as transparently as possible.

ALL THE EVIDENCE OUT ON THE TABLE.

And nobody is going to sue any DA.
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Peter007
06:16 PM on 04/13/2012
The judge presents a biased and one sided view of these circumstances. Its evident that the judge is against the law because of the problems he sees with it. His politics clouds his judgement

Next he contends that Zimmerman needs substantial injuries before he can claim his life was at risk. Would the judge only allow a knife in the heart or for an individual be be knocked unconscious before those injuries are severe enough to claim "life at risk " ?

There was a face to face confrontation and even though there is very little evidence as to who started the fight, Zimmerman has more evidence than the prosecutor who is set now on defending Trayvon.

Two is more than zero. The prosecution has zero evidence that Zimmerman attacked the teen.
Zimmerman has physical injuries.
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Sundae Driver
"The path to youth takes a whole life." (Picasso)
08:01 AM on 04/14/2012
What physical injuries? Negligible physical injuries. What other evidence--as you claim--does Z have?

Isn't it within the realm of possibility (and perhaps even likelihood) that when Z wouldn't let up following T that T, not knowing who this man was, tried to defend himself? Z was told to leave him alone and persisted. Don't you think a judge/jury would find the fact that he continued to stalk T to be held against Z? You're presuming too much while not knowing all the evidence to this point.
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gleannfia
11:40 AM on 04/14/2012
F & F
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BlairCase
12:02 PM on 04/14/2012
A person doesn't have to sustain serious injuries to claim self defense. He need only show he had reasonable cause to fear he might sustain serious injuries. Two witnesses told police they saw Martin slamming Zimmerman's head against the sidewalk as Zimmerman screamed for help. Many jurors might agree a person having his head slammed against a concrete sidewalk might reasonable fear serious injury. According to the police report, Zimmerman ahd a bloody nose and was bleeding from cuts to the back of his head. The police called paramedics to treat his injuries. A doctor told Zimmerman his nose was broken (There might be x-rays.) All these people will testify, if necessary, if the prosecution contends Zimmerman wasn't injured. However, it's unlikley that the prosecution will even argue the point. It will probably want to pass over the injuries as quickly as possible.
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Sundae Driver
"The path to youth takes a whole life." (Picasso)
10:22 AM on 04/14/2012
Re your pending reply: And here I thought you were somewhat objective. I was wrong. You wasted my time. Adieu.
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Shawn Longino
05:57 PM on 04/13/2012
The real issue is that a person should be held accountable from the moment he shoots someone until he is exonerated, if such is the outcome. That is the failure of the police practice in Sanford.

"Self defense" has to be proven, not taken at face value by the police. And the fact that the man whoso terrified Zimmerman was black-- should not have to be such a huge part of the public perception.

Because of this "stand your ground" law,Trayvon would have had an equally valid reason to walk free after minimal police questioning.

But how many black men have been able to claim that excuse with such perfect acceptance from the polic force?
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BlairCase
06:16 PM on 04/13/2012
The Tulsa shooting spree provides a parallel with the Trayvon Marin case. The black man who shot and killed Jake England father in 2010 was never charged with the shooting because he successfully claimed self defense. The case deomonstrates that self defense laws work for blacks who kill whites as well as whites who kill blacks.
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Shawn Longino
03:05 AM on 04/14/2012
Ah, you are correct. Although "Works" isn't the word I would choose, really considering the unresolved issue caused Jake English to feel justified in going on a killing spree of his own.

And in this case, I think Zimmerman was justifiably in fear for his own life, since the public could not witness that justice would be served by the law.

I think the repercussions of the "Stand Your Ground" laws are too repulsive for American sensibilities, in the long run.
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michelleobamaok
Tampa Crookpalooza 2012!
01:08 PM on 04/14/2012
What you leave out of this equation, is that Jake England was killed after busting into his killer's apartment, and knocking him to the ground with a stick.

THAT is self-defense.
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02:30 AM on 04/14/2012
As has been pointed out, FS 776.032 says that the police cannot make an arrest in a homicide where self-defense has been claimed until they have probable evidence that the claim is false. By law, they have to "take it at face value" until they have evidence to the contrary.
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Shawn Longino
03:06 AM on 04/14/2012
Ah, thank you. It ought to be simple, right? But somehow--it doesn't work out that way.
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michelleobamaok
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01:10 PM on 04/14/2012
But "they" didn't look for any evidence. They neither took pictures of Zimmerman's "injuries" nor sent him to the immediately to the hospital for a bashed in head and broken nose.''

He was able to leave the police department with all of the clothing and evidence on his person.
05:57 PM on 04/13/2012
Judge Sarokin makes several statements that are either legally incorrect or misleading.

First, if he is going to be convicted Zimmerman most likely would be convicted for manslaughter. Unlike many states Florida’s manslaughter statute (782.07) doesn’t require the killer to have acted with any mental state e.g. malice, negligence etc. The state need only show the killer caused the death AND THE KILLING WASN”T JUSTIFIABLE according to section 776 (which includes the infamous SYG). In other words, contrary to Sarokin’s assertion SYG is not an affirmative defense it is part of the statute's definition as to what is or isn’t manslaughter.

Second, although not explicitly stated, Sarokin implies that the defendant has some non-minimal burden of claiming justifiable homicide under SYG. This is true at a pre-trial hearing to seek immunity. Here the defendant would have the burden of showing by the preponderance of the evidence that he acted in accordance with SYG. However, at trial the defendant only has to introduce enough evidence to show a plausible possibility he acted in self-defense, at which point the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn’t act in self-defense

Third Sarokin claims it will come down to what each “reasonably believed”. This is wrong. Florida uses an objective standard of reasonableness. This means it will be up to the jury to determine whether Zimmerman acted reasonably in light of the circumstances known to Zimmerman at the time. Zimmerman’s or Martin’s subjective perceptions are irrelevant
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Judge H. Lee Sarokin
Retired after serving 17 years on the federal cour
06:32 PM on 04/13/2012
jdsetelecom - Let's be fair. Although I agree that Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter and not 2nd degree murder, he was charged with the latter and there is no provision under that charge that the state must prove "the killing wasn't justified". Furthermore I have never suggested anywhere that the ultimate burden will not be upon the state to rebut the claim of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. I have said that unless the defendant produces some evidence (in addition to the claim of self-defense) there will be nothing for the state to rebut. But this whole conversation serves no purpose because we know what the defense will be; we know that there will be evidence of self-defense, and I certainly expect that the defendant will move to dismiss on that basis. Finally, your statement about reasonable belief is absolutely correct, and I fail to see where I have said anything different.
07:56 AM on 04/14/2012
I focused on manslaughter for two reasons a) In Florida it is a category 1 lessor offense charge to 2nd degree murder-meaning unless the parties waive it the jury will be instructed on manslaughter b) if one only wants to look at the 2nd degree charge then SYG is probably irrelevant. Based on public evidence there is no way a prosecutor can show Zimmerman had the depraved mental state REQUIRED for a conviction.

True, you never explicitly stated the burden on the state would not be to rebut self defense beyond a reasonable doubt (that's why I used the term misleading). However, the amount of attention you gave to it might lead some non-lawyers to believe that a defendant at trial would have to demonstrate not only more than an assertion, but some non-minimal level of evidence (say preponderance of the evidence) Actually, all Zimmerman initially has to do is raise some doubt that he might have acted in self defense i.e. he doesn't have to prove he wasn't the aggressor (by the way following a person-without more-doesn't amount to provoking an attack)

Finally, you stated "In essence, the case will come down to a question as to what each "reasonably believed." ". You may have intended to convey they needed to follow an objective standard but that certainly sounds like an interpretation where Zimmerman could get off if he actually but irrationally thought Martin was about to hurt him-a subjective standard
10:09 PM on 04/13/2012
Thanks for the explanation. Are you a lawyer in Florida? In order to show "the plausible possibility he acted in self-defense" at trial, would he have to testify or is there another way? The only way, at present, I can imagine the prosecution proving beyond a reasonable doubt that that it wasn't self defense would be to produce scientific evidence that the gun was a few feet from Martin when fired.
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02:37 AM on 04/14/2012
The judge got carried away. The burden of proof for an affirmative defense is on the defense. Z must show a preponderance of evidence favors self-defense. The prosecution must show that this burden has not been met. Realistically the prosecution must provide evidence that it was not self-defense, but it does not have to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

BTW, in the very first successful use of the SYG law as a defense, the defendant shot an unarmed man from several feet away, and it has by no means been unusual since.
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02:48 AM on 04/14/2012
The judge got carried away. The burden of proof for an affirmative defense is on the defense. Zimmerman must show by a preponderance of evidence that his use of deadly force was justified under FS776.012/.013. Realistically, the prosecution must show evidence that it did not, but it doesn't have to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt.

BTW, in the very first successful use of FS776 to claim self defense, an unarmed man was shot from several feet away. Florida courts have provided a lot of leeway in deciding what counts as a "reasonable belief" that one's life is in danger.
05:27 PM on 04/13/2012
By lighting a candle you can amplify our voices and grow stronger in number, courage, and creativity, and end guns violence, now.
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Karissa36
Saving lost boys and fighting pirates.
11:12 PM on 04/13/2012
So you prefer the violence of beating people's heads into the sidewalk? Better their brains should spill out onto the concrete than that a bullet should be fired?
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gleannfia
11:46 AM on 04/14/2012
Where are the photos of these injuries? We only have Z's word on any of this, and he has very motivation to lie. We will find out at the trial, should there be one.
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Veneita
If trolls had minds, they wouldn't be trolls
07:36 AM on 04/15/2012
Unproven by anything other than the words of zimmerman through his friends. I am mist amazed by the suppose dialogue, internal and external that went in in this brief struggle and zimmerman's ability to remember it. Typically in these situations, the adrenalin makes it hard to remember,
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Elijah A Alexander Jr
Elijah NatureBoy
05:18 PM on 04/13/2012
One thing can't be changed is the dispatcher told Zimmerman not to pursue Trayvon before any engagement took place. Zimmerman had to believe himself above the order of the dispatcher to do it, which would really make it first degree, but since there was no Grand Jury Murder 2 should be undisputed. The cause of the infraction was he refused to obey the dispatcher that took self convincing to perform, therefore there's no getting around that mountain.
06:14 PM on 04/13/2012
He did obey the dispatcher. He stood down. Or have you just disregarded the facts.?
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Elijah A Alexander Jr
Elijah NatureBoy
06:27 PM on 04/13/2012
What fact? When the dispatcher first told him to stand down he didn't but continued to pursue him, then Trayvon saw him and began to run with Zimmerman running after him, according the the tapes. Then the dispatcher told him a second time to stand down after hearing him breathing hard in the chase.
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Patricia Hollister
12:59 AM on 04/14/2012
No, that is not a certain fact. Listen to the call again; GZ continues following.
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BlairCase
06:18 PM on 04/13/2012
The police have pointed out that Zimmerman had no legal obligation to follow the adivce of the police dispatcher. It wasn't a legal order. It still unclear whether he did follow Martin afer the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that." He answered "Okay." Remember that it's the prosecution that alleges Martin continue to follow Martin. They will have to prove that in court.
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Elijah A Alexander Jr
Elijah NatureBoy
06:42 PM on 04/13/2012
911 Dispatchers are authorized to give advice in such cases. Since he had been known to follow and harass people the dispatcher having such knowledge should have been authorized to tell him to stand down. According to the tapes Zimmerman was hear breathing hard as in a chase and told a second time to stand down. Then Zimmerman lost track of him before the contact.
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michelleobamaok
Tampa Crookpalooza 2012!
10:04 PM on 04/13/2012
That's why the police chief has had to step aside. Answers such as this one. He speaks of Zimmerman as if he is a law enforcement officer. Why call the police if you are not going to do as advised?

He shot the boy all within five minutes of talking to the dispatchers and the arrival of the police to the crime scene.